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Rottenwatch: WATCHMEN
- Thread starter DevelopmentArrested
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mrkgoo said:
I would advise you to read the book, you'll get a whole lot of more respect for the idea behind Watchmen.
Also Squid ending... its so fucking awesome. The moment i was reading it i was like WTF, but it kinda made sense :lol. Also in the book there is a also a key scene with Mr. Manhatten there. Yet in the movie it comes off as: ''hey look this happend! now where going back!''
TheOddOne said:
Unfortunately, people can't get over "big blue penis" to realize that Crudup's Manhattan was perhaps the best developed character in the whole film. Rorschach's backstory was severely truncated.
The others - besides Jeffrey Dean Morgan who did the best of the limited screen time he got - were forgettable.
This was posted elsewhere, but I thought Id repost it here. Its a film critic from the UK, and I find myself agreeing wholly with his views on Watchmen. He really hits the nail on the head for how I felt (with the difference being that he read the GN and I havent).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8l0q4rgcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu8l0q4rgcg
Is there any explanation for Rorschach's truncated speech? Is it like a matter of 'efficiency', or just getting to the point without superfluousness (like his character), by eliminating articles et al., or just nouns and verbs kind of thing (like black and white)? A counterpoint to Veidt's finesse?
I just feel like there's a point to the way he speaks.
I just feel like there's a point to the way he speaks.
Prime crotch
Banned
I think they've done the same with every character, when they're not quoting the comic directly. The movie's too long already as it is with this more direct and less subtle speech.mrkgoo said:
Primethius
Banned
Just watched the movie and it was awesome. I thought
Maybe my memory of the GN is fuzzy but it certainly seemed like it.
Rorschach's death was done better in the movie then the GN.
bggrthnjsus
Member
so after thinking about what i saw yesterday, i have to say i neither condone nor condemn this movie...except the soundtrack, which is bad no matter how you look at it.
Rorschach and Ozy are the most likable character in watchmen while Dr. Manhattan is the least.
Rorschach doesn't have the resources that the others have, but he has resolve and personal code to keep fighting the good fight. Is flaw is that he doesn't see the big picture.
Ozy is similar to Rors the difference is in how he views things and doesn't let anything stop him from do what he feels is right. Rors would never do what he did.
Dr Manhattan is the character I hate the most. If he wasn't such a self-centered, antsy, bitch none of this would of happened because he has the power to make a difference and doesn't. He is also a willing pawn for everyone.
Rorschach doesn't have the resources that the others have, but he has resolve and personal code to keep fighting the good fight. Is flaw is that he doesn't see the big picture.
Ozy is similar to Rors the difference is in how he views things and doesn't let anything stop him from do what he feels is right. Rors would never do what he did.
Dr Manhattan is the character I hate the most. If he wasn't such a self-centered, antsy, bitch none of this would of happened because he has the power to make a difference and doesn't. He is also a willing pawn for everyone.
I liked how they did Rors death. He was so conflicted in the end because he was thinking that maybe Ozy did the right thing, but the code he lives was smashed by Ozy.
Ad Infinitum
Member
Quick question; is the
monologue in the film? Definitely my favourite part of the comic, would be a shame if they didn't include it/shortened it.
thermodynamic miracle
bggrthnjsus
Member
yea that's true, i thought the opening, the opening credits, the funeral, and the manhattan flashback were good...but the music for the dinner, sex scene, antarctic scene was so inappropriate it brought the whole thing downBlader5489 said:
Saw it on Saturday with my brother as my parting shot in a string of birthday gifts to him. I guess you could say it was a gift for me as well. I had issues with the movie, namely the music, the slow beginning, some of the seemingly inappropriate super-power-like fight scenes, and the half-assed ending, but in general, I definitely enjoyed it.
I walked in completely blind, and walked out satisfied, and more importantly, very intrigued. It was VERY much a character-driven affair, versus the story/event-driven stuff you'd come to expect from just about all other comic/book-to-movie adaptations. And in that sense, I felt that it mostly worked. I caught a hint of brilliance here and there, and it inspired me to use a $50 B&N giftcard that I had lying around to order the hardbound Absolute Edition of the Watchmen graphic novel, conveniently discounted from ~$70 to around $50, at the time the order was placed.
I definitely was left wanting more; but for having come in expecting an epic action-packed movie, and left, instead, contemplating a grim, darkly philosophical, and altogether cerebral affair; I can't really say that I was at all disappointed.
I've already received the graphic novel, and thumbed through some of it. I definitely look forward to hunkering down with it one of these weekends and devouring all 464 or so pages.
Thumbs up.
I walked in completely blind, and walked out satisfied, and more importantly, very intrigued. It was VERY much a character-driven affair, versus the story/event-driven stuff you'd come to expect from just about all other comic/book-to-movie adaptations. And in that sense, I felt that it mostly worked. I caught a hint of brilliance here and there, and it inspired me to use a $50 B&N giftcard that I had lying around to order the hardbound Absolute Edition of the Watchmen graphic novel, conveniently discounted from ~$70 to around $50, at the time the order was placed.
I definitely was left wanting more; but for having come in expecting an epic action-packed movie, and left, instead, contemplating a grim, darkly philosophical, and altogether cerebral affair; I can't really say that I was at all disappointed.
I've already received the graphic novel, and thumbed through some of it. I definitely look forward to hunkering down with it one of these weekends and devouring all 464 or so pages.
Thumbs up.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Ad Infinitum said:
They tweak it a bit, but it still works. They changed the scene on Mars quite a bit though.
===
I am more convinced that people who admire film for craft are going to hate this movie, and those who admire film for being thought-provoking or novel are going to love it. Almost all the criticisms I have heard (save for the penis ones) are reasonable, but the question is whether you are watching for the virtuoso cinematography and acting (virtually none) or for having the film fuck with your expectations and make you think.
Neither is a wrong viewpoint, or better than the other, it's just an interesting sort and makes some sense of a film getting 4-star reviews from some critics and panned by others.
polyh3dron
Banned
Definitely. Butkoshunter said:
the revelation that the Comedian is Laurie's dad
I've never read the books, but I enjoyed movie for the latter.Ignatz Mouse said:
And for what's worth, the apparent shallowness of most characters seemed fitting with their delusional/obsessive choice of lifestyles. Reminiscent of all the on screen Batmans in that respect too...
Funny thing is, Comedian came off the most human of the bunch even in his brutality.
rollingstart
Banned
Solo said:
yeah, he's spot on there.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Really? I got the feeling in the theatre that more people were shocked by this than the actual end of the film.polyh3dron said:
Justin Bailey
------ ------
Perfect.Solo said:
Never heard about the graphic novel before watching the first Watchmen trailer... I really enjoyed it. Might track the book down now when ever I have some time.
Some quick little question.
So what exactly when one with the previous group of heroes and why did the later group end up parting ways? I kinda missed the beginning portion (got there late) and I really didn't catch why the new group broke up
.
Some quick little question.
So what exactly when one with the previous group of heroes and why did the later group end up parting ways? I kinda missed the beginning portion (got there late) and I really didn't catch why the new group broke up
did it all have to deal with that law that was passed and the general disillusionment Vietnam had on everyone?
bggrthnjsus
Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
i see it similarly to this too, but my mind kept flipping back and forth throughout, so at the end it averaged out to total ambivalence. the part of me watching for a well packaged film was utterly disgusted, but the part of me just wanting to see the comic on a screen was pleasantly surprised.
i partly agree with the reviewers that say that snyder's slave-like dedication to the source material (without regard to his actors or his conflicts and themes) sucked the soul out of the movie; the characters aren't quite as well developed, and in the messages of the comic are in some ways distorted or lost.
the ending gets by with its message; dan, laurie, and jon's grudging acceptance of the benefit, with rorschach's unbending sense of justice getting him killed. in the comic however, i got the sense that rorschach understands the benefit, and he actually almost wants manhattan to vaporize him to prevent him from having to deal with reconciling his concept of justice with what has happened. the old papers written by rorschach as a kid talk about his love of truman and his approval of the use of the a-bomb (he specifically says because it saved millions of lives); at some level (and at least as a child) he understands the benefit of what adrian did. his killing of the kidnapper also touched on a similar concept as rorschach offers the killer a chance to make a massive sacrifice to save his life (although there's no way of knowing if he would've just killed him if he got out of the fire). leaving that out was pretty stupid as somebody else mentioned, since the act would've improved his backstory with at least an indirect clue to his conflict at the end. instead we get a needlessly violent slaughter.
the movie's scene with rorschach and jon is a little different in its motivations, and i felt like rorschach told jon to get it over with because he knew they were going to stop him anyway. he seems upset only by his feeling of violated justice, and not because he feels any cognitive dissonance over the situation. the changed ending doesn't particularly work with the comic rorschach's conflict - he is ok with an a-bomb killing thousands to save american lives, but not ok with sacrificing innocent american lives to save the world's lives. however, i definitely like the movie's altered ending more than the giant tentacled psychic vagina in new york city. and of course, like other people have said, blowing up nyc just doesn't have the same effect in a post 9/11 world. however, i think haley did such a good job as rorschach in that scene, it was more moving than the comic's version, even without the proper motivation.
the missing conversation between jon and adrian also bugs me. what i gathered from that scene was that adrian still wasn't sure that it would work, that what he did was justified, and it shows that he, despite his skills and intelligence, still suffers from the same insecurities as everybody else. and it leaves the reader wondering if people really will just wipe each other out again. maybe that was just deemed to bleak to bring in viewers. the movie's adrian seems too much like a supervillian in the traditional sense, in a world where there are no traditional super-people.
the movie's scene with rorschach and jon is a little different in its motivations, and i felt like rorschach told jon to get it over with because he knew they were going to stop him anyway. he seems upset only by his feeling of violated justice, and not because he feels any cognitive dissonance over the situation. the changed ending doesn't particularly work with the comic rorschach's conflict - he is ok with an a-bomb killing thousands to save american lives, but not ok with sacrificing innocent american lives to save the world's lives. however, i definitely like the movie's altered ending more than the giant tentacled psychic vagina in new york city. and of course, like other people have said, blowing up nyc just doesn't have the same effect in a post 9/11 world. however, i think haley did such a good job as rorschach in that scene, it was more moving than the comic's version, even without the proper motivation.
the missing conversation between jon and adrian also bugs me. what i gathered from that scene was that adrian still wasn't sure that it would work, that what he did was justified, and it shows that he, despite his skills and intelligence, still suffers from the same insecurities as everybody else. and it leaves the reader wondering if people really will just wipe each other out again. maybe that was just deemed to bleak to bring in viewers. the movie's adrian seems too much like a supervillian in the traditional sense, in a world where there are no traditional super-people.
zack snyder definitely loves the watchmen...but whether or not he understood it is a totally different story. i think he tried his best, but i don't think the comic is something that can be filmed as is, it would have to be rearranged and chopped up far more than snyder did, because as just a movie, it's lurching, it makes serious scenes look comical, and it is just sort of the pictures of the watchmen set to music, with only a sprinkling of the conflict, the themes, the satire that make the comic enjoyable.
i think i would've kind of liked to see it filmed in chronological order, as some epic tragedy (although i think parts of it might be spaced too far apart sometimes for that to be reasonable)
bggrthnjsus
Member
this is pretty much exactly how i felt about the job snyder didSolo said:
edit: i mean think about it, 300 is a comic you can read in like a half hour and think hey that was cool and be done with it. and there is a very simple, in your face kind of frank miller message to work with. it probably took me about 5-8 hours to read the watchmen, and i thought about it for awhile afterward. i think the subject material just went directly over his head, and like the guy reviewing it said, just because you enjoy something doesn't mean you are the best suited to working with it.
Hellsing321
Member
Varna said:
Yes the Keane act outlawed masked vigilantes and the only ones who could keep crime fighting were Dr. Manhattan and The Comedian because they worked for the government.
Yeah, this guy really echoes my feelings. I also agree that V for Vendetta is a better movie in comparison to Watchmen. Purely on a film level obviously, not regarding the source material.Solo said:
His final statement was exactly my feeling. Zack Snyder had nothing whatsoever to say about the material other than "its really cool!"
jett said:
Uh...if
Ozy dies
Dead said:
I disagree with that. As an adaptation, V is ridiculously off-the-mark. But even as a standalone film, I don't think it's that great. Plenty of bad acting, clunky writing, and cheesiness in that movie.
And I'd argue that Jackie Earle Haley, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, and Billy Crudup >>> Hugo Weaving and Natalie Portman.
Gary Whitta
Member
I like how Kermode criticizes the costumes for looking "a little bit 80s" - for a movie that's set in, uh, 1985.
bggrthnjsus
Member
surface level things i did like a lot, despite the overall experience being average at best:
stuff i didn't like, besides the overall picture
billy crudup's dr. manhattan...his voice overs and facial expressions were just what i would've expected from dr. manhattan. like he can vaguely remember that he should care about things, but isn't sure why anymore, and can't bring himself to do it. some of the animation on his movements was a little awkward i felt (no i'm not talking about his dong), but i mean, i wouldn't know how a reconstituted man would move after turning into some kind of quantum particle god.
jackie earle haley's rorschach...i thought he channeled him really well, and like i said in my earlier post, i thought his performance in the very end was actually more moving than the comic, despite having slightly different motivations. i also thought the set-up with moloch was really well done, especially when rorschach jumps from the window and keeps fighting cops on the street. gave me a good sense of the desperation he was fighting with. the whole prison sequence was pretty well done too i thought...haley was better with the mask off i felt. also, i'm glad they just had him get his stuff from the psychiatrist rather than going home to get it and having a run-in with the landlady like in the comic. on the one hand, that changes the story with the psychiatrist a bit, but i didn't feel it really detracted, and on the other hand having them go home and see his landlady would've made no sense without previous mention of her, and just would've taken too long.
the comedian was pretty good for the little screentime he had, and i thought dan was surprisingly interesting in the movie, more than i felt in the book.
opening fight scene and opening credits were also probably the best 15 consecutive minutes in the movie.
jackie earle haley's rorschach...i thought he channeled him really well, and like i said in my earlier post, i thought his performance in the very end was actually more moving than the comic, despite having slightly different motivations. i also thought the set-up with moloch was really well done, especially when rorschach jumps from the window and keeps fighting cops on the street. gave me a good sense of the desperation he was fighting with. the whole prison sequence was pretty well done too i thought...haley was better with the mask off i felt. also, i'm glad they just had him get his stuff from the psychiatrist rather than going home to get it and having a run-in with the landlady like in the comic. on the one hand, that changes the story with the psychiatrist a bit, but i didn't feel it really detracted, and on the other hand having them go home and see his landlady would've made no sense without previous mention of her, and just would've taken too long.
the comedian was pretty good for the little screentime he had, and i thought dan was surprisingly interesting in the movie, more than i felt in the book.
opening fight scene and opening credits were also probably the best 15 consecutive minutes in the movie.
stuff i didn't like, besides the overall picture
laurie - good god malin akerman was fucking terrible.
bubastis - i can imagine some fat fanboy in some q&a session asking 'will bubastis be in the movie?' in between sips of his root beer, and snyder thinking 'oh man, a BIG CAT. YEAH THAT'LL BE AWESOME'. snyder can come up with a new ending, but he can't come up with a new way to lure manhattan into the intrinsic field generator?
soundtrack - wildly inappropriate. (most of the time)
slow-mo - i guess this is how snyder made 300 last 2 hours instead of 20 minutes, so i should've seen this coming.
bubastis - i can imagine some fat fanboy in some q&a session asking 'will bubastis be in the movie?' in between sips of his root beer, and snyder thinking 'oh man, a BIG CAT. YEAH THAT'LL BE AWESOME'. snyder can come up with a new ending, but he can't come up with a new way to lure manhattan into the intrinsic field generator?
soundtrack - wildly inappropriate. (most of the time)
slow-mo - i guess this is how snyder made 300 last 2 hours instead of 20 minutes, so i should've seen this coming.
Anyone thinking a better film was out there from anyone should really take a look at the early scripts. The only compromises made were for Snyder's version were for time.
I can't take anything you say seriously when you view the movie through the "Visionary Director of 300" lens. You have to realize that your preconceptions of Snyder have affected your opinion, especially when you're complaining about Bubastis' existence in the movie.
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