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[DJ88]

Interesting that you bring up VR workflow immediately after acknowledging everyone abandoning 3D implementation. Making a 3D mode for games is probably the best pre-VR way to help establish best practices for VR projects, considering it also involves 3D dimensionality and two seperately rendered images. Games with 3D modes could also be fairly easily retrofitted with VR functionality once the peripherals arrive, to help strengthen the portfolio of compatible software out the gate. If everyone's so damned interested in VR development, why does no one seem at all interested in something that helps cut teeth on pipeline skills they'll need for VR?

3D is at the bottom of the list of what makes VR a challenge to develop for. All you have to do to make a 3D mode in a game with 3D space is add a second camera. Games with 3D modes would not be fairly easily retrofitted for VR and there are no VR practices learned from simply making a 3D mode in a traditional game.

 

[HariKari]

This technology is no where near as pervasive as those products.

Not yet, no. But there was a time when cell phones were for a very small niche, and homes were lucky to have one TV, much less a color one. VR is not a tweak to an existing medium, like motion control (Kinect) or 3DTV. It is an entirely new approach to media, and it has an incredible amount of potential uses. It will be successful. The question is really only at what level of refinement will they hit the sweet spot, and what will the apps or games for it look like? It may not be a year from now, or even five, but the people backing this are adamant that it's going to happen. People that have demoed the Vive say that it's not a reach at all to say that VR is the next big thing.

 

[Nosgotham]

This is why I think Morpheus has the best chance at succeeding with the mainstream. If Sony promotes and properly supports it as a platform, while the PS4 won't be able to run games with PS4 graphics in VR mode, Sony will hopefully secure enough titles built specifically for Morpheus to make it matter, thus getting VR in the door.

just like they did with Move, right? Sony has a terrible track record for supporting stuff long term if its not meeting expectations

 

[Shig]

3D is at the bottom of the list of what makes VR a challenge to develop for. All you have to do to make a 3D mode in a game with 3D space is add a second camera. Games with 3D modes would not be fairly easily retrofitted for VR and there are no VR practices learned from simply making a 3D mode in a traditional game.

Doubling the amount of information you have to render and still maintaining acceptable performance is a pretty, pretty, preeeeetty important skill to have for VR.

 

[Seanspeed]

It might shatter some worldviews in here.. buy there are people who don't want to wear a disconnecting piece of plastic all over their face at home and they have tried it.

It's like talking to Jehovas Witnesses sometimes. You have to experience the lord! ^^

Yes, of course there are. People who have actually tried VR(though I cant attest to the quality of what their experience was, which might make a difference) do not unanimously love VR and embrace it like an adopted child right away. But I would say that the vast majority who have actually experienced it themselves at the very least *get it*. They finally grasp what the technology actually does(something many many naysayers have not) and usually understand what the potential is. And more often than not, I'd say people who have tried it come away very impressed.

Thanks, it just gets to a point where I cant stand to keep reading ill-informed or just plain wrong opinions that I have to come out with a wall of text to get my frustrations out

I find that the most frustrating opinions on a variety of subjects such as games/tv/movie reviews, trends in society, best ways to tackle social problems etc. tend to always come from people who are simply unable to put themselves in others shoes or to look at things from a different perspective. Problem is that these same people think they are capable of doing it and cant see that they really aren’t and are basing all their opinions on a limited mind-set.

I suppose the one benefit of this is that as frustrating as it can be sometimes, it's better that these discussions happen than not. In the end, whether people remain close minded or not, it is getting attention, it is getting people talking and it is not just slowly fading out of public consciousness. I wouldn't say it's 'bad press is better than no press', but something like that.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

just like they did with Move, right? Sony has a terrible track record for supporting stuff long term if its not meeting expectations

While that may be true for Move, Sony have gone on record as saying that Morpheus is considered a platform and not an accessory and so will be supporting it as much as they think they need to for it to be a success. I mean you could use Vita as an example of a system that wasn’t supported but it did start out well and had some great games but because the system failed to take off they saw the writing on the wall and didn’t have any choice but to switch development to PS4 instead.

I suppose the one benefit of this is that as frustrating as it can be sometimes, it's better that these discussions happen than not. In the end, whether people remain close minded or not, it is getting attention, it is getting people talking and it is not just slowly fading out of public consciousness. I wouldn't say it's 'bad press is better than no press', but something like that.

Oh for sure, I can see that.

I think that the lesson to take away is that no matter how much the argument goes on, those who are actually informed or have enough foresight to anticipate trends and look at the bigger picture on a subject must always tackle these flawed and sometimes poisonous opinions in the battle to stop them spreading more and more and being a negative influence on other people.

It will probably be a never ending battle with some people but if you can show someone a different and positive opinion about something then make sure you do it.

The worse thing about it all though is that these flawed/ill-informed opinions aren’t exclusive to forum posters but as we can see goes to people who talk about this stuff for a living and thus have the potential to influence more people than we can ever do ourselves.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

*Sorry, double post*

 

[Dr. Kaos]

John makes some coherent arguments but anyone who compares VR to 3DTV has an untrustworthy judgement.

I knew for the get-go that 3DTVs as they were built would flop, It was absolutely obvious. Only fools wouldn't realize this. The 3D was weak and it lowered your brightness by half. HALF! It also lowered your resolution by half.

Ridiculous.

VR, on the other hand, is just magical. And we all love magical things. We fucking love'em.

 

[waters10]

If your eyes were only focused to a point inches in front of you, in the VR world, everything would be a blur, because there, things are not just inches in front of you anymore. It would also be intensely uncomfortable for any period of time.

Yeah, our eyes were not designed to focus at such short distances. If the lenses were not focused at infinity, it would be a safety hazard. We can focus at short distances, but anything more than a few minutes would start to damage our eyes. Focusing at infinity is where our eyes are most relaxed.

I can't wait for VR to launch! Then we can move on with our discussions here! At this point, everyone has their opinion on how VR is going to sell and no arguments will change each other's mind.

 

[Turin Turambar]

I was watching before a Morpheus video of a FPS tech demo that made me think "yep, they are going to make new genres for VR".

Because the shooting was really poor. I was thinking how to improve the gunplay, when I noticed how you actually can't add recoil. If you have your weapon in your hand, it doesn't make sense for the virtual gun to "climb up" when firing when the plastic gun that have in your hand is steady and in the same position.

It's the same problem of doing a "realistic" VR sword fighting game, the sword don't have collision in real life, so you can move the sword in your hand (the physical object) in ways that doesn't make sense in the game.


The abstraction of controls in normal video games actually allow for a lot more freedom of experiences.

 

[DJ88]

Doubling the amount of information you have to render and still maintaining acceptable performance is a pretty, pretty, preeeeetty important skill to have for VR.

Correct, that is something you can gain experience from for VR, my mind slipped there. But for a good VR experience, the game needs to be built from the ground up for VR. Simply getting your game to run smoothly in 3D doesn't teach you anything about, control inputs for VR or player and camera movement to prevent motion sickness.

 

[nycgamer4ever]

Anyone saying this now is a bit short sighted. Sure it may not become the next best thing in the gaming space but there is a lot of practical use for it in non-gaming spaces.

 

[Soi-Fong]

Correct, that is something you can gain experience from for VR, my mind slipped there. But for a good VR experience, the game needs to be built from the ground up for VR. Simply getting your game to run smoothly in 3D doesn't teach you anything about, control inputs for VR or player and camera movement to prevent motion sickness.

HUD and UI are another thing. A flat UI does not work. There's a good reason why some of the best demos for Oculus are breaking UI norms.

 

[a.wd]

VR just shot themselves in the foot.

I don't know how much the rest of you know about PC culture (I'm an expert), but imagination and monitors are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in consoles where you can become successful by waggling you're arms like an asshole. If you make someone sweaty in PC gaming, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the PC master race, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase VR for either headset, nor will they purchase any of VR's games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but VR has alienated an entire market with this dizzying movement.

Valve, Oculus, publicly apologize and cancel VR or you can kiss your business goodbye.

Interesting interpretation, stuck the landing 8/10

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

LOL right guys. VR is literally the next step. Even if you fucking fall your ass through this step you aren't going to flop over and die IMO.

Maybe this gen VR doesn't "change" things but in 5 or 6 years it will certainly start to do that.

 

[TheFatMan]

I won't lie. I am very leery of VR. It just reeks of industry gimmicks we have seen in the past. Like motion control (you know, cuz all these big AAA games are using that these days), or 3D, or the WiiU's tablet controller.

I'm not saying VR is terrible and that it can't find a place in the market. And hey maybe it will turn into the next big thing.

But anyone in the VR business who doesn't think this is going to be an uphill battle to convince parents (and there kids) and adults to strap a helmet onto there heads to play video games is kidding themselves in a very big way.

I wish you luck, because I love the video game industry and want it to succeed in all of it's many ways. Besides, being proven wrong is fun!

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

I won't lie. I am very leery of VR. It just reeks of industry gimmicks we have seen in the past. Like motion control (you know, cuz all these big AAA games are using that these days), or 3D, or the WiiU's tablet controller.

I'm not saying VR is terrible and that it can't find a place in the market. And hey maybe it will turn into the next big thing.

But anyone in the VR business who doesn't think this is going to be an uphill battle to convince parents (and there kids) and adults to strap a helmet onto there heads to play video games is kidding themselves in a very big way.

I wish you luck, because I love the video game industry and want it to succeed in all of it's many ways. Besides, being proven wrong is fun!

I know but right now you are just convicing them to play some demos and get used to infantile tech. This is not so easy to ignore when tech is basically putting you inside games like Witcher 3 in 5 or 6 years at the very top end. Even still say it is ignored for a bit longer. In 10-12 years the whole thing will have shifted. This "flop" will be coming full circle into its own. I mean you can't stop this IMO. Inevitable.

 

[Teppic]

Well if that's how your vision in real life, then you're not exactly going to know what you're missing anyways.

Not true at all. I don't think you understand how it is to have impaired vision. I can see regular games pretty well, it's not that hard to think how VR would be like. I can see 3D in real life too, but it's not as sharp, which means playing games like that would be pretty bad.

 

[Wolf Dawgz]

I feel like because people are saying it will fail, it will actually succeed.

 

[Whitman's Ghost]

I feel like because people are saying it will fail, it will actually succeed.

I think games like rigs or whatever are going to become hugely popular one day.

 

[digitalrelic]

I feel like because people are saying it will fail, it will actually succeed.

 

[ZOONAMI]

VR will not take off in any meaningful way until it is inside your head via a chip implant and/or contact lenses.

 

[MUnited83]

It might shatter some worldviews in here.. buy there are people who don't want to wear a disconnecting piece of plastic all over their face at home and they have tried it.

It's like talking to Jehovas Witnesses sometimes. You have to experience the lord! ^^

Well, i'd expect those people to not watch TV at all or use smartphones then. Just as "disconnecting pieces of plastic" as VR is.

I won't lie. I am very leery of VR. It just reeks of industry gimmicks we have seen in the past. Like motion control (you know, cuz all these big AAA games are using that these days), or 3D, or the WiiU's tablet controller.

I'm not saying VR is terrible and that it can't find a place in the market. And hey maybe it will turn into the next big thing.

But anyone in the VR business who doesn't think this is going to be an uphill battle to convince parents (and there kids) and adults to strap a helmet onto there heads to play video games is kidding themselves in a very big way.

I wish you luck, because I love the video game industry and want it to succeed in all of it's many ways. Besides, being proven wrong is fun!

VR is not only for videogames. Even if it doesn't take off in videogames it will take off in other sectors.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Well, i'd expect those people to not watch TV at all or use smartphones then. Just as "disconnecting pieces of plastic" as VR is.

Absolutely apples and oranges. VR in it's current state is a digital blindfold to the real world. Phones and television are technological entertainment that are merely a distraction from what's actually happening in a room. They don't physically blind and deafen you.

 

[Birgitte2004]

If you lead with a comparison to a gimmick like 3DTV, you don't get it. A comparison to Kinect? Really? Presence will be like a powerful drug. Displays that can really start to achieve that are only now becoming available, so to bring up early VR (which is universally hated) is pointless. I'm sure twenty years ago, people were talking about how cell phones wouldn't be that big a deal or would be niche.



Computers, TVs, and cell phones all heard the same thing.

Flippantly dismissing a comparison to what could be argued as similar tech could also be called "not getting it".

If VR's first wave has slow adoption and turns out to not be worth the money, that could kill VR forever...because once it's seen as a poor investment it is a tough hurdle to convince yourself to start making VR media again. Which is kind of what happened to 3D TVs.

And yes, Computers, TVs, and Cell Phones heard the same thing. And yes, they succeeded. But it's hard to predict ahead of time what will succeed and what won't, and just because there are successes means nothing about guaranteeing future success for a different product, no matter how similar.

I have absolutely no idea whether VR will or will not fail.

 

[Seanspeed]

Not true at all. I don't think you understand how it is to have impaired vision. I can see regular games pretty well, it's not that hard to think how VR would be like. I can see 3D in real life too, but it's not as sharp, which means playing games like that would be pretty bad.

I am short sighted myself. That said, there are different degrees and forms of vision impairment, but I am not completely ignorant of what being vision impaired is like.

1 - you say you see regular games pretty well. What sort of viewing situation are you talking about specifically? If you can sit in your living room and play a video game on your TV, through glasses or not, your near sightedness obviously isn't going to be *that* bad. In which case, you'll be ok in VR.

2 - being able to see 3D is an entirely different issue, completely unrelated to near/far sightedness.

 

[ido]

Flippantly dismissing a comparison to what could be argued as similar tech could also be called "not getting it".

It's not similar tech, though.

If VR's first wave has slow adoption and turns out to not be worth the money, that could kill VR forever...because once it's seen as a poor investment it is a tough hurdle to convince yourself to start making VR media again. Which is kind of what happened to 3D TVs.

3D is a bullet point on almost every major TV purchase today, even if nobody is using it. The problem with 3DTV's is the reverse with VR, imo. It sounds cool, until you try it. With VR, it's sometimes just the opposite: to some it sounds gimmicky, but once tried is highly impressive to most people.

 

[mario_O]

VR replaces the role of the imagination, and for a while that feels like a bonus, a boost. But then once your eyes are stinging from sweat, you’re head’s exhausted from carrying the gear, Actually, the new Oculus Rift (CV1) is very light, made of fabric, people are reporting they could wear it for hours. and your dizzy as fuck from constantly spinning about trying to see everything, the idea of a chair and a monitor suddenly becomes very appealing. Dizzy? good VR experiences will avoid that
But the price and lack of a large enough user-base isn’t the issue either. There are many players here: Sony for the PS4, wont be too expensive. Valve, Facebook will require a good PC, but tech keeps getting cheaper; and then Samsung etc with mobile VR that will only require your phone, basically
The issue’s not even that most people won’t want to stumble around in their extremely confined space filled with sharp-edged furniture wearing a cumbersome blindfold, trying to stave off motion sickness long enough to shoot an alien. Stumble? I haven't stumble with anything on DK1 and DK2. Most VR experiences are designed to be seated, and Valve is putting a lot of effort with their room-sized VR.

The issue is the games.

There will be a few high-profile games build for VR to accompany the launch of the rival systems. After this, publishers will not want to waste hundreds of millions on further VR-only projects, but will support a VR mode for their larger games. At that point players will be in the same situation as cinema-goers are now, where major movies are filmed and released in 2D, with a skew-whiff 3D version created in post-production and given a higher entry fee. Given the choice, the sensible film watcher recognises that the film was designed and intended for 2D, so sees it in 2D. And game players will get savvy to this too – they’ll realise that if a game works fine on a monitor or TV screen, then the VR version can’t be much more special. Eventually developers will stop wasting time putting the VR mode in (much as the brief dalliance with 3D modes for games quickly went away), and games will go back to how they’ve always been, and how everyone has always wanted them to be. Wrong again, developers will make games, apps, especifically for VR, a VR mode wont work with many types of games.This is not 3D. And I don't think they'll need to spend "hundreds of millions of dollars"; the thing about VR is that even very basic graphics can be incredibly immersive. Indie devs will thrive.

...

 

[waters10]

That was pretty awesome

Now that's a cool VR discussion! I love 2 points he raises:

First, change your mindset of "how would that franchise work in VR?" to "what other cool experience this will bring me, other than the same old rehashed stuff we get every year". Exploration and Character interaction! Think about how those things will be in a completely different level. For people that are burned out of games and want innovation in gaming, VR is what they should be looking forward to!

And second, speed of games. VR games will have to be a lot more realistic. Closer to real life physics and speed! You do that in a traditional game and it's a recipe for bored gamers and low sales. In VR, it'll click with people and it'll work!

 

[TSM]

The article doesn't even mention the largest obstacle. Gamers as a whole are cheap as shit. After the initial wave of enthusiasts buy in the big hurdle is going to be getting people to pony up for optional hardware.

 

[GungHo]

I think there are more cases for commercial use of VR than private use, particularly for things that require manipulation of 3D and 4D modeling where you want to allow for multiple people to be able to share and manipulate the same space. It's certainly cheaper than the multi-million dollar rigs with 3D glasses, custom boxes, and giant Christie projectors that you have to use now.

I think things will need to be further along for this to be attractive in the consumer space. I don't really want to wear special equipment to do this. Honestly, I want a holodeck.

 

[Finalizer]

Can you imagine being a person living with other people putting something on your head that disconnects you from the real world? I can't.

 

[DavidDesu]

I think games like rigs or whatever are going to become hugely popular one day.

Definitely. People love competitive fast paced gaming and one of the things holding back people embracing VR is believing that those fast paced games were going to have to go on the back burner for a while. Everyone talking about VR is talking about how you need to slow down gameplay and dial everything back from the ridiculous level of something like CoD. So yeah Rigs and other games like it will play a big part in converting many to VR. If you love competitive arena style games like CoD then why wouldn't you want to play that and be completely immersed and feel like a real bad ass?

I'm looking forward to just whole new genres and new takes on old genres which will be essential for VR if it is to be done right. Quite why everyone wants us to just carry on until Halo 10 and keep playing it as it is today just with shinier graphics is beyond me. Don't gamers want cool new experiences. VR WILL deliver on that front. This is not a gimmick. I know many have been burned by motion controls and 3D and this is like a merging of those two gimmicks to the uninitiated, but VR really is different. It is the next evolution, truly.