Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
I swear the only reason nostalgia exists is because something new comes along. If episode 7 was never a thing, no one would ever call anything the prequels did anything above bad.
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RTTP: Revenge of the Sith (It's better than TFA, fight me!) (GIF Overload!)
- Thread starter Back-In-Black
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I'd actually agree with this, from a certain point of view. I feel like when you're ranking Star Wars, you have to do it in two ways: ranking them as films, and ranking them as Star Wars films. (e.g. The Dark Knight is the better film, but Batman Begins is the better Batman film)
From a technical POV, The Force Awakens is one of the best films in the saga. I had a fantastic time watching it in the cinema on release, and it's absolutely a better film than any prequel. But from an in-universe POV, in terms of what it adds to this fictional world and ongoing story, I'd say it's the worst. When I think "what is good Star Wars?", I think of all three prequels well before TFA. (Although I did grow up with the prequels and bought into the merchandise mania, so I may be biased! But passing the story to new generations is kind of the point, isn't it?)
Heh, that is exactly how I would rank them. Although I think I would put a whole lot more ">>>"s between ROTJ and ROTS.
And a big nod of agreement on that last bit. The prequels are terrible on a basic, fundamental movie making level and, yeah, complain about 'originality' or whatever else you like but TFA is a movie with a clear structure, actual characters with arcs, and a director who knows what the hell he is doing.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
TFA might be obnoxiously safe, but it's a well made movie that channels what people expected out of a Star Wars movie. It felt like a Star Wars movie and nice continuation to me, who watched the originals back in the early eighties in cinema.
RotS might have taken creative chances, but is just a big pile of dung, which didn't feel like SW to me.
It feels more "Star Warsy" than AotC. Plus it didn't have the forced love dialogue and other trash. Plus Darth Maul felt like a great, though underused villain.
RotS might have taken creative chances, but is just a big pile of dung, which didn't feel like SW to me.
It feels more "Star Warsy" than AotC. Plus it didn't have the forced love dialogue and other trash. Plus Darth Maul felt like a great, though underused villain.
There is nothing interesting going on in ROTS. People say things like this but never give examples.
And it can't be said enough: The "safe"ness of TFA is directly linked to just how terrible the prequels were.
Chuckie
Member
It is safe, but it is because the filmmakers knew exactly what people disliked about the PT.
Personally I find the Anakin/Padme story in AOTC to be the absolute worst thing in all of the prequels.
And as an actual story, TPM actually hangs together, it is still terrible and largely boring but it feels like you watched an actual movie when it is over. AOTC is jam packed with incident but it never coalesces into anything.
Love story.
Detective story.
"Begun the Clone Wars have." Well, yeah, it is kind of your fault there, Yoda.
The end.
Chuckie
Member
Around the survivors a perimeter create!
TeamLeftMatch
Member
I love ROTS, no argument from me.
Was that supposed to be a serious scene, because it looks hilarious. Sorry, just lauged when Palpatine just jumps and it looks like those FMV games
It's absolutely dreadful. Shot in such a claustrophobic way that every scene feels uncomfortable. The tone bounces from childish slapstick to dark violence so frequently it gives me whiplash. The dialogue is so poorly written and delivered at gun point. Everyone is just standing around staring at each other, with no interaction with the world around them. It's a parade of fuckery.
When I saw it in theaters I thought it was pretty damn good. I was also a fucking idiot back then. I watched it a few months ago and was surprised to find it's so bad it made my teeth hurt. Truly one of the worst big budget movies ever made. Every single thing about it screams amateur hour horseshit.
When I saw it in theaters I thought it was pretty damn good. I was also a fucking idiot back then. I watched it a few months ago and was surprised to find it's so bad it made my teeth hurt. Truly one of the worst big budget movies ever made. Every single thing about it screams amateur hour horseshit.
I'm one of those who dislikes both. The prequels tried to expand the Star Wars universe and did so poorly, and are not good films besides. The Force Awakens stays so strictly within the lines that it bores me to tears.
But I see we've reached that point in the conversation already.
But I see we've reached that point in the conversation already.
Spiritwalker
Member
It was more fun and memorable than TFA, which was just meh.
Yautja_Warrior
Member
TFA might have played it safe but after most people were disappointed with the prequels, playing it safe was probably for the best with the first new film and it paid off for the most part. TFA isn't perfect of course but it's pro's far outweigh the cons with it's better SFX, better cast (new and old) and better acting, which makes it a much better film than RotS.
I enjoy RotS, it has some good moments and it's by far the best of the prequels but it still has some major flaws. Dooku and Grievous are not great villains because they are not given anything of real importance to do, other then serve as cannon fodder. I mean after all his build up, they have Grievous killed with a blaster for god sake, terrible end to the character.
I still think they shouldn't have killed off Darth Maul in Episode 1 tbh, he was a much better villain, as he actually felt like a threat to the Jedi, he did kill Qui-Gon, a powerful Jedi master after all and would have been much more of a thorn in the Jedi's side, for Episode 2 and 3, than Dooku and Grievous ever was.
I enjoy RotS, it has some good moments and it's by far the best of the prequels but it still has some major flaws. Dooku and Grievous are not great villains because they are not given anything of real importance to do, other then serve as cannon fodder. I mean after all his build up, they have Grievous killed with a blaster for god sake, terrible end to the character.
I still think they shouldn't have killed off Darth Maul in Episode 1 tbh, he was a much better villain, as he actually felt like a threat to the Jedi, he did kill Qui-Gon, a powerful Jedi master after all and would have been much more of a thorn in the Jedi's side, for Episode 2 and 3, than Dooku and Grievous ever was.
CaviarMeths
Member
Yeah.
Knew before clicking on this thread that criticism of TFA would begin and end with "rehash."
Wake me up in a few years when someone manages to say something else about it.
Knew before clicking on this thread that criticism of TFA would begin and end with "rehash."
Wake me up in a few years when someone manages to say something else about it.
I really dislike both films and I think they're some of the worst big budget films I have ever seen. I think they're both boring, has really terrible plot and characters and are chock full of cringe inducing scenes (for the record, I feel the same about Revenge of the Sith).
But I also thinks The Phantom Menace looks much much better. Attack of the Clones' CGI effects had aged terribly (and I don't think they were all that great to begin with. I'll be honest here, I might be misremembering this, I mostly remember hating the movie's plot and how fucking boring it was, but I don't remember being impressed with the special effects).
So while I don't think that ranking films is the most interesting or productive thing in the world, if I'm forced to make a call, I'll chose The Phantom Menace.
Monocle
Member
It's only because I'm so in love.
Sunster
Member
But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!
True Savior
Member
Whiny teen sounds like whiny teen.
No one in a relationship sounds like Anakin and Padme.
For everything the prequels did wrong they also got a lot of things right.
The costume design is fantastic for the most part, same as the designs for the ships, droids etc. It looks and feels like the more civilized time Obi-Wan spoke to Luke about.
The score is amazing, so many memorable tracks.
Some interesting themes are touched upon, while the execution is lacking it still gives these films a unique perspective on the universe.
Like sure, there is a lot of clunky dialogue, the story has too many threads that take too long to get moving but I can still appreciate these films for what they got right.
The costume design is fantastic for the most part, same as the designs for the ships, droids etc. It looks and feels like the more civilized time Obi-Wan spoke to Luke about.
The score is amazing, so many memorable tracks.
Some interesting themes are touched upon, while the execution is lacking it still gives these films a unique perspective on the universe.
Like sure, there is a lot of clunky dialogue, the story has too many threads that take too long to get moving but I can still appreciate these films for what they got right.
Monocle
Member
I think you're missing the point. That line alludes to a world beyond the screen. It also informs us about Luke's attitudenot only with what he says, but when and how he says it. It has a valid purpose, and it fits the narrative aims of the scene.
"I wanted to go do this other thing" conveys that Luke is a petulant self-centered young dude who would rather do his own thing than help out on his family's farm. We see he has a rebellious streak and he's not cut out for a boring life.
The ROTS line is hamfisted exposition in a moment that should have shown how Anakin and Padme felt about each other.
"I AM FEELING LOVE FOR YOU NOW" is a stupid, awkward, totally ineffective way to show the depth of a couple's feelings for one another. That scene would have worked so much better with no dialogue at alljust Anakin and Padme sharing a moment. Their stilted exchange kills any hint of authentic chemistry.
NekoFever
Member
TPM is a bit boring and has Jar Jar. But it's a good-looking movie, Liam Neeson is great, Darth Maul is a cool villain, Duel of the Fates is good. Its release was also a fun time to be a Star Wars fan, having it be the pinnacle of pop culture again after the wilderness years.
AOTC is a terrible-looking movie, that looked dated only a few years after it came out - never mind now that it's a film shot sub-1080p and hanging entirely on 2002 CGI. The Anakin/Padme romance is possibly the worst thing ever committed to film. The droid factory sequence is everything wrong with the prequels encapsulated in a single scene. The only things I like about it are Ewan McGregor channelling Alec Guinness and the Across the Stars theme.
I agree with the people saying AOTC is the worst big budget movie they've ever seen. There are worse movies, sure, but usually the worst you can expect from something with that profile, budget and level of expectation is mediocrity (i.e. The Phantom Menace).
ESB > ANH > RO > ROTJ > TFA >>> ROTS > TPM > AOTC
Star Wars has always been about characters. Memorable, fun characters. The plots have always been secondary. You want to criticize TFA for being too much like A New Hope? How about criticizing A New Hope being too much like Akira Kurasawa's The Hidden Fortress? Everything about the original Star Wars films is ripped wholesale from other works, particularly Asian cinema.
This, IMO, is why TFA is a much better film than all 3 of the prequels - the characters. The characters are great, regardless of the familiar story, and so are the performances. The characters in the prequels are TERRIBLE. Their performances are terrible. And while we are at it, so is the story - even of it is more original.
This, IMO, is why TFA is a much better film than all 3 of the prequels - the characters. The characters are great, regardless of the familiar story, and so are the performances. The characters in the prequels are TERRIBLE. Their performances are terrible. And while we are at it, so is the story - even of it is more original.
Hmm, I guess I have a clearer picture now.
I was looking at it from an enjoyment perspective. Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd, the pod racing and the Gungan/Droid warfare cancel out everything else. It really doesn't matter if one movie is -4 and the other -5, ultimately they're both in the negatives.
Still, if we're looking at it structure-wise, I can concede TPM edges AOTC
Monocle
Member
I have waited a long time for this moment, my little green friend.
P.S. What's "cowardly" about killing off one of the most beloved characters from the Original Trilogy as part of a complex villain's tragically misguided struggle with himselfa choice that has dire implications for every character connected to Han?
The Force Awakens did what Return of the Jedi couldn't. A lot of TFA is spent restablishing Han's arc so that it could be completed like it should have been in the original trilogy.
This is just insane. How does someone put ROTS over the original trilogy? Over Empire??
Twilight Gap
Member
I agree. TFA was uninspired safe garbage and I find it thoroughly boring outside of its cinematography. The prequels didn't always get it right but they are way more respectable for trying something different and in many cases succeeding. And hammy dialog ALWAYS trumps bland dialog.
The only reason I dislike the prequels is because The Clone Wars cartoon was way better, and I think it was a more realized version of George's vision for that era than the films could accomplish. It was nice to see The Clone Wars in live action, but I almost wish the prequels didn't exist so that the prequel series could have taken more risks. The only advantage Rebels has over TCW right now is that we don't know who makes it out alive. That tension was missing from TCW.
The characters are obnoxious focus tested tokens. I have a hard time giving a toss for these random youths with 1 dimensional "backstories". Episode VIII will need to make some serious strides in their development if they are to impress upon me any significance beyond driving the overarching Star Wars narrative.
The only reason I dislike the prequels is because The Clone Wars cartoon was way better, and I think it was a more realized version of George's vision for that era than the films could accomplish. It was nice to see The Clone Wars in live action, but I almost wish the prequels didn't exist so that the prequel series could have taken more risks. The only advantage Rebels has over TCW right now is that we don't know who makes it out alive. That tension was missing from TCW.
The characters are obnoxious focus tested tokens. I have a hard time giving a toss for these random youths with 1 dimensional "backstories". Episode VIII will need to make some serious strides in their development if they are to impress upon me any significance beyond driving the overarching Star Wars narrative.
dragonyeuw
Member
So love has blinded you?
Even if you like RotS, TFA is better than RotS simply because RotS is such a tremendous missed opportunity. It never really had much of a chance since Episodes 1 and 2 dropped the ball so hard in the first place, but the big "Anakin becomes Darth Vader" scene is nonsensical and partially hamstrung by Palpatine's weird-ass voice change, there's no emotion or punch to any of the Obi-Wan/Vader duel until it's already over, and that final Frankenstein surgery/armor scene is so close to a great moment until Vader screams "NOOOOOO!" like a goofball. I think I may have actually said "WHY?" out loud in the theater when I saw that for the first time.
Yeah, TFA played it safe, has the worst editing of all eight SW movies, and the entire Starkiller sequence makes no goddamn sense whatsoever from either a narrative or filmmaking perspective, but at least it didn't blow the biggest character moment of the entire saga for no reason whatsoever.
Yeah, TFA played it safe, has the worst editing of all eight SW movies, and the entire Starkiller sequence makes no goddamn sense whatsoever from either a narrative or filmmaking perspective, but at least it didn't blow the biggest character moment of the entire saga for no reason whatsoever.
Yeah, I don't go that far. For me, A New Hope and Empire are both a good deal above ROTS, but I do enjoy ROTS more than ROTJ.
Back-In-Black
Banned
Anything new or original?
The movies that tried to fit every possible character from the OT into the PT, many times to the movie's detriment, were new and original?
[edit]
I guess making bad movies rather than good ones was pretty bold of them, I give them that.
Chuckie
Member
Shit characters, some contrived plot about trade blockades and secretly build clone armies, way too much really crappy CGI, really bad acting, that fucking droid factory scene etcetera. That is what people don't like about the PT. And they avoided it with TFA....so yeah I am pretty sure the makers knew what most fans didn't like.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
People wanting the wheel invented with each new movie and complaining about TFA being safe. Y'all are fucking whack, for real.
I go to see Star Wars movies and expect to not see a Star Wars movie. I'm so tired of these Star Wars in my Star Wars.
autumnleaf
Member
None of that explains why they had to remake ANH. Things people dislike in the Prequels are not because they're not carbon copies of the Originals.
Back-In-Black
Banned
Nah, we just wanted a new SW story not a tired retread of the same plot especially when ROTJ was already heavily criticized for this but skirted by because it had enough new elements and was a last hurrah finale party movie for all the heroes.
Chuckie
Member
It is not an explanation of why TFA might resemble ANH... I am responding to someone who says the makers of TFA had no idea what people hated about the PT. All the things people hated in the PT weren't in TFA....so what does that say about the makers of TFA knowing what people hated about the PT?
Who is this 'we'? TFA got way better reviews from both critics and the public than any movie from the PT. To each his own, but don't act like you aren't in the minority.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
Whack.
Look, I can sympathize and understand that you wanted a new plot that didn't closely retread A New Hope, but contextually it's not difficult to understand why The Force Awakens does just that after a decade-long hiatus from what is considered one of the worst trilogies in a major movie franchise. Considering that, The Force Awakens is a hot take and even plot aside it is a beautiful and fantastically acted and produced film.
So once again, whack.
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