It's not really the turn-based mechanics, but rather the design. Things like Spelunky and The Binding of Isaac I'd classify as a sub-genre of roguelikes as they put emphasis on planning stuff out, not on reaction times and such.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
RogueGAF: Die, succeed, die again, repeat
- Thread starter More_Badass
- Start date
It's not really the turn-based mechanics, but rather the design. Things like Spelunky and The Binding of Isaac I'd classify as a sub-genre of roguelikes as they put emphasis on planning stuff out, not on reaction times and such.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Spelunky is a platformer with randomized levels and permadeath. Not a roguelike, not even a little bit.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. I used to play Nethack and Moria before that but Crawl is more my style.
Squirrel Killer
Member
I started to write my own roguelike on my C-64 after just reading a review of an Amiga port or Larn before I even knew it was a genre. No randomly generated dungeons, I was just pulling them from a data file, but I was pretty impressed with my 12 year old (or thereabouts) self. I remember feeling frustrated with the sluggishness of BASIC, so I ran it through a compiler and it ran so fast that the briefest touch of a direction would send you completely across the dungeon. Once I finally got a chance to play Larn, it was a disappointment.
I've probably spent the most time with Moria, with Nethack coming in a close second, then the iLarn port to Palm OS. I've tried ADoM, various Mystery Dungeons, and others, but end up just reinstalling Nethack whenever the mood for a roguelike strikes.
I've probably spent the most time with Moria, with Nethack coming in a close second, then the iLarn port to Palm OS. I've tried ADoM, various Mystery Dungeons, and others, but end up just reinstalling Nethack whenever the mood for a roguelike strikes.
Pinko Marx
Banned
I found the pit to be pretty lame. Small class selection. Not much level variation. Low level of interactions. I like my roguelikes complex with high interactions.
IME FTL is skewed towards reaching end-sector. It took me a number of plays to pass sector 5-6, but once I eventually reached 10 for the first time, I've done so in every playthrough since.border said:
Ie. experience with the game was linearly tied to my sector-progression, not luck (the only exception is beating the final-boss, which does have some luck of the draw dependence).
I do agree that game is deceptively easy at beginning, which tends to lull you into false sense of security and can lead you down upgrade paths that will leave you unprepared for when the real difficulty ramps up.
More_Badass
Member
Thought I had played Teleglitch for an hour, turns out I had played for four. Freaking love this game
1 health point left...the joys of roguelikes
Witness the power of the mighty cangun
I was obsessed with Moria on the Amiga. Angband was fantastic also.
there is a great port of nethack for android (the one by gurr). top tier game.
also check out pixel dungeon.
More_Badass
Member
So what's your personal favorite victory or defeat in a roguelike?
Since I'm addicted to Teleglitch now, here are mine from that game:
Since I'm addicted to Teleglitch now, here are mine from that game:
Parallax Scroll
Banned
Before I had ever beaten Crawl, I lost a 60 hour character who had collected 17 runes of zot (3 runes are needed to access the final area, 15 runes is a "long/complete" game, but you can get one of the runes multiple times). I was hovering over a lava pit in Pandemonium and didn't notice my levitation spell was about to wear off.
outunderthestars
Banned
You guys are way too hung up on overly rigid definitions of the genre...
Moon_frogger
Member
Shiren is really a perfect game in a lot of ways. It was the first rogue like that hooked me. I love that dying becomes a necessary element to progress and that the world evolves even though you're constantly going back to level 1 and losing most of your stuff. It's definitely one of the best roguelikes and the perfect entry point for the genre. I'd also recommend 100 rogues as another gateway game.
The class selection is not really great, what I like most about The Pit is how you can play without using the mouse. That was always a pet peeve of mine with Dredmore, there were so many times I died to trap because you don't automatically stop when you find one. In the pit though your character stops when you find a trap.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
For years the turn-based stuff was the only kind of roguelike out there, and it's still a large portion of what's available. Some people specifically still like that kind, so it's useful to make a distinction. I guess we can call those "traditional" roguelikes.
Since this thread is also about the rogue "lites" or whatever, the main ones I play are Spelunky and FTL. Binding of Isaac is neat, but it runs like shit on my computer and I actually don't like how the combat plays.
Pinko Marx
Banned
I have an issue with people calling games roguelikes simply because they have permadeath and randomlyggenerated levels.
It's like calling any game with stat progression and different equipment loadouts an RPG.
It's like calling any game with stat progression and different equipment loadouts an RPG.
More_Badass
Member
Can you expand on that? I mean, stat progression and loadouts are not exclusive to RPGs. But IMO permadeath and random levels are kind of what roguelikes are known for, that and being brutally hard. Like the post above, I'd say turn based combat is more traditional roguelike but I personally feel that the genre has expanded beyond the boundaries of turn based mechanics
Although that's what I added the distinction between a roguelike and lite. And other devs have used the term "rogue lite". On the Rogue Legacy site, it's called a rogue-lite
Pinko Marx
Banned
Permadeath and randomly generated levels are a roguelike staple, yes, but not the only thing. Just like stat and weapon progression are normally found in RPGs but just because a game has it doesn't make it one.
Like calling Spelunky a roguelike. So if Nintendo made a Mario game with permadeath and random levels is it suddenly a roguelike or is it just a really hard platformer?
For a game to be a roguelike shouldn't it be... like Rogue?
Moon_frogger
Member
I feel like one important element that people often forget is the so called 'emergent' gameplay that allows you to craft your own little story. I suck at rogue and net hack but I love reading about other people's experiences with these games. Same with dwarf fortress. I'm not really hung up on definitions though. I think even atlus had said demon souls was inspired by roguelikes so there you go
A game can take inspiration from a genre without being that genre. Hell, a game can be made as a mod for a game in one genre without ending up in the genre itself. (See: DOTA and Tower Defense mods for Warcraft 3)
I'm sure Call of Duty took inspiration from RPGs and MMOs with their multi-player progression model, but that doesn't make Call of Duty an RPG or an MMO.
More_Badass
Member
Oh, this is my favorite. Every time you play is like your own epic tale. The Souls games, Teleglitch, those moments that you remember or that leave you tense afterwards,
I don't think Day Z is a roguelike, but I love reading the stories of emergent random moments in that game. I know the moments I've had in Teleglitch so far have been great.
THESE ARE MY PEOPLE.
My first was Sword of Fargoal on the iPhone, but years later I realized that Dragon Crystal on the Game Gear was a roguelike and I played a lot of that. I'm also pretty sure that I accidentally downloaded Mines of Moria or something as a kid.
I love graphical roguelikes the best. Stuff that's easy to pick-up and learn. Cardinal Quest, Shiren the Wanderer, Chocobo's Dungeon, 100 Rogues, etc.
I love that Roguelike elements are becoming more and more common now. I'm not sure why they were ever considered lazy game design.
Any Nightmare of Druaga lovers out there!? What a wonderful game.
My first was Sword of Fargoal on the iPhone, but years later I realized that Dragon Crystal on the Game Gear was a roguelike and I played a lot of that. I'm also pretty sure that I accidentally downloaded Mines of Moria or something as a kid.
I love graphical roguelikes the best. Stuff that's easy to pick-up and learn. Cardinal Quest, Shiren the Wanderer, Chocobo's Dungeon, 100 Rogues, etc.
I love that Roguelike elements are becoming more and more common now. I'm not sure why they were ever considered lazy game design.
Any Nightmare of Druaga lovers out there!? What a wonderful game.
Squirrel Killer
Member
I've never ascended or "won" any roguelike despite my love of them, and most of my defeats a pretty non-noteworthy. But one does stick out in my head as a particularly embarrassing death. In Moria, I had a fairly low level character farming white worms (I can't remember how prevalent they are in other RLs, but in Moria, they're your most basic, non-lethal monster, level 1s have no problem with them, but they do reproduce explosively) in a hallway, I accidentally went from the hall a couple of steps into a large room. Because of my farming in the hall, the room already had a decent population of worms and I was far enough in to the room, that their explosive reproduction kept me from being able to get back to the hall and my character eventually fell to the thousand paper cuts of worms.
The thing that made that one stick in my head was that I was on a massive zombie kick, and had just finished reading a book that tried (and failed) to amp up the horror factor by using fast zombies. That Moria death showed me that it was the logistical nightmare of having only a few resources to deal with a horde of zombies creates enough tension, you don't need "scarier" zombies. Ever since then, I've been dreaming of a zombie focused RL, perhaps maybe crossed with a little Dwarf Fortress as a way to increase your resources to deal with the zombpocalypse. Walking Dead RL anyone?
Yeah Adventure mode in Dwarf Fortress is an extremely in-depth open world roguelike with the detailed systems and terrible UI you'd expect. I've never played it because learning Fortress mode was hard enough - but every time I go to check Toady's development posts there seems to be more adventure mode stuff added. That said anyone who hasn't played Dwarf Fortress' sim mode and can deal with the UI and graphics is in for a spectacular time.
Is Minecraft a Roguelike?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I don't consider it a roguelike, but State of Decay on 360 does have randomly placed items/zombies throughout the town (but static map layout) and permanent character death. Lack of resources is also a big issue in that game as well.
More_Badass
Member
Also this dev made Ending. Which I enjoyed, but others may not. It's a minimalist puzzle roguelike inspired by chess. There's a puzzle mode that introduces you to the concept and enemies and an adventure roguelike mode
rohlfinator
Member
Time for my obligatory link to Brogue.
It's a pretty easy roguelike to get into if you (like me) started out with stuff like Spelunky or FTL and want to move to a more traditional roguelike. It uses ASCII graphics, but does a lot of interesting things with color and animation so the environments are very easy to understand. (I think there are some graphical tilesets out there too, but honestly they're not needed.)
Beyond the graphics, it's actually pretty streamlined -- your goal is simply to get to the 26th floor of the dungeon, get the amulet, and climb back out. "Crafting" is done with Scrolls of Enchanting, which give a straightforward permanent boost to any of your items.
One of the coolest aspects of Brogue is its environmental systems. Fire propagates over flammable objects, foliage, and creatures, gases spread naturally and can be trapped in small rooms, and everything interacts in interesting ways. One of my favorite tactics is to throw a poison gas potion into a room, filling the room with (flammable) gas, and then tossing in a fire dart to cause a massive explosion.
It's a lot of fun, and does the "easy to learn but hard to master" thing really well.
It's a pretty easy roguelike to get into if you (like me) started out with stuff like Spelunky or FTL and want to move to a more traditional roguelike. It uses ASCII graphics, but does a lot of interesting things with color and animation so the environments are very easy to understand. (I think there are some graphical tilesets out there too, but honestly they're not needed.)
Beyond the graphics, it's actually pretty streamlined -- your goal is simply to get to the 26th floor of the dungeon, get the amulet, and climb back out. "Crafting" is done with Scrolls of Enchanting, which give a straightforward permanent boost to any of your items.
One of the coolest aspects of Brogue is its environmental systems. Fire propagates over flammable objects, foliage, and creatures, gases spread naturally and can be trapped in small rooms, and everything interacts in interesting ways. One of my favorite tactics is to throw a poison gas potion into a room, filling the room with (flammable) gas, and then tossing in a fire dart to cause a massive explosion.
It's a lot of fun, and does the "easy to learn but hard to master" thing really well.
FairXchange
Member
Wow, great recommendations. Thanks a lot!
More_Badass
Member
Reading this in a Teleglitch review, roguelikes are not for everyone
I will admit, I've played for seven hours and the furthest I've gotten is somewhere in level 2. Probably because I rely too much on ammo rather than melee and find myself with empty guns and little health.
But I've also found that my skills in the game have greatly improved. And that's true progress IMO
I will admit, I've played for seven hours and the furthest I've gotten is somewhere in level 2. Probably because I rely too much on ammo rather than melee and find myself with empty guns and little health.
But I've also found that my skills in the game have greatly improved. And that's true progress IMO
More_Badass
Member
Found this game Paranautical Activity
Desura | Kickstarter | Trailer
Described as "combining the classic FPS action of games like Doom and Quake, with the randomness and difficulty of modern roguelikes like Binding of Isaac and Spelunky"
I know how some here are about what is or isn't a roguelike, but this seems like an interesting game. Haven't played it yet, any GAF impressions?
Desura | Kickstarter | Trailer
Described as "combining the classic FPS action of games like Doom and Quake, with the randomness and difficulty of modern roguelikes like Binding of Isaac and Spelunky"
I know how some here are about what is or isn't a roguelike, but this seems like an interesting game. Haven't played it yet, any GAF impressions?
My favorite rougelike's over the years:
Original Rogue on DEC VAX/VMS - this was a staple at college when I was working in the computer labs, I think I recall beating it at least once
Nethack (many different versions) - Classic roguelike, I've played it a bunch but haven't been able to beat it yet. I always seem to have problems when the monsters start corroding my weapon/armor
Larn - Another ascii roguelike, easier than most but still not a walk in the park, I've been able to beat it several times
Omega - Lots of stuff to do in this one which always has me interested but I die a horrible death very early all of the time, still haven't figured out how to succeed in this one.
AD&D Dungeon Hack - AD&D licensed roguelike using the EOTB engine. One of the first non-ascii based roguelike's that I played a lot
Pokémon Mystery Dungeon - Pokémon and rogue combined, what's not to like? Main storyline in these games is usually pretty easily but there is a lot of optional content that ups the difficulty significantly.
Original Rogue on DEC VAX/VMS - this was a staple at college when I was working in the computer labs, I think I recall beating it at least once
Nethack (many different versions) - Classic roguelike, I've played it a bunch but haven't been able to beat it yet. I always seem to have problems when the monsters start corroding my weapon/armor
Larn - Another ascii roguelike, easier than most but still not a walk in the park, I've been able to beat it several times
Omega - Lots of stuff to do in this one which always has me interested but I die a horrible death very early all of the time, still haven't figured out how to succeed in this one.
AD&D Dungeon Hack - AD&D licensed roguelike using the EOTB engine. One of the first non-ascii based roguelike's that I played a lot
Pokémon Mystery Dungeon - Pokémon and rogue combined, what's not to like? Main storyline in these games is usually pretty easily but there is a lot of optional content that ups the difficulty significantly.
More_Badass
Member
I was thinking about this. Of course the genre owns a lot to Rogue. Hell, that's where it got its namesake.
But IMO that's liking saying every FPS has to be like Doom or Wolfenstein because they were the originators. Expanding beyond those early concepts is what allows a genre to flourish and thrive.
Yes, Rogue laid down an incredible roadmap for future games to follow, but branching off and incorporating elements from other genres into that foundation allows for the games to innovate and stay relevant.
I'll check out the Nethack port and I'll recommend the Pixel Dungeon recommandation : it's free, nicely looking and it's getting regular updates.
(You can easily zoom out if you don't want it to look that blocky)
I don't really like Rogue-Likes, but I love love love Rogue-Lites such as Spelunky, Rogue Legacy, Tower Climb and to some degree FTL. The gameplay of traditional rogue-likes is just not for me.
What I specifically liked about Rogue Legacy was the slow "guaranteed" progression by finding new gear, unlocking new skills etc. even though it meant the game was over at some point for me (since it didn't get any harder and I could complete the whole castle in one run). Still can't beat those carnival rooms though
What I specifically liked about Rogue Legacy was the slow "guaranteed" progression by finding new gear, unlocking new skills etc. even though it meant the game was over at some point for me (since it didn't get any harder and I could complete the whole castle in one run). Still can't beat those carnival rooms though
If there was a genre called doomlike then the games in that genre should be like doom.
More_Badass
Member
Heads up, Super House of Dead Ninjas (ok, maybe a rogue-lite) is 50% off on Steam, to celebrate the release of the True Ninja DLC pack
More_Badass
Member
So is anyone playing Spelunky on Steam? Thoughts, impressions?
More_Badass
Member
Has NEO Scavenger been mentioned?
Just learned about it and sounds incredibly deep for a roguelike
http://www.diygamer.com/2012/07/school-of-hard-knocks-neo-scavenger-takes-survival-seriously/
Just learned about it and sounds incredibly deep for a roguelike
http://www.diygamer.com/2012/07/school-of-hard-knocks-neo-scavenger-takes-survival-seriously/
The two big changes in the works for the game are a vastly expanded combat engine. Combat was previously a case of Use axe on looter and repeat until someone ran out of HP and collapsed. The combat engine is set to expand to allow the use of a much broader range of skills and manoeuvres based on your characters knowledge and stats. Not many RPGs can offer the option to try and grab an attackers leg and pull him to the ground with you if youve already been knocked flat. Combat wont be decided by Hit Points, but rather blood-loss, shock and other, more realistic incapacitating factors.
The AI seems like its getting an overhaul as well. While mutant monsters might be a little more aggressive, human enemies arent going to want to fight to the death over a handful of berries and scraps that youve picked up in a field, and will often just turn and run if hurt. No more last-man-standing Thunderdome action, which is good. I wonder whether speech-related skills will come into this more later on being able to shout down and intimidate attackers is always an interesting option.
Winning a fight doesnt mean youre going to survive, either. Get slashed with a knife and youre going to be left bleeding with a potentially infected wound, so you need to properly treat the injury. Sterilize rags to use as bandages, take antibiotics to fight infection, painkillers to stop yourself from falling into shock and all that serious medical fun. I reminds me a little of survival-roguelike The Unreal World, or perhaps Silmarils quirky survival simulators Robinsons Requiem and Deus. It might not be the first game to offer a medical system like this, but it makes for a much richer survival challenge.
CrudeDiatribe
Member
Me too. Moved onto Moria and then Angband on newer Macs.
I can't stop playing Ending since I first tried it a couple of days ago. It's a really cool distillation of roguelike concepts. I've been playing it online and bought the Android version yesterday.
Also, if anyone is interested in a Shiren-like, I made one for Android, PC, Linux:
Voyage to Farland
More_Badass
Member
Any impressions for Dungeons of Dredmor? Looks pretty good