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[raviolico]

dear HouserBros: whatever you do but finally give me some decent Agent news (...if it still exists).

 

[Evolved1]

Patcher is such a cunt.

 

[jtb]

Ehhh they probably won't move, but Pachter does have a point. Releasing the two DLC packs was idiotic from the start - I understand that was probably the only way they could make a deal with MS without pissing everyone else off, but at the end of the day, had Rockstar simply released them together in a $40-50, with a sizable marketing campaign - they could have easily made much more than they did through DLC. As it is, considering the massive budgets and ridiculous amounts of creative freedom they had for RDR and GTA4 (and the episodes), R* doesn't need big hits. They need megahits (5 million+). And their current output simply isn't anywhere near their last generation output, despite rising costs.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Ehhh they probably won't move, but Pachter does have a point. Releasing the two DLC packs was idiotic from the start - I understand that was probably the only way they could make a deal with MS without pissing everyone else off, but at the end of the day, had Rockstar simply released them together in a $40-50, with a sizable marketing campaign - they could have easily made much more than they did through DLC. As it is, considering the massive budgets and ridiculous amounts of creative freedom they had for RDR and GTA4 (and the episodes), R* doesn't need big hits. They need megahits (5 million+). And their current output simply isn't anywhere near their last generation output, despite rising costs.

Red Dead sold over 5 million copies.

 

[jtb]

Red Dead sold over 5 million copies.

I know. But last generation, they had GTAs 2001, 2002, 2004. That's what... 40-50 million copies, when all is said and done? RDR is a megahit. But I'd be very surprised if RDR or GTA4 ever sell as much as the PS2 GTAs. I'm just saying that a decreasing output (GTA4 and RDR) coupled with increasing costs is never a good couple. With the episodes, R* had a chance to have another huge hit, but they screwed that one up big time.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

But I'd be very surprised if RDR or GTA4 ever sell as much as the PS2 GTAs.

I get what you're saying, but hasn't GTA4 outsold all but San Andreas? Rockstar may not best the GTA3 trilogy this generation, but it isn't like they're hit a huge sales dive in addition to a drop in output.

Out of curiosity, do we have any numbers for Episodes from Liberty City?

 

[Ether_Snake]

The episodes were part of a deal with MS so they probably made their money in the end.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Sorry, I should've specified. I meant the disc release.

 

[Denzar]

Don't forget that Rockstar Games is HUGE. They have a lot of development houses.

North for the GTA stuff and now Agent. San Diego for Midnight Club and Red Dead. Vancouver for Bully and Max Payne 3. Toronto who did the Warriors and a series of ports. Leeds for the portable platforms.

Then there are Japan, London, Lincoln and New England for localisation and QA.

The Houser bros. have built a giant and succesfull brand within the world of video games and they churn out games at a steady pace. Not all games are of the same quality as GTA IV (don't start) or RDR, but they have a steady output of quality titles nonetheless.

I usually have nothing against Pachter, but I don't understand his statement.

Rockstar should never abandon their 'when it's done' philosophy.

 

[jtb]

Sorry, I should've specified. I meant the disc release.

Never charted on NPD - for context, in October 2009, the lowest game in the top 10 was around 150K. IIRC, Episodes wasn't even in the top 20, and it probably had an even weaker showing for its PS3 release.

Also, you were right in that GTA4 has outsold GTA3 (17 million vs. 13 million), though it trails Vice City and San Andreas by a couple hundred thousand each - all WW shipment numbers.

 

[FoneBone]

I'd really love to know the particulars about how much LA Noire has cost Rockstar and Team Bondi. It strikes me as one of those games that could go either way - one that's either being made on the cheap so it's taking forever, or one that has just been a gigantic money vortex for all involved that it's amazing Rockstar didn't walk away.

The total costs have to be beyond obscene -- it's been in some stage of development for at least 6.5 years now. (Wasn't it reportedly planned for the PS3 launch window when development began?) And yeah, I'm guessing that the ship date is at least another year (or close to it) off.

Of course, Sony footed much of that bill, and I'm sure the project was more or less restarted at one point, but still...

 

[starchild excalibur]

Regarding their philosophy I can definitely understand how it can be problematic from a business perspective. I also think focusing too much on a "when it's done" policy can either yield great successes for certain developers (R* and Valve come to mind), but it can also be problematic if there's no one to keep things in check and really push a need to buckle down (thinking of DNF). It's worked well for R* so far, but relative to how much money they're spending on all their studios and projects I don't know if the people who actually make a living working within the company feel this same way.

I think LA Noire is still a long way off, a year or more.

Dunno if it's that far off, but I'd also be surprised if it comes out in 2010. RDR got a few solid months of hype and build up, which I think LA Noire would need as well. If they don't start dropping some serious info on it by October then there's a snowball's chance it'll come out before 2011.

As far as the game's concerned, I'm not sure how hyped I am for it. I thought The Getaway was prettier than it was fun and without any footage or substantial info about Noire it's hard to actually remember it's supposed to be coming out soon. I know even less/am even less excited for The Agent despite that being developed by R*.

 

[Redbeard]

Rockstar should never abandon their 'when it's done' philosophy.

Agreed. If RDR had not been in the oven long enough, it would have never gotten the sales and reception it has, and the project would have been a huge failure if they released it after 3 years of development and it was nowhere near ready.

The polish they put into that game allowed what might as well have been a new IP to come out of nowhere and sell over 5 million units. Assuming they only made $25 per title sold (after taking out cuts for licensing fees, marketing, etc), that's $125 million they've made. If it cost $70 million to make, they've made a profit AND established a new, successful IP. That's hard to do in this environment where most new IPs fail miserably.

I'm sure people with more of a business attitude towards the industry hate the fact that R* isn't churning out yearly releases, ala Activision, but Activision has KILLED plenty of their most successful franchise titles within the span of a generation. This means more immediate upfront sales and profits, but it has the ability to really kill your golden goose and if you don't have another golden goose to replace it you are screwed.

With R*, they may take forever to release games, but the GTA series (while not doing as well as it has in the PS2 era), is still successful and thriving whereas games like Guitar Hero, Tony Hawk, and others have essentially fallen off a cliff.

If R* continues to push boundaries with the GTA series, they will continue to see sales since with no fear of the IP suddenly dying completely since no other company has come close to what they've done.

 

[Safe Bet]

IIRC, Episodes wasn't even in the top 20, and it probably had an even weaker showing for its PS3 release.

They released them too soon.

iirc

The OT was still being regularly bumped when the episodes were released.

It's hard to "leave them wanting more" if the show never ends.

 

[charlequin]

I don't think Blizzard answers to Kotick and Bungie just signed a publishing deal, they don't work or answer to him unlike IW who were employees of Activision.

Bobby Kotick is quite literally Mike Morhaime's boss. The only sense in which Blizzard doesn't "answer" to Kotick is inasmuch as Vivendi (the majority shareholder of Activision-Blizzard) tells him to leave them alone, which is true now but certainly isn't guaranteed in any systemic way for the future.

From many years of hearing about T2 development... The only company with worse management seems to be Squeenix.

For all their seeming management problems, SE is still consistently profitable.

Again, this has thus far worked out for Rockstar, because they have a franchise that sells so well. The problem is that it doesn't work for virtually any of the studios who also want to emulate them -- who also want to be rockstars -- but don't sell so well.

Of course, you could make this argument about basically any successful studio, including Nintendo: it is a bad idea to emulate people who are consistently making huge amounts of money on a risky business model if you aren't able to deliver product that will sell as well as the products they release.

As long as GTA was the only series paying off for Rockstar this way, it'd be easy to dismiss it as them riding the success of a single franchise, but with the huge success of Red Dead Redemption I think it's equally possible that they just have the ability to deliver titles with a certain extremely appealing je ne sais quoi that drives them up to 5+ million sales worldwide. If so, I don't see any reason that they should give up on this approach just because other companies do poorly with the same model.

(That's not to say there aren't potentially other problems with their model, but "if everyone else did it they would all fail!" is a terrible reason for a company to change their business model.)

 

[HK-47]

Ugh, that's a big part of whats wrong with GTA4, tries so hard to be like a movie they took all the fun out.

And it wasnt even a good movie!

 

[HK-47]

I don't think Blizzard answers to Kotick and Bungie just signed a publishing deal, they don't work or answer to him unlike IW who were employees of Activision.

Yes Blizzard answers to Kotick.

 

[MMaRsu]

Can we get a censorship on "Pachter" already ? And/or a ban for quoting his shit ?

Every week there's a new thread. The guy is a joke. Industry analyst my ass.

So true.. Every time I see a thread about this guy it's some fucking nonsense.

RDR won't sell well in Yurop durr

 

[truly101]

So R* has had less bombs this gen unlike last gen where Manhunt 1&2, SOE, The Warriors (a damn fine game) either tanked at retail, critically or both. Bully never quite hit the numbers they thought since the game was mired in controversy. Bully was a great game.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

So R* has had less bombs this gen unlike last gen where Manhunt 1&2, SOE, The Warriors (a damn fine game) either tanked at retail, critically or both. Bully never quite hit the numbers they thought since the game was mired in controversy. Bully was a great game.

Actually State of Emergency did okay. It was just awful. Manhunt did pretty well too, IIIRC, but Manhunt 2 tanked.

Poor Warriors, you deserved so much better.

 

[starchild excalibur]

So true.. Every time I see a thread about this guy it's some fucking nonsense.

RDR won't sell well in Yurop durr

I also don't necessarily get why he's referred to so much. I'd imagine he's good at what he does since he makes a living off it, but his predictions don't seem better than some GAFfers' on here even.

So R* has had less bombs this gen unlike last gen where Manhunt 1&2, SOE, The Warriors (a damn fine game) either tanked at retail, critically or both. Bully never quite hit the numbers they thought since the game was mired in controversy. Bully was a great game.

I'd love to see an HD remake or The Warriors, but I know it'll never happened. One of the greatest beat 'em ups of the last generation that really captured the feel of the game. Even the retro beat-em-up you unlock at the end of the game was better than that shitty Warriors XBLA game another studio released for it.

 

[Safe Bet]

I think Pachter is treading a fine line between Studio and Publisher.

If T2 is having problem with R*'s output, hire another studio.

Since when has a "studio" been expected to release multiple blockbuster IPs?

That's the job of a Publisher...

 

[Kittonwy]

Regarding their philosophy I can definitely understand how it can be problematic from a business perspective. I also think focusing too much on a "when it's done" policy can either yield great successes for certain developers (R* and Valve come to mind), but it can also be problematic if there's no one to keep things in check and really push a need to buckle down (thinking of DNF). It's worked well for R* so far, but relative to how much money they're spending on all their studios and projects I don't know if the people who actually make a living working within the company feel this same way.



Dunno if it's that far off, but I'd also be surprised if it comes out in 2010. RDR got a few solid months of hype and build up, which I think LA Noire would need as well. If they don't start dropping some serious info on it by October then there's a snowball's chance it'll come out before 2011.

As far as the game's concerned, I'm not sure how hyped I am for it. I thought The Getaway was prettier than it was fun and without any footage or substantial info about Noire it's hard to actually remember it's supposed to be coming out soon. I know even less/am even less excited for The Agent despite that being developed by R*.

The Getaway showed that a McNamara-led team had no clue what constitutes good controls, it's never simply how sexy the concept is but how well gameplay is implemented and that's a big worry with respect to McNamara and Team Bondi.

The problem isn't doing blockbuster big budget games, the problem is R* is one of Take Two's publishing label, and you can't be ONLY doing blockbuster big budget games and that's all R* is doing right now, it's incredibly risky, great sales is a combination of hype, marketing, market timing and putting together a great product, a lot of times you have to be lucky. With budgets getting closer and closer to 70-100mil, even if you're not lucky ONCE you could be fucked and that's not a good business strategy.

 

[Equus Bellator Apex]

The Warriors is the fucking shit.

That, SOTC, MGS3, and Dark Cloud are tied for my greatest games ever award.

Now that I think about last generation was fucking amazing!

 

[HK-47]

The Warriors is the fucking shit.

I wanna pick up The Warriors. Is there any real difference between the Xbox and PS2 versions?

 

[BobsRevenge]

The problem isn't doing blockbuster big budget games, the problem is R* is one of Take Two's publishing label, and you can't be ONLY doing blockbuster big budget games and that's all R* is doing right now, it's incredibly risky, great sales is a combination of hype, marketing, market timing and putting together a great product, a lot of times you have to be lucky. With budgets getting closer and closer to 70-100mil, even if you're not lucky ONCE you could be fucked and that's not a good business strategy.

If Ubisoft is right, R* is simply ahead of the rest of the industry. :lol

Seriously though, R* is successful. They may be playing their odds, but they know if you're selling something for $60 its got to fucking deliver and have a huge marketing push. I never thought Red Dead Redemption would be able to sell so goddamn well, but it did. So obviously those dudes know more than I do.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

I wanna pick up The Warriors. Is there any real difference between the Xbox and PS2 versions?

Not really. But I will tell you a secret:

Spoiler

The PSP version is the best. Real talk.