ten5ive9ine
They've got me haunting a family in Texas.
Ether_Snake said:
Wow. Those are some pretty cool assumptions as to what Moore was trying to achieve.
Basically, Watchmen is just a failed JLA, right?
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Rottenwatch: WATCHMEN
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Wow. Those are some pretty cool assumptions as to what Moore was trying to achieve.
Basically, Watchmen is just a failed JLA, right?
bggrthnjsus
Member
the violence in the comic isn't even close to as ridiculous as in the movie, so they probably could've toned that down, slapped some clothes on dr. manhattan (especially because i don't think the majority of viewers were thinking 'oh man he must be really detached from humanity' when they saw his dick, they were probably thinking 'OH MAN A BLUE DICK LOL')bionic77 said:
edit: oh yeah and the boobs...also probably unnecessary, and made laughable by the soundtrack
adamsappel
Member
(Translator's note: keikaku means plan)birdman said:
ZephyrFate
Banned
You didn't understand the GN at all.Ether_Snake said:
WyndhamPrice
Member
ZephyrFate said:
I don't think he even read it.
Which isn't even an excuse because I have friends who didn't read it and totally got it.
Well all these people complaining about the movie sales, do they understand demographics? You just aren't going to be able to make that much money in a movie if you stick a blue dick and graphic sex scenes in it.bggrthnjsus said:
That means no kids or families can watch it and it isn't like those things were absolutely necessary for the story. And if they were well then don't expect the movie to make a ton of money.
Pedoph-ISLE (listen to Adam Corolla) might be the greatest movie of all time, but you can't expect a movie like it to make a lot of money.
adamsappel
Member
Everyone complaining about dropped storylines (Hollis, Rorshach's psychiatrist, Bernie & Bernie, Black Freighter, etc.) should put a lot of that blame on the IMAX release, which dictated its maximum length. It certainly seems like Snyder filmed everything in the comic save the ending, so we'll likely see everything eventually. There is a planned re-release of a restored version in the summer. Even prior to Watchmen's sub-par performance, I assumed this would be a limited release, but it will probably get scaled way back now. But, there's always the Ultimate Blu-Ray edition.
The movie fails hardest for fans of the comic who resent the changes, but where I think the movie stumbles (and I like the movie) is its slavish adherence to the graphic novel. Despite a comic seeming like a storyboard for a film, they are paced completely differently. Ozy's backstory is interesting, but it's a speech. If included, it would have ground the movie to a halt. I think Bubastis is a little confusing, but the explanation for his existence would be more so, and I think a lot more people would be complaining about if he were left out. The movie would flow a lot better if it were structured more chronologically, but that would be further deviation from the graphic novel and would enrage the hardcore fanbase. I guess for them, the comic really was unfilmable.
The movie fails hardest for fans of the comic who resent the changes, but where I think the movie stumbles (and I like the movie) is its slavish adherence to the graphic novel. Despite a comic seeming like a storyboard for a film, they are paced completely differently. Ozy's backstory is interesting, but it's a speech. If included, it would have ground the movie to a halt. I think Bubastis is a little confusing, but the explanation for his existence would be more so, and I think a lot more people would be complaining about if he were left out. The movie would flow a lot better if it were structured more chronologically, but that would be further deviation from the graphic novel and would enrage the hardcore fanbase. I guess for them, the comic really was unfilmable.
Ether_Snake
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No, why does it matter? It's how the movie felt to me. Like a bunch of different stories that were mashed together.
The characters don't fit together, their individual stories are all actually standalone ones, and it's made even more obvious by the flashbacks or any sequence that tried to add depth to the characters, they really have no relation to one another outside of select scenes that existed just to create some link between them. Roscharch is a detective-vigilante story on its own. Dr. Manhattan is also its own story, etc. They are all brought needlessly together under grander plot that is actually much worst (childish, typically comic-bookesque, Saturday morning-ish) than the standalone stories which worked great on their own, for the little depth they had.
So yeah, it felt like a bunch of standalone stories mashed together by an indecisive author.
The characters don't fit together, their individual stories are all actually standalone ones, and it's made even more obvious by the flashbacks or any sequence that tried to add depth to the characters, they really have no relation to one another outside of select scenes that existed just to create some link between them. Roscharch is a detective-vigilante story on its own. Dr. Manhattan is also its own story, etc. They are all brought needlessly together under grander plot that is actually much worst (childish, typically comic-bookesque, Saturday morning-ish) than the standalone stories which worked great on their own, for the little depth they had.
So yeah, it felt like a bunch of standalone stories mashed together by an indecisive author.
You are incorrect. Every punch in the comic is punctuated with a blood explosion. Arms are broken, faces get smashed in, stabbings, shootings... it isn't PG-13.bggrthnjsus said:
Also, the woman that gets
shot in the leg during the assassination attempt on Ozymandias gets shot in the chest in the book
Gamer @ Heart
Member
How can people even consider this movie even remotly a failure? It made more than a third of its budget in one weekend in one country. Is it somehow bombing worldwide?
ImNotLikeThem
Member
Yeah pretty much. Ok well, not exactly "bombing", but it is not going to make much profit in the short term, but probably a decent amount over long term with DVD sales and such. I'm pretty sure WB and everyone involved were at least hoping for a little better, but no doubt nowhere near say The Dark Knight numbers.Gamer @ Heart said:
ten5ive9ine
They've got me haunting a family in Texas.
Ether_Snake said:
So you haven't read the comic, but you're making calls on the author? Knock the film's direction all you like, but getting haughty about reading the book and then criticising the author is nothing short of retarded.
bggrthnjsus
Member
it's not as graphic or central though. there is blood in the comic, but it isn't the focus of the shot, like it is in the movie. take the rorschach flashback...Zabka said:
in the comic the dogs are fighting over a bone, and you are to assume it is a human bone, but you can't really make that guess for sure, because all you see is a bone. in the movie, there's a fucking little girl's bone with a shoe and part of a foot still attached. ...not to mention changing what rorschach did to the kidnapper from something that fit with rorschach's attitudes to meaningless graphic violence.
or the dr. manhattan backstory:
in the scene where manhattan kills somebody in moloch's...in the comic, you see him point at a guy and there's like a puff around his face, and that's it. in the movie they explode, and there are bloody body parts hanging from the ceiling. totally unnecessary. the vietnam scenes in the comic have viet cong running away from manhattan in terror, but not exploding in a shower of guts. same goes for rorschach's death
the fight with the top knots
in the comic, you see silk specter break the guy's arm, but it's not that obvious, and it's certainly not the focus of the shot. in the movie, you get a close up of a compound fracture occurring. and you certainly don't see laurie stab a guy in the neck then use his body as a human shield. again, totally unnecessary.
the only one i think is comparable is the veidt assassination attempt
the only one i think is comparable is the veidt assassination attempt
the comic's violence is nowhere near that of the movie's, possibly on all levels, but on the very least in terms of how graphic it is and how obvious it is. not to mention that it doesn't really add anything to the overall plot or message of the movie. in fact i would say it detracts, because it makes everybody seem slightly superhuman, when they are in fact anything but.
bggrthnjsus said:
It occurs to me that they have to show some gore for Doc Manhattan to distinguish between him teleporting people and just destroying them.
Re: the book:
As I read Rorschach's 'birth' (man, so well told), he does actually get a bit pyscho - that's the whole point with the dogs. So it's not TOTALLY out of character. In the movie, it's no longer obvious that he hacked up the dog.
And Rorschach's death does have blood, and I thought it was a nice touch that it was an inkblot in the movie.
And Rorschach's death does have blood, and I thought it was a nice touch that it was an inkblot in the movie.
Not trying to condone it, but it has SOME precedent and purpose.
Ether_Snake
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Seems like it was added to make it feel less comic bookish, to make people feel like it was more mature.
But it's difficult to see it as such when
And oh god the music.
But it's difficult to see it as such when
Night Hawk was limp when Silk Spectre tried to have him fucker her, and the only way to get his hardon back was to wear his gimp suit and go and save people from a flaming building!
And oh god the music.Spirit of Jazz
Banned
mrkgoo said:
I don't know if I agree with that he cracked and cleaved the dogs skulls but there's nothing to say he didn't do it in a clam, controlled fashion. He just took the closest, most efficient tool to him as the dogs were a threat and did the job. In the film he pretty much got off as he hurried the blade into a dead mans head repeatedly. [/quote]
What? Have you read the last few chapters? You're just being nitpicky.bggrthnjsus said:
Explain how the arm snapping ("Keep it snappy" Get it? Funny stuff) isn't the focus of this panel.
The action was more stylized, no doubt about that, but to act like the movie strayed into torture porn territory is silly.
I think you're overthinking a little there. Saying he "pretty much got off" when you can't see his face is stretching it. Compare that to the book and, well, you tell me...
http://i39.tinypic.com/2v3hsev.jpg
[/QUOTE]Spirit of Jazz said:
Well, I meant psycho as in killing the thing with a cleaver by splitting its head, not so much as being frantic. But yes, I agree totally different from offing the dude. I was just saying it's not like he hadn't killed anything with the cleaver. There was SOME precedent. ANd I don't think he got off - he was breathing hard, but I read that as anxiousness like I did when I first killed someone. Wait, I've said too much.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
I still don't understand why people had a problem with the blue penis. I never looked at it after the first time it was shown; are you all that insecure about genitalia?
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
It really is not noticeable.Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
So I saw watchmen and I really thought it was great. I do know that alot from the comic had to be dropped, no doubt. But I'm really interested so I want to look into the comic, see if I can buy it second hand and such. My question is, what is there all? I saw there was a graphic novel, I saw there were comics (how many issues?) Or are they the same?
Basically I'm asking how many comics/novels there are and which ones I definitely need/want.
Basically I'm asking how many comics/novels there are and which ones I definitely need/want.
Zabka said:What? Have you read the last few chapters? You're just being nitpicky.
Explain how the arm snapping ("Keep it snappy" Get it? Funny stuff) isn't the focus of this panel.
The action was more stylized, no doubt about that, but to act like the movie strayed into torture porn territory is silly.
I think you're overthinking a little there. Saying he "pretty much got off" when you can't see his face is stretching it. Compare that to the book and, well, you tell me...
http://i39.tinypic.com/2v3hsev.jpg
remember that in the comic, the "keep it snappy" line is uttered by someone speaking to Dr Manhattan in the studio. the panels in the alley have tv studio dialogue over them which makes it clever and distracts a little from the violence in the alley.
personally, I don't think there was any NEED for the graphic violence in the movie (aside from the ending). breaking bones could have been handled by sounds without showing the blood and all that and the scene would have still gotten the point across.
not to say that the violence bothered me, but I don't think it added much to the scene.
edit: @MNC. stop into any book store and you should be able to find the complete Watchmen graphic novel (12 issues put together in one book) for around 20 bucks. it's softcover trade paperback. easy as pie.
MisterHero
Super Member
there's 12, and the novel is basically the collection of them.MNC said:
I think I'll get the Absolute Edition, but it's expensive. :lol
bggrthnjsus
Member
you're right that the end is pretty gory and violent, but the last few chapters are an even BETTER point as to why the violence in the movie was unnecessary...they changed the ending, made it a lot LESS gory, and yet they still added all this extra gore in the places that do have violence.Zabka said:What? Have you read the last few chapters? You're just being nitpicky.
Explain how the arm snapping ("Keep it snappy" Get it? Funny stuff) isn't the focus of this panel.
The action was more stylized, no doubt about that, but to act like the movie strayed into torture porn territory is silly.http://i39.tinypic.com/2v3hsev.jpg
i did forget about the blood in rorschach's death though, the only think i remembered was the picture of him being vaporized
i would say that joke (while about the arm), isn't meant to draw attention to the arm, it's more of a juxtaposition of jon being forced into exile with dan and laurie being forced to be heroes again...the interviewer says that line, and there are other lines that merge the interview situation with the fight.
and i never said it was torture porn, my point was that they didn't need it in the movie to replicate the book (and that they could've had a pg-13 rating without any fundamental changes).
edit: also i think they add blood in comics to help the sense of motion, not necessarily because they want it to be gory
ZephyrFate
Banned
I like how you conclude that from Snyder's portrayal of this "mish-mash" of stories is somehow reflective of Alan Moore. It's not. The GN fits together perfectly. Each story is inter-connected with the next, with characters like Rorshach and Dr. Manhattan getting more screentime entirely due to their importance to the overall plot. The GN also has supplementary text between each major scene which ties everything together entirely.Ether_Snake said:
You need to read the GN and stop posting the same stuff over and over. It's not helping your argument (which is one based off the movie, that somehow criticizes the novel).
Edit: The idea of
Nite Owl getting excited because of the flaming building rescue is entirely due to the thrill of being a vigilante again. Before that they were depressed and hunted down by outside society. Being able to do what they do best brought that spark back. And thus... an awkward but effectual sexual encounter.
That's not distracting from the violence at all. The violence is what makes the line work. In fact, it focuses you on what Laurie does in the panel.LCfiner said:
Just look at the cover of the first issue and the TPB. What do you see? Blood.
The end of every issue shows the Doomsday clock with blood slowly dripping down towards it.
Also,
What's the symbol of Watchmen that's plastered all over the place in the book? A smiley face with a drop of blood on it. The blood's important.
bggrthnjsus
Member
a blood spattered smiley face isn't what made the watchmen an important book. and blood splatters are entirely different from graphic violence in motion. especially in a rating context, which is what this argument was originally about.Zabka said:
Ether_Snake
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I noticed the blue dick once. You'd tell me it was only shown once and I'd believe you.
Really some people are just insecure. Maybe the same people who decided to hit the gym after seeing 300, but I guess getting a giant blue dick is more difficult than a six pack.
I don't know, maybe some nerds wanted to identify with Dr. Manhattan (I am special, and I don't like society), but the big dick broke this feeling of identification.
Really some people are just insecure. Maybe the same people who decided to hit the gym after seeing 300, but I guess getting a giant blue dick is more difficult than a six pack.
I don't know, maybe some nerds wanted to identify with Dr. Manhattan (I am special, and I don't like society), but the big dick broke this feeling of identification.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I do not understand this line of thought. How does Manhattan's penis somehow make us not identify with him?Ether_Snake said:
Seriously. I'm just boggled by every argument you throw against the movie (and somehow connect it to the novel? Seriously? :lol :lol :lol ).
ZephyrFate said:
Well, Doc Manhattan's is much more well endowed than me. But he has blue balls.
Seriously, though, I think it's just because people aren't used to seeing much full frontal male nudity in 'mainstream' movies (particularly 'superhero/comic book' movies). But whatever. I found the portrayal of Doc made me think a lot about things, one being male nudity.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Haven't read the GN yet, although I nearly picked it up today at Target. Can anyone who has read it tell me if they explain where Rorschach gets his mask from? Any info on what it is at all? Or in the GN does it not change in the same way that it does in the movie.
bggrthnjsus
Member
he talks about it in the comic...but it's nothing crazy or anythingKung Fu Jedi said:
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Kung Fu Jedi said:
yes, its explained. and yes, it's supposed to move the same way.. the back story on the mask isnt that deep really.
bggrthnjsus
Member
pg-13 -> better sales -> more money -> more exploration into movies about more offbeat comicsZabka said:
as it stands right now, it will probably lose money (although the rating is only half the problem...the main problem being that it just isn't that well liked), and nobody will ever make a comic book movie this ambitious and risky again. this is why we can't have nice things.
Kung Fu Jedi said:
Yes it's nothing crazy, but they do explain it.
Spoiler on Rorschach's mask:
During the age of Doc Manhattan, a lot of technology was advanced. The fabric is kind of a liquid layer between two latex-type sheets. It responds to heat and touch. Rorschach got it from a dress that someone thought was ugly, but he liked because it was 'black and white' never grey. He used a technique involving heated implements to make his 'face'.
Speculator
BioWare Austin
bggrthnjsus said:
Genocide (or mass muder) and the murder of a pregnant woman....pg-13 rating content indeed.
Other movie's have done less and garnered an R rating (Brick and Cowboy Bebop the movie)
bggrthnjsus
Member
as for the mass murder, i think the movie's big mass murder was done in a very pg-13 manner. the pregnant woman is probably way harder to work around...it's probably the only really good example of violence that would have to stay in. (although i think you might be able to get a pg13 rating even with a pregnant woman getting shot)Speculator said:
Speculator
BioWare Austin
People getting vaporized wasn't really a teen friendly visual in the film. I'm inclined to say that the pregnant woman was offed in a pg-13 manner (off-camera muder if i remember), but the idea of murdering a pregnant women...among the other contents in the film will not be idly ignored by the MPAA.bggrthnjsus said:
Its not about the rating which might've saved the box office, its the ideas that preserve these off-beat comics that pushes the envelope that makes it off-beat. Hence why off-beat comics are off-beat...because of their contents that marginalize the readership compared to something like Spiderman/Batman/X-men/Superman/Iron Man
bggrthnjsus
Member
i don't think you see her directly get shot, but you see her fall. i think the vaporization is pretty pg-13 friendly though...i mean a dude gets a pencil jammed through his face in batman begins and that was pg13...taken is pg13, and he tortures a dude and shoots a few others in the face (although i haven't seen the us version)...not to mention a lot of horror movies are pg-13. although the mpaa has a pretty stupid system.Speculator said:
true, but i don't think it is the violence and gore that makes those off-beat comics popular, nor do i think they necessarily marginalize readership...i don't even feel like the watchmen pushes the envelope all that much, rather it is interesting because it is political, it is thematically interesting, and it does a good job of conveying this collective sense of the unease of the cold war. i think the watchmen could have been made into something that was satisfying for all parties (even with a pg-13 rating)...and by extension of that, would've kept the door open for future projects of similar ambitions. edit: although i think it could alienate the really anal detail oriented purists, but they're not making up a substantial piece of box office sales
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