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Rian Johnson "I don’t really think in terms of universes or in terms of creating worlds or whatever. That’s not that interesting to me."

Hinedorf

Banned
JJ, despite making a copy, at least set the story. Rian "the cunt" Johnson threw all of that out the window and decided to fuck making part 2 of a trilogy and made space balls 2 instead.

He's a cunt.

 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
that fucking ego lol

however, with that being said, looking at the recent trilogy, especially after RoS, he's not the source of the problem. Yeah, he fucked up and deviated big time, but he shouldn't be allowed to do so in the first place. The root of the problem is up top at Disney where KK had no fucking what they are doing, thus allowing this mess to happen in the first place.
What they should ahve done generally and Im not even sure it was done for 4/5/6 because they had different directors as well, is sit down and come up with a cohesive story that can branch all 3 movies and even tie in the rest of the trilogy. JJ went off on his own to do his own thing same with Rian and then JJ again. It was a colossal fuck up on everyones part and not just one person or director.
 
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DKehoe

Member
He's saying plot and characters are more interesting starting point for him than worldbuilding. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. It doesn't seem at all radical. But some people are just going to shit over whatever he says.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Im not even sure it was done for 4/5/6 because they had different directors as well
the original films had a changing story but George was always figuring out places for it to go. there were like 4 rough drafts before the first version of the first film. he had a good 4 years of writing and rewriting the story over and over in different ways. he had prequel ideas, "padawan learner", Luke as a girl, Luke as an old hermit, Han as an alien, ROTJ's Ewok planet battle (with Wookies), tons of ideas all before even starting to shoot the first movie.

you see a lot of "It was always made up!" takes and they push a false narrative that George was just winging it the entire time. that's not true. yes the story changed and altered but he was always working on new ideas. this is why he pushed the idea of a 6/9/12 film franchise as early as 1979. Lucas was always thinking ahead. where the story was going was always a concern for him.

Rian apparently wasn't think ahead at all. at least JJ tried to come up with some new characters and mysteries. not a single thing in Last Jedi is a jumping off point that makes me want to know more.
 
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TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
the original films had a changing story but George was always figuring out places for it to go. there were like 4 rough drafts before the first version of the first film. he had a good 4 years of writing and rewriting the story over and over in different ways. he had prequel ideas, "padawan learner", Luke as a girl, Luke as an old hermit, Han as an alien, ROTJ's Ewok planet battle (with Wookies), tons of ideas all before even starting to shoot the first movie.

you see a lot of "It was always made up!" takes and they push a false narrative that George was just winging it the entire time. that's not true. yes the story changed and altered but he was always working on new ideas. this is why he pushed the idea of a 6/9/12 film franchise as early as 1979. Lucas was always thinking ahead.

Rian apparently wasn't think ahead at all. at least JJ tried to come up with some new characters and mysteries. not a single thing in Last Jedi is a jumping off point that makes me want to know more.
Lets not forget the important fact that editing also shaped how ep 4 turned out because originally it was a disaster. I feel its not a compliment to George if he planned alot of the movies and scenerios and still the prequels turned out how they were.

To be honest none of them were thinking JJ severly fucked up even with the last movie, other than the new characters stuff at least Rian tried to add depth to what was already there compared to just having paper thin people on the screen.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
What they should ahve done generally and Im not even sure it was done for 4/5/6 because they had different directors as well, is sit down and come up with a cohesive story that can branch all 3 movies and even tie in the rest of the trilogy. JJ went off on his own to do his own thing same with Rian and then JJ again. It was a colossal fuck up on everyones part and not just one person or director.

No doubt. But the dude still took a big pile of shit, threw out the plot, character building, as well as world building in the middle movie. Leaving it with zero cliffhanger or anyone giving a fuck direction. Straight shat on the Space Hefner.
 
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diffusionx

Member
Remember when Kathleen Kennedy was planning to give Rian Johnsoy his own trilogy? This was before TLJ came out, implying that Disney was so in love with the movie they basically wanted him to run the franchise.

The thing is, even if TLJ was brilliant, this quote should disqualify him from working on a franchise like SW.
 
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TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
No doubt. But the dude still took a big pile of shit, threw out the plot, character building, as well as world building in the middle movie. Leaving it with zero cliffhanger or anyone giving a fuck direction. Straight shat on the Space Hefner.
the cliffhanger which was a big one should have been the rise of Kylo with the death of Snoke, but JJ dropped the ball on that one for a guy who had to clone himself because he couldnt even lay pipe properly for being a sith overlord.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Did the people hiring him know about this beforehand? I mean, I'm sympathetic to the idea of giving writer/directors creative freedom, but when that ends up making a TLJ, I have to wonder what went on behind the scenes.
 

Airola

Member
I wonder if The Last Jedi is truly the best of the new trilogy as I can't seem to remember much at all from A Force Awakens or even from Rise of the Skywalker even though I just saw that a few months ago. Instead I remember very well Luke throwing the light saber away, Yoda burning things down, Han Solo getting killed and the white area looking like it's sprayed with blood. And Kylo killing Snoke.

The only thing I currently remember from Rise of the Skywalker is the end stuff in the cave or whatever it was.
On A Force Awakens... hmm... I remember the funny part where Kylo gets angry and the stormtroopers decide "nope" and turn away. And I remember the ending with the hero girl (whatever her name was) approaching Luke. And hey, was there some stupid jail scene where some dude had some superpower which was used only to get out of the jail a few moments later (that could've been Rogue One too - can't really remember)? Oh and I remember the terrible digital Snoke.

It really feels The Last Jedi had more memorable scenes than the others from the new trilogy.

Now that said, I don't remember much at all from the "prequel trilogy" and not too much from the original trilogy either (Return of the Jedi is the most memorable of the whole group of movies - if you don't count Caravan of Courage and The Ewok Adventure that are right up there with Return of the Jedi that I loved watching the most).
 

finowns

Member
That's bull.
TFA made incredible money for Disney and most people loved it, even though people were a bit disappointed about the rehashed stuff. After 10 years of prequels bashing it's not surprising they went that route, though.

TLJ on the other side completely burned down the franchise.
It literally ended all of those story threads that were started in TFA, because he just DIDN'T GIVE A SHIT about Star Wars.
He just wanted to do his little auteur thing, and people like you think they get snowflake points for being contrarian about it.

Here is your internet cookie.

TFA was garbage and what made Disney money was Star Wars. It’s a lucrative property being handled by the people who stumbled on the Marvel formula and think they can export that infinitely.
 
TFA was garbage and what made Disney money was Star Wars. It’s a lucrative property being handled by the people who stumbled on the Marvel formula and think they can export that infinitely.
Yeah, but
Mary Poppins Leia
ackbar getting killed and nobody cares
slow Bomber Run
'Holdo maneuvre'
The Code breaker
Canto bight parking problem
Saving horses but not kids
Tard Snoke getting killed like a buffoon
Shitty throne room fightk
kylo being a beta loser who throws a fit and whom nobody can take seriously anymore
and lots of tonally wrong attempts at humor
is the epitone of film making.

sorry, but that film really wrecked the franchise.
TroS was a pile of crap as well, but after that shit that was TLJ there wasn't much left to work with

Yeah, but it had a purple haired hag showing men their place. That's what you probably like about it the most, don't you?
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
it is funny how he keeps leaning on "the story" as if he's telling this amazing tale. every plot in TLJ was trash, not just stupidly concieved, but actively undermined by his own subversive tendencies. from the space traffic jam to the exposition heavy casino planet Ducktales episode to the ending. it's like each time something got going, he had to put a twist on it, undermining all the momentum.

the end of the movie was so insanely underwhelming to me. they are trapped in a cave. there's no way out! there are AT-ATs attacking, so they fly ships straight at them... to do something... (they didn't seem to have any affect on anything they were there to make the red lines for the movie poster). then Finn flies a ship, doing what everyone else was just doing, only now it's BAD, he's an idiot for doing it! then Luke shows up to distract the bad guys while the good guys... escape from the unescapable cave? then he dies. then someone realizes oh they can actually leave the cave after all, nevermind! the previous 20 minutes didn't actually need to happen! :messenger_persevering:

it's the kind of low stakes plot you would find in an episode of the Andy Griffith show. an intergalactic space military being unable to find their way out of a cave that is covered with some boulders.... lol.... THIS was the climax of the film??? hahaha
 
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it is funny how he keeps leaning on "the story" as if he's telling this amazing tale. every plot in TLJ was trash, not just stupidly concieved, but actively undermined by his own subversive tendencies. from the space traffic jam to the exposition heavy casino planet Ducktales episode to the ending. it's like each time something got going, he had to put a twist on it, undermining all the momentum.

the end of the movie was so insanely underwhelming to me. they are trapped in a cave. there's no way out! there are AT-ATs attacking, so they fly ships straight at them... to do something... (they didn't seem to have any affect on anything they were there to make the red lines for the movie poster). then Finn flies a ship, doing what everyone else was just doing, only now it's BAD, he's an idiot for doing it! then Luke shows up to distract the bad guys while the good guys... escape from the unescapable cave? then he dies. then someone realizes oh they can actually leave the cave after all, nevermind! the previous 20 minutes didn't actually need to happen! :messenger_persevering:

it's the kind of low stakes plot you would find in an episode of the Andy Griffith show. an intergalactic space military being unable to find their way out of a cave that is covered with some boulders.... lol.... THIS was the climax of the film??? hahaha
"Subverting expectations."
 
not gonna hate JJ, he gave us many new characters. Rey, Finn, Poe, Maz, Kylo Ren, BB-8, Snoke, etc. he invented all these characters! that's not bad. granted he is a hack but at least these are new characters.

Rian gave us, what, Rose, Holdo, DJ? lol
Holdo.

Fucking Holdo.

He managed to give us a character worse than Jar Jar Binks.

It's fucking space Brianna Wu in a nightgown.

Ackbat got blown into space for this.

What a shitshow.
 
not gonna hate JJ, he gave us many new characters. Rey, Finn, Poe, Maz, Kylo Ren, BB-8, Snoke, etc. he invented all these characters! that's not bad. granted he is a hack but at least these are new characters.

Rian gave us, what, Rose, Holdo, DJ? lol
He gave us a star wars movie that was interesting and I was intrigued what would happen next. The best action sequences of the sequels. Just bangers. Rose is shit fer sure tho.
 
So going middle ground here the SW trilogy deserves tons of hate, but I don't think Rian Johnson is responsible for any of it, he just got paid to make a movie about a universe he clearly didn't care much about which points to Disney being idiotic.
Nahh, Johnson deserves to catch some flak as well. He signed up to make the 8th movie, he knew what that meant and should've had the professionality to make a movie that respects the franchise. Of course Disney is retarded for hiring the wrong man, but Johnson could've actually tried to make something good instead of fucking around, pretending he doesn't know what's being expected of him and what the people want out of a SW sequel. Fuck him.
 

gatti-man

Member
Or, you know, hope, optimism, the power of legends/hero myths, the difference between legend and reality, the influence of lost loved ones, that no one is perfectly evil or virtuous, among many other themes the story touches on.

As usual, people who hate on this movie act like obnoxious 10 year olds. Doesn’t really make it seem like you understand the film, or even want to. People hate on TLJ because it upset their hero myth about Luke Skywalker. People literally have revisionist history that Luke in the OT was perfectly virtuous and never faltered. When really he has many moments of struggle and doubt. Another reason why the movie is so smart.
I personally don’t like TLJ because it left the trilogy with no where to go. It is small film that is supposed to be about a huge war between republic and FO. In all of space we are supposed to believe there are like 400 rebels? Really?

a movie in a trilogy should be paying attention to more than just what’s happening in that specific movie. Also the casino section in its entirety was pointless trash.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Holdo.

Fucking Holdo.

He managed to give us a character worse than Jar Jar Binks.

It's fucking space Brianna Wu in a nightgown.

Ackbat got blown into space for this.

What a shitshow.
it sucks because i love Laura Dern. she rules in Jurassic Park. she rules in Inland Empire. it's just the material. the character has no consistency. Rian wants her to be this tough as nails military commander, yet she allows Poe back onto her deck time and time again, even after chewing him out. then the scene immediately following her mutiny has her gawking over him like a schoolgirl and saying "I like him". if he wanted to do a story about a strong woman in a position of power, she could have been good at her job, which Holdo is not. Holdo made no sense. for a while i thought she was a spy, that she was this bad on purpose, that this is why she was being so secretive and letting so many people die without doing anything, and why DJ's whole "both sides" stuff was bought into the story. turns out, nope, subverted! she was good all along. all that stuff was just there in the movie for unconnected reasons, i guess.

why didn't she tell anyone the plan, when we have scene after scene in the other movies of commanders telling everyone the plan? subversion. they did it THIS way before, so he'll do it THAT way now. the problem with that kind of storytelling is, you are still basing it on the previous story. it is not new, this is why i do not like it. it is deconstructive and structuralist, it is just mixing up previous elements, it is interesting as formalism. but as a fun, inspiring, hopeful popcorn space film? it doesn't do the job.

Rose was a character born out of necessity, because Rian was unable to write for Poe-Finn. this is highly ironic, the idea that Rian was unable to write a buddy adventure between the two heroes, who most of the world was waiting to see. "I want to see Poe/Finn in a buddy comedy adventure" was the most requested thing coming out of TFA from many fans. yet Rian was unable to deliver. for some reason he was unable to come up with a decent story for two of the three main heroes to go on. there are three main heroes in the trilogy, and the director does not know what to do with two of them. that is fucking insane. why did KK hire this person to write the movie?

so Finn went off with Rose and Poe went off with Holdo. newly invented, irrationally behaving women who abuse these men mentally and physically, and constantly scold them, and actively prevent them from going on any space adventures. no wonder people did not like these characters.
 
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it sucks because i love Laura Dern. she rules in Jurassic Park. she rules in Inland Empire. it's just the material. the character has no consistency. Rian wants her to be this tough as nails military commander, yet she allows Poe back onto her deck time and time again, even after chewing him out. then the scene immediately following her mutiny has her gawking over him like a schoolgirl and saying "I like him". she made no sense. for a while i thought she was a spy, that this is why she was being so secretive and letting so many people die without doing anything, and why DJ's whole "both sides" stuff was bought into the story. turns out, nope, subverted! she was good all along. all that stuff was just there in the movie for unconnected reasons, i guess.

why didn't she tell anyone the plan, when we have scene after scene in the other movies of commanders telling everyone the plan? subversion. they did it THIS way before, so he'll do it THAT way now. the problem with that kind of storytelling is, you are still basing it on the previous story. it is not new, this is why i do not like it. it is deconstructive and structuralist, it is just mixing up previous elements, it is interesting as formalism. but as a fun, inspiring, hopeful popcorn space film? it doesn't do the job.

Rose was a character born out of necessity, because Rian was unable to write for Poe-Finn. this is highly ironic, the idea that Rian was unable to write a buddy adventure between the two heroes, who most of the world was waiting to see. "I want to see Poe/Finn in a buddy comedy adventure" was the most requested thing coming out of TFA from many fans. yet Rian was unable to deliver. for some reason he was unable to come up with a decent story for two of the three main heroes to go on. there are three main heroes in the trilogy, and the director does not know what to do with two of them. that is fucking insane. why did KK hire this person to write the movie?

so Finn went off with Rose and Poe went off with Holdo. newly invented, irrationally behaving women who abuse these men mentally and physically, and constantly scold them, and actively prevent them from going on any space adventures. no wonder people did not like these characters.
Yeah it's definitely not the fault of the actress.

Take Kelly Marie Tran. Everything I heard about her points to her being a real sweetheart. She'll overhear people talking about Star Wars, she'd walk up and introduce herself and take pictures with unsuspecting fans. Real nice, down to Earth without the snobbery found in most stars.

I feel bad she gets shit from people because somebody had to write her as a shitty chatacter. Even so, I'd totally be up to having my pic taken with her and a hug and be like, "cool, I met Rose!"

Roundhead pulled a Ladytron and 'destroyed everything he touched' in regards to SW. Dude needs a restraining order and shouldn't be allowed within 10 miles of anything Star Wars.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
i liked "Fly". it is the only thing i saw of his.

of course, it took place in a single room for the entire episode. also he did not even write it.

i'm sure he's capable of good stuff. he just wasn't the right fit for this, and his SW film is legit garbage work.
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
He directed what was the only bad episode of Breaking Bad, a practically perfect series.

That should tell you everything right there.
.....its posts like this that confirm you just have a hate boner for him. Johnson directed three episodes of Breaking Bad throughout the show's run: “Fly” (season three, episode 10); “Fifty-One” (season four, episode five); and “Ozymandias” (season five, episode 14).

Ozymandias is regarded as one of if not thee best episode of the breaking bad out of all its seasons.

Go home, your drunk.
 
i liked "Fly". it is the only thing i saw of his.

of course, it took place in a single room for the entire episode. also he did not even write it.

i'm sure he's capable of good stuff. he just wasn't the right fit for this, and his SW film is legit garbage work.
I heard Knives Out is good.

Whatever the case he royally ass fucked Star Wars to the point they could not even fix it even though JJ tried hard to appeal to fans.

At this point I just wish Disney would "canonize" the really good EU stuff like KOTOR. And by that I don't mean make a KOTOR movie but just put a virtual stamp on the good ending version of KOTOR or something but I know that's asking for waaaaaaay too much.

So, uh, have you played Star Wars Otherspace....?
 
.....its posts like this that confirm you just have a hate boner for him. Johnson directed three episodes of Breaking Bad throughout the show's run: “Fly” (season three, episode 10); “Fifty-One” (season four, episode five); and “Ozymandias” (season five, episode 14).

Ozymandias is regarded as one of if not thee best episode of the breaking bad out of all its seasons.

Go home, your drunk.
I hated that episode long before I even knew who he was and even before they released Force Awakens, but whatever you say champ.
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I heard Knives Out is good.

Whatever the case he royally ass fucked Star Wars to the point they could not even fix it even though JJ tried hard to appeal to fans.

At this point I just wish Disney would "canonize" the really good EU stuff like KOTOR. And by that I don't mean make a KOTOR movie but just put a virtual stamp on the good ending version of KOTOR or something but I know that's asking for waaaaaaay too much.

So, uh, have you played Star Wars Otherspace....?
The funny thing is everyone likes to blame Rian, however the problems especislly with the films started with JJ and ended with JJ. People thought JJ was the second coming for the star wars movies

People were expecting this


When they actually got this
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I hated that episode long before I even knew who he was and even before they released Force Awakens, but whatever you say champ.
You hated Ozymandias....its regarded as one of thee most riveting episodes in television in the past decade. What did you actually hate about it?
 
Twisting his words I see?

He says the story and characters are the foundation. World building is a natural aftereffect of that foundation to him.

The 20 minutes on Canto Bight accomplishes more world building than TFA and TROS combined.
 
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It's Jeff

Banned
TLJ was so structurally poor, badly paced, and tonally inconsistent that it would have been ass even if it weren't a Star Wars movie.

As a Star Wars movie, it's double ass because world building and lore is the only thing that could save it... but nah. Hydrocephalus Johnson here doesn't think that's important. You'd think somebody in charge would say something, but there's a chance she's just as arrogant.

Now there's a lot of fans that wouldn't cross the street for a new Star Wars movie. Nice subversion, Johnson. Nobody saw Star Wars being less respected than Buck Rogers, but you did it, kid.
 

Rockondevil

Member
What exactly was thrown out the window? The story was trash in the TFA where literally if that movie didnt happen you wouldnt miss anything, TFA is the definition of filler. Also JJ just didnt make a copy of a movie, he also made probably one of the worst endings and rushed movies in recent memory when it comes to ending a saga as long as star wars. If you think TLJ was a mess then wtf was TROS?

I assume you think Snoke was always supposed to be just some random clone for Palp?
Literally the music that plays in Ep 3 when they discuss Darth Plagueis is the same music that is called Snokes Theme in TFA. And I REALLY doubt John Williams messed that up accidentally or coincidentally.
Snoke was supposed to be the big bad and more fleshed out but Rian just threw him out for absolutely no reason.

Look at the first movies from all the trilogies and the first is always a set up to the rest, which is what JJ did for 7. Sure it was quite similar to 4, but it worked and it set up new characters for the remainder of the trilogy.

8 then took a shit on 7 and it seemed like nothing from it mattered.
As for TROS. It was definitely not a perfect movie, nor probably the best finale we could've asked for. But he had to make do with the screw up that was TLJ and somehow finish the trilogy within the timeframe of a movie.
They probably should've just said fuck it and made an episode 10 to allow more time to fix the mistakes made from Rian.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Reylo i blame entirely on Rian. sure, some people shipped them from the beginning in TFA, but they were just the standard fringe of shippers that exist for any IP. TLJ is the source of all those thirsty GIFs. JJ had to appease that audience. it included so many journalists, thirsty Twitter Blue Checks, and ReeSet Hyper Consumers, and they were always going on about how amazing it all was, how successful the movie was being, and how great this sexy Reylo stuff was. the kiss was put there to satisfy these people. they somehow found a way to blame toxic fans for TROS instead. Rian talked up how his film was "the sexiest Star Wars has ever been". this is something TLJ lovers ignore when they criticize TROS for promoting toxic relationships. TLJ was there first. Rey is literally wet for Kylo. there is the famous hand fetish scene. her hair, for the first time, whereas in TFA it was up in buns, in a more androgynous look. TLJ had her look more feminine. her hair is let down in many scenes that are with Kylo. these are all signals. we have to face the facts, Rian planted the Reylo shit and JJ had to deal w it.

Kylo was introduced by JJ as a competent, dangerous, highly powerful new non-Sith dark force user. he had incredible force powers we had never seen before, like freezing a laser in the air (tbh they never topped the 1st thing he does). Rian neuters him. in TLJ he never really uses the force, even when fighting all those red guys. he doesn't know Luke isn't really there. he just stands there and yells at people. he doesn't seem very tuned in to the force or competent at being a dark side user. i suppose it is to show how "conflicted" and "deep" and "against the past" he is, but those things only rings hollow, when all the actions he does are the same old Sith Lord stuff.

Rian actually has Kylo being more Vaderlike than in TFA. he flies in that three ship formation, failing to kill his target (ANH), he kills the evil Dark Emperor in a stunning betrayal (ROTJ), he confronts the lead hero w a shocking family revelation and offers to rule to galaxy alongside them (ESB), he fights the good Jedi mentor on the other side of a door separating the good guys from all the bad guys (ANH). Kylo is just doing Darth Vader's Greatest Hits all TLJ. his character is not developed, despite all the performative pouting. TLJ has Kylo without his cool force powers that we know he has, combined w his repeated public humiliations, all of it crippling his effectiveness as a potential lead villain for the final film.

JJ had no choice but to bring back the big bad. after all, his play was always using an OT plot device to drive the new films. in TFA it was Starkiller Base, TROS had the Emperor. they function more or less similarly, as excuse to go from point A to B. JJ had no time to hem and haw, he said he was the movie was a race to get it done, he had less time to make this than he had for the first movie, which had to be delayed. the Emperor was always there, one of the action figures in their lineup. in that $4 billion dollar toy chest they had bought for just this reason. so i can sympathize w JJ.
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
one thing about TLJ that always rubbed me the wrong way, the contempt Rian had for those who hoped Luke would save the galaxy. "You think I'm just going to walk out there..." was this not Leia's entire plan for all of TFA? TFA ends with Leia herself sending Rey to go and get Luke. that hope was Leia's the whole time. so in a way, thinking that is a stupid idea is saying that Leia's hope was stupid.

this is what cynicism does to these movies. FWIW JJ i don't think is a cynic, but rather a (very hack) optimist.
 
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Random question but can someone officially clarify if it’s ROS or TROS

Wasn’t it just Rise of Skywalker in all the trailers (no ‘The’)?

Not a big deal or anything, just something I notice a disagreement here and there
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
Random question but can someone officially clarify if it’s ROS or TROS

Wasn’t it just Rise of Skywalker in all the trailers (no ‘The’)?

Not a big deal or anything, just something I notice a disagreement here and there



i believe the logo has always had 'the' at the beginning. use whatever u want imo.
 
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oagboghi2

Member
He made a good Star Wars movie. He's made other decent movies. He's going to continue to keep making movies because he's far more successful at what he does than what you do.

Fact: Your opinions are shit

Is this how far TLJ defenders have lowered themselves?

no one denies Rian is successful. He is a million times more wealthy than me. That doesn’t change the fact he made, hands down the worst Star Wars film ever. He can wear that around his neck, along with his money
 

TheStruggler

Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I assume you think Snoke was always supposed to be just some random clone for Palp?
Literally the music that plays in Ep 3 when they discuss Darth Plagueis is the same music that is called Snokes Theme in TFA. And I REALLY doubt John Williams messed that up accidentally or coincidentally.
Snoke was supposed to be the big bad and more fleshed out but Rian just threw him out for absolutely no reason.

Look at the first movies from all the trilogies and the first is always a set up to the rest, which is what JJ did for 7. Sure it was quite similar to 4, but it worked and it set up new characters for the remainder of the trilogy.

8 then took a shit on 7 and it seemed like nothing from it mattered.
As for TROS. It was definitely not a perfect movie, nor probably the best finale we could've asked for. But he had to make do with the screw up that was TLJ and somehow finish the trilogy within the timeframe of a movie.
They probably should've just said fuck it and made an episode 10 to allow more time to fix the mistakes made from Rian.
Honestly I didn't know wtf Snoke was supposed to be, I dont think anyone knew what he was or was supposed to be, much like how we had no idea who Palpatine was in ep 4/5/6. We didnt know anything about him in those movies. It was 1/2/3 that bridged that gap. It took them 3 more movies to flesh out Palpy and you think they could have done it in one remaining movie with Snoke?

The great twist of TLJ is the apprentice kills his master only 2 movies in. Im glad they killed Snoke, Kylo should have been the big bad in TROS. JJ dropped the ball hard on that one, we should have had an unhinged broken Kylo but we got an old guy thrown down a shaft who clones himself because he couldnt get his own shaft to work.

i mean even if they didnt wana do the whole Kylo route they still could have done shit with Snoke if they can bring back Palpy of all people. If to you TLJ pissed the bed, the TROS sure as hell shit the bed.
 
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oagboghi2

Member
He's saying plot and characters are more interesting starting point for him than worldbuilding. I don't see what's wrong with that approach. It doesn't seem at all radical. But some people are just going to shit over whatever he says.
the plot of TLJ was childish and Rian arguably hurt more characters than he helped in the TLJ.

but even if that is his excuse, it doesn’t dissolve many of the issues people have with the film, especially around world building. Rian is basically admitting his critics were correct. Why should anyone support Rian to work in a established universe again, or be excited for his (supposedly still in production) Star Wars trilogy?
 

Doom85

Member
So, when SW and worldbuilding comes up, I find it funny that the defense for the prequels is usually only three things (four if we count the music but John Williams kicking ass isn't unique to the prequels. And five if we count Maul, but come on, his screentime is less than 2% of the whole trilogy). McGregor as Obi-Wan (this is on point), being original (yeah, execution > originality. An idea can be new but if it sucks then it doesn't really matter), and world-building. The problem with the last one is that I don't give a shit about the worlds and EU-potential if the vast majority of the cast are uninteresting. Sure, it's nice that it gives better works like Clone Wars stuff to utilize, but I give more credit to the latter then the prequels for that.

Plus, the prequels revealed that Lucas really does have a fetish for Tatooine. Seriously, a whole galaxy to explore, and we have to spend a huge chunk of two movies on this shithole again? Spare me the "well, we have to know how Obi-Wan knew Owen and Beru!" No, we don't, honestly so much of the prequels was unnecessary explaining unimportant shit, even Anakin's mom's role was unnecessary since ultimately it wasn't really why Anakin went evil (plus it weakened the impact of the younglings scene in 3. Why should I be shocked, he admitted to killing kids in 2. Hell, he may have killed a baby or two!) Just have Anakin already been recruited by the Jedi and when Obi-Wan takes him as a Padawan he can just ask Anakin where his family lives at one point and all that can be established in a scene rather than wasting a ton of time on it. Sorry, forgive me if I wasn't thrilled when the invasion storyline was suddenly halted so that we could have a "got to have a character win the competition so they can win the prize!" shtick that only happened because Qui-Gon decided to check out only one shop and trusted the word of a shady-acting guy who claimed he was the only one in the entire marketplace to have a specific part.

Not to mention why the fuck Qui-Gon was in the trilogy at all. He's so irrelevant. Just start 1 with Obi-Wan having just become a Jedi Knight and then shit goes down and he has to team up with Anakin and that begins their friendship and teacher/student dynamic. 2 and 3 rarely brought Qui-Gon up, and any emotional impact of his death still affecting Ob-Wan was absent since we had a 10-year timeskip because apparently in 6 when Obi-Wan told Luke that when he met his father he was already a skilled pilot that Lucas was already envisioning him as a little kid who wandered into a Naboo starfighter where the seat and controls SOMEHOW are suited for his height and he wins the war through stupid luck by just flying straight into the mothership. Obi-Wan should have added to Luke at the end, "looking back at it all, a lot of it was kinda dumb if you think about it. Oh yeah, your dad was also supposedly the Chosen One, I'm not going to bring it up though because Lucas hasn't pulled that plot element out of his ass yet, err I mean 'certain point of view', yeah!" But getting back on point, Qui-Gon was such a waste of time. Imagine if Breaking Bad existed as we know it BUT the first two seasons the actual lead is this guy named Alvin while Walt and Jesse are the 2nd and 3rd main characters. Alvin is the main focus, and then dies at the end of Season 2 and his death doesn't really impact future events and Walt and Jesse rarely mention him afterwards. Doesn't sound as good as the Breaking Bad we actually got, does it?

Regardless of what one thinks of TLJ and how Johnson handled it (please actually pay attention to this part, if you respond with, "well, TLJ sucked!", congratulations, you didn't read what I posted), I do think Johnson is right in the general sense that the story should come first and worldbuilding can be focused on afterwords regardless of whether you think he pulled it off. Worldbuilding and thinking of how your story could set up other stuff is fine, but focus on it too much and you fuck up. There's a reason people generally liked Civil War over Age of Ultron, both had set-up for plots/characters that could be used by other films, but the former made sure it never derailed the movie or felt out of place (like setting up Black Panther, his story is connected to what's happening in the film, and even Spider-man fits thematically when he talks about having the power to make a positive difference and knowing it's wrong to not do something, you can see that Tony is thinking that's where Steve is coming from even if he can't agree with him) while the latter had Thor peace out to have a magic vision quest in a random cave that has nothing to do with Ultron (or even Thanos) and Steve and Tony have a debate so on-the-nose of, "guys, I think these two might have a fight a few movies from now! It's not really relevant to what's happening in this movie since even we Steve and Tony have a disagreement later in this movie Thor settles it in like five seconds, but we wanted to pause the story so you all could know the real fight is coming eventually!"
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
I don’t get this “story comes first over world building!” shit when like almost nothing happened in TLJ. Story developments: big bad is gone and it’s just Kylo now, Luke is a dick and is gone now, and rebels are real fucked like they were at the end of the last movie....but they have hope!

Luke Skywalker, Jedi master, is going to murder his nephew in his sleep but instead gets punked and gives up on everything.

Rebels forget to fuel up.

Bombers literally drop bombs.

Tracking vessels through light speed casino subplot that is completely superfluous, introducing “awwckshewally everyone’s bad and weapons manufacturers are the big bad” plot nobody wants and goes predictably nowhere...

It’s just a fucking terrible movie.
 

John Day

Member
I get what he’s saying, but to me, as pure consumer, that sounds dangerous. I mean, for example, SW 7, 8 and 9 were designed to be a cohesive story. You just can’t divorce yourself from the fact that you’re writing/doing something that is part of sonething bigger, by design!

But again, i have zero experience as a writer/director.
 

DKehoe

Member
the plot of TLJ was childish and Rian arguably hurt more characters than he helped in the TLJ.

but even if that is his excuse, it doesn’t dissolve many of the issues people have with the film, especially around world building. Rian is basically admitting his critics were correct. Why should anyone support Rian to work in a established universe again, or be excited for his (supposedly still in production) Star Wars trilogy?

You can not like the results but do you disagree with the idea of having world building be in service to character and plot? Remove it being Rian Johnson that’s saying it, is the principle of it wrong? It seems pretty sound to me so I can’t imagine why that quote particular would put anyone off.
 

Sorcerer

Member
not gonna hate JJ, he gave us many new characters. Rey, Finn, Poe, Maz, Kylo Ren, BB-8, Snoke, etc. he invented all these characters! that's not bad. granted he is a hack but at least these are new characters.

Rian gave us, what, Rose, Holdo, DJ? lol

All of those new characters are just archetypes of characters that came before. JJ does not get a pass there.
 
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