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RTTP: The game that shouldn't have been named Dark Souls II

Nev

Banned
I replayed DSII: SotFS recently and, a year later, I feel like I'm more lenient with the game, and even if I still hold my gripes with it, I'll make the effort to point out the good things too to differentiate this wannabe critique from the other Dark Souls II threads which are 90% of the time negative –understandably so.

But before that happens, I have to reiterate in why the game is without a doubt for me the worst Souls game. (The good things are in the latter half of the wall of text).

THE AREAS

A lot has been said about level design, it's no secret that the vanilla game has mediocre to bad level design across the board. There are only a few areas that are remotely close to what we can expect from the franchise, and these are Lost Bastille and Forest of the Fallen Giants. Nothing in any of the other areas is remarkable in a positive way. On the contrary, plenty of them are really bad, such as:


  • Doors of Pharros
This is supposed to be a place where a certain kind of people live after they were outcasted by the king. Barring the fact that no way in life this looks like an actual lived-in place, the area is just horrible. A ton of pharros lockstones with subpar rewards or a bizarre occurrence like having an enemy inside a small closet of stone (???) and the awful, awful dog rat boss fight I won't even comment.


  • Grave of Saints
Two corridors with pharros lockstones that are only useful for pvp and an excuse for a boss fight that is literally a bunch of rats.


  • Dragon Aerie
The only enemies here are some recycled passive guardian dragons and also recycled exploding mummies that break your inventory. It is in essence a glorified secret room full of loot. It is only made for the purpose of being a graphical showcase.

xnyRnTF.jpg

"Damn, looks nice. Could it be the next Sen's Fortress? It better be after this straightforward loot area. Oh".


  • Dragon Shrine
The length of a few Lost Bastille rooms, a couple of poorly designed knights and an army of enemies they turned into non-hostile because it was just downright insufferable. The optional boss fight is the very definition of cheap and lazy.


  • Shrine of Amana
The worst area in all of Souls, period. It has a decent ”quest" with the singer ladies and their secret shrine, and the atmosphere is good, but it's determined to throw it all away by making it one of the most frustrating, annoying, cheap and just god-awful areas in any of the games.
The boss fight is beyond easy, even if it has a refreshing design coming from all of the previous lack of inspiration throughout the whole game.


  • Drangleic Castle
Listen, I know Anor Londo had a bunch of square rooms or things that made little sense, I won't defend that, but this takes it to a whole new level. Anor Londo felt like an actual place, the enemies there were because they served a purpose in the lore. To put it simply, when the place was inhabited, the enemies just weren't in these places. Then you have Drangleic Castle, in which you have rooms full of stone enemies –that's all you have really– and absolutely zero hints of it being an actual castle.

I can imagine a room with a bed and chairs and tables to be a place where someone lived, I can't imagine what purpose can serve a room full of poison masks or some hall filled with statues that come to life only so you can activate an inanimate golem that opens a door to another empty room with a recycled ruin sentinel that was just... there? Waiting for someone to come?

The whole place is a complete nonsense through and through. The pool of corrosive acid that is spewed by some dragon statues, the rooms full of stone soldiers, etc. It definitely takes you out of the world and makes you feel like you're going through some bizarre obstacle course, not a real castle.


  • Black Gulch
A literal corridor with the most annoying enemies and poisonous totems that you're basically forced to rush through in 30 seconds. In retrospect it's actually a good thing that the boss is such a total pushover that you don't have to run through this excuse for a zone too many times.

Now, the fact that I don't mention other zones doesn't mean they're good, it means they're better than those, which I consider the absolute worst. It's not a particularly commendable feat all things considered, anyways.

Honorable mention to the welcoming courtyard inside the Iron Keep. The definition of clown cars. Absolutely horrible. I don't include it in the ”worst areas list" because I like the use of the environment and the theme, but man, did they try hard for it to suck. Remember that bonfire that made you run through that pvp arena every time the easy boss cheesed you by throwing you off the platform? To think you could reduce the path in half if you could jump over a half-inch step.

THE GAMEPLAY
This is by far my biggest issue with Dark Souls II. If this game hadn't butchered the gameplay in such a blatant way it would've been much, much easier to look past the subpar level and enemy design. But when you combine both, the result is just inexcusable.
It is the only game in the franchise that plays different. You can pick literally any of the other games, including Bloodborne, and feel right at home. All of them share the same core gameplay and controls, they feel the same. All of them except Dark Souls II, which for some reason thought it was a good idea to change everything by impairing the player. They very clearly didn't know how to make the game challenging with such pushover non-AI fodder enemies and ”Toddler's First Dark Souls" bosses, so their solution was making everything slower and sluggish.

The recovery time after any attack is significantly increased, meaning the most viable weapons in PvE are by far the big ones because even if you use a fast weapon, the recovery time before you can roll is so absurdly long that you're punished 90% of the time if you attack more than two times.

The enemies are incredibly poor, none of them has good AI, they throw a lot of them at you as soon as you enter a room because they know they didn't create a single enemy that can challenge the player in a 1v1 situation, and that includes bosses.

I remember getting destroyed by the red eyed knight in Demon's Souls, or the Silver Knight in Dark Souls, hell even by the executioner in central yharnam. And you don't even have to go as far; many normal enemies like the rapier undead in the Undead Parish or the skeletons in the Catacombs or the Shrine of Storms actually forced the player –be it because their positioning or because they had proper AI– to think and engage them in different ways that weren't just ”two shot them with a big weapon" and don't even think about it.

Sure, they become somehow pushover enemies when you master the game, but isn't that the whole point? Unlike in DSII, it isn't the stats making the player better, it's their actual experience overcoming the challenges throughout the game. There's nothing to ”master" in Dark Souls II, you just get better weapons and better stats and hope you two shot the useless mob so you can move on and don't have to bother seeing their pathetic attempt of an offensive.

Just compare the fight against a giant knight in Anor Londo with the giant mammoths of DSII. They couldn't even manage to make a big enemy challenging, so they put two of them in the Drangleic Castle, forcing you to cheese them because the gameplay is not suited for encounters with multiple enemies. Which is hilariously ironic because it's the one that pushed the concept to absurd levels.

There were mob gangbangs in the other games, but it never felt cheap or overwhelming because:


A) The way you move and attack allows you to tackle on multiple enemies. Faster movement, faster attacks, shorter recovery time, more stamina, faster stamina recovery. The polar opposite of Dark Souls II.

B) Most of the time they were trash mobs or enemies that were easy to 1v2, not giant mammoths or 5 Alonne Knights. Imagine entering a room in Anor Londo and being greeted by 4 melee Silver Knights and one archer. Just ridiculous. Unlike Alonne's though, the Silver Knights punish the player for their mistakes and have decent AI and moveset, so the developers don't have to resort to spamming them.​


No, I won't say the infamous build variety, replayability and accessible PvP are things that redeem the poor gameplay, because they absolutely aren't. Bloodborne has the least amount of weapons yet it's the most fun to play because all of them feel and play different. Having hundreds of weapons that are either a reskin of another one or feel like crap, lacking weight and having bad animations mean nothing to me.

Replayability follows the same principle: I don't welcome the improved replayability options when I don't really want to replay the actual thing because it was disappointing and the combat and bosses were beyond underwhelming. Same for PvP.

I liked the idea of the covenant of champions though. The rest are mostly recycled from DS one way or another.

The impression this game gave me is that they placed a much bigger effort into making it look pretty and show how cool the improved graphics enginge was than they did in making an actually good game.


THE BOSSES

Undoubtedly the worst selection of bosses in the entire saga. All of them except two gravitate Pinwheel levels of easy. Those two are Smelter Demon and Darklurker, which are only slightly above the rest in terms of challenge, but not inspiration. Not to mention the paths leading to them are both completely infuriating garbo.

Easy, boring, unrewarding, uninspired. Just awful, very very bad. You'd think they could've tried to redeem the poor level design if the reward was some decent boss, but oh boy, they're even worse than the levels.

I could write an entire essay on how they're horrible, but I'm confident everybody who played the game can easily tell how much of an absolute downgrade across all levels these bosses were from the rest of the games.

I'll mention Nashandra though because she's the final boss. She is the weakest, stupidest, silliest, ugliest, uninspired and easiest final boss ever created. Just god-damn-awful. A generic skeleton lady with literally 3 moves and an annoying gimmick. That's what she is. Terrible fight all around. Just terrible.

Thank god the previous boss is much... Worse. Two guys attacking you non-stop, run around until you find a window which allows you to attack once unless you want to be destroyed by their follow-up attacks.

Which pretty much sums the whole issue with the game. ”Run in circles while a lot of people chase you, wait so they attack you in a way you can counter attack, rinse and repeat. If you dare attacking more than once without a weapon that staggers them all you better be ready for the probable oneshot".

Necessary mention to the bosses' soundtrack: not a single memorable theme. The worst soundtrack in the franchise with only Majula's theme and Longing as good tracks.

THE LOOKS

Unlike the other games, Dark Souls II lacks a consistent theme and look. It's just a colorful world that doesn't fit with the theme of the lore, full of bright and colorful areas with bizarre lightning/day of time changes that are only there so the game can look nice and varied. It's a level selector, basically, and while the colorful, almost cartoony look can be refreshing after the gloom and washed out of the other games, it just doesn't fit at all and at the end of the day, making it more welcoming and cheerful contrasts too much with the lore and makes it a totally unbelievable world.

It feels more like a platforming game or something in which you go from the green zone to the red zone, the ice zone, the dark zone etc. The lightning with the torch and the real time shadows it casts is really nice though.

JuSUNQj.jpg

That torch lightning looks much better than in Bloodborne (really).

But enough of the bad, there is plenty of information out there about why the game is fundamentally flawed and the worst in the franchise. Let's get with the less bad.


THE LORE

Before SotFS, the lore was just alright. It was a retread of Dark Souls in many aspects, but it was decent if you don't mind the radical change of setting. When they made Aldia a proper character and retconned him to be important, it became more than alright. The more human approach, how it plays with the idea of what is humanity and why must they be subjugated to deities and their past deeds is interesting.

Aldia and Vendrick's story is good: the lore itself, the backstory is good, but the NPCs are forgettable and I couldn't care less about their stories or quests. Almost all of them are a bland rehash of some concept from DeS/DS, with the rest just being unremarkable. I guess the cat was cute though.

The thing is, while the story of Vendrick, the giants, Nashandra and Aldia is interesting, the game does its best to take you out of the story and make it seem like those things never happened in such a weird, bizarre and senseless world full of mediocre and odd design.

There's a feeling of otherworldlyness and weirdness that, unlike in DeS, is not a positive aspect of the game. Because it wasn't intended. The way the characters look and animate, the illogical structures and rooms, etc. It all contributes to the game feeling like it's happening in a world that is not or ever was real, and that's totally not what the game tries to do.

It tries to make you believe you're exploring actual places and not videogame levels. I'd describe it as a dream that looks sufficiently real to fool you into thinking it's actually real but has some weird elements that stand out in unsettling fashion to shatter the illusion that it was something real.

In Demon's Souls, the atmosphere was eerie, otherworldly and unsettling, but you can still believe these are actual people and living beings and it's an actual world with places that served a purpose. There's a really big difference.

The main issue with this aspect of the game, however, is not the lack of cohesiveness of one area with another –witch is still a problem–, it's the lack of cohesiveness with the game itself. In Demon's, Dark 1 and Bloodborne, the lore ties perfectly with the game, with how it plays, with how the levels are distributed, designed and played. Even the mechanics are part of the lore. Dark Souls II lacks that distinction that made the other games so fantastic in this regard.


THE QoL CHANGES
The menus are nicer to look at compared to those in Dark Souls. I'd say just about everything UI related is nicer to look at compared to DS, which is the ugliest and roughest of them all.

Consuming multiple souls and the grid inventory are a godsend. Navigating through the inventory in DS was horrible and is much more convenient in DSII. But because this is Dark Souls II we're talking about, they just had to make a step back too so they removed the object icon when you pick up something and they added a stupid delay when talking to NPCs and picking up items.


THE DLC

Now I wouldn't say this is the saving grace of the game because I honestly can't consider this as part of the same experience.

I don't know what happened with all that Shibuya mess, but the DLC was clearly not made by the same people or under the same direction as the main game. Playing the DLC was the first and only time in the game where I thought ”okay, now I'm playing Dark Souls".

Shulva and Brume are excellent, while Eleum Loyce was not as good imo but still leagues above the vanilla game.

The way the levels are designed is fantastic and what you would expect from a Souls game. The bosses are actual bosses! They're challenging and fun to fight. Yes, the combat with normal enemies is still mediocre because they'd need to overhaul the whole thing to make it play like an actual Souls, and the enemies are reskins and pushovers, but they introduced new elements to make it different and these mechanics were fun.

The switches and the ghost knights in Shulva, the environmental hazards in Brume, the verticality of the levels... They made the combat suck a bit less, even if most enemies were still ”two shot with a greatsword and move on" and the clown cars issue came back strong in Eleum Loyce, which is why it's the worst DLC. One noticeable thing is how the giant knights in Brume are significantly more fun to fight than literally any of the giant knights in the main game, and they didn't need to throw 4 of them at you at the same time.

yoQXCgT.jpg

"Looks like there's some stuff down there, and looks like I will be able to get there.
I can't believe I'm finally playing a Souls game!"

That said, they somehow found a way to tamper the experience with these stupid ”challenge" areas, but they're optional so I give them a pass even if they're complete trash and my experience soloing the gank squad boss is my worst ever time with a Souls game.

What I don't give them a pass for however, is for the memory of the old king or whatever its name is. The area before Alonne. Just, fucking ugh. Did Shibuya come back only to design the challenge areas and this crap level-editoresque Iron Keep rehash with an army of Alonne Knights and fire lizards? Just WHY would you lock a decent fight like Alonne behind this absolute bullshit of an area? Just... unbelievable, really.

I must mention the fight with the Ivory King too. Yes, the presentation is absolutely awesome. Dropping down to the arena, the subtle but creepy ambient sound, the battle and the way the boss itself comes out were really cool... The first time. When you have to get through the exact same event more than 3 times because you were oneshotted by the boss while learning his patterns, it stops being cool and starts being annoying instead.

Just how many times do you have to deal with the stupid knights that ignore your allies and focus the hell out of you before you can attempt to fight the boss? Jesus, way to destroy a great moment.

I guess the boss being a glorified Gwyn reskin in terms of fighting and lore would be a bit of a letdown if it weren't for the prior battle. Which, again, made up for the somewhat uninspired boss, but not when they force you to do it time after time.

All in all, the DLC was very good. There's not even a legit comparison to be made with the rest of the game. It's just on a whole different league, it's almost on par with the Souls franchise. And I say almost because the combat and gameplay is still Dark Souls II and that prevents these DLCs from being truly great.

vx7PVHP.jpg

"Woah, that's badass > Woah, that's slightly less badass > It looks cool but I'm not sure about the repeated structure of the fight > God, thank god that stupid gangbang is over > Jesus would you just come the f*** out of the portal so I can get it over with!"


CLOSURE
Dark Souls II shouldn't have been called Dark Souls II. That sums it up. If this game was named Obscure Souls or was released before any of the other games, it would've been a solid 8.5 including the DLC. As a Dark Souls numbered sequel, it's nothing but a 6, a 7,5ish if you count the DLC. These great DLC pieces can only carry the whole thing so much.

I fully, honestly, unironically believe this game should've been called Dark Souls: Drangleic or something along those lines. Make it clear that it's not the same thing, don't make players expect an actual sequel, sell it as its own thing. When you don't pretend it's a sequel to Dark or Demon's, you can be more lenient with the game's issues and differences. If you put a Dark Souls II name on it, you better meet the expectations and knock it out of the park, which definitely wasn't the case.

The game, I found on subsequent consideration and replay, serves a purpose: it makes you see how a different developing team would tackle on the Souls formula. It's so different –for worse in most cases, unfortunately– that if it was considered a spin-off (which I do), I'm confident it'd be regarded as a decent side experience considered the troubled development, sort of an optional palette cleanser in between the real deal, something that can help alleviate the fatigue and makes you appreciate the other games even more while still providing acceptable content for a spin-off, B project.

Unfortunately, the Dark Souls II name will forever be the game's biggest burden.
 

domstah

Member
If it's consolation, it was the game that proved that From couldn't do with Dark Souls what it did with Armored Core (poop out "endless" sequels with different development teams) - and is probably the reason Miyasaki runs the show now.
 
I do like Dark Souls 2, and it's really the reason I ended up getting into the series, not because it was the first one I played, but it was the first one I finished and started to understand. But after playing Dark Souls 1 afterwards, followed by Bloodborne then Dark Souls 3, I wholeheardedly agree.

I know it has garnered a lot of fans across GAF lately, and I'm not going to say its a shit game or anything because it in no way is. But to me it fails to live up to all the other games in the series. Dark Souls 3 shows how a Dark Souls sequel should've been done. Sure maybe the locale variety isn't that fresh, but there are really only so many places you can go in western fantasy before you've seen it all, and I feel like Dark Souls reached that point.
 

rhandino

Banned
Dark Souls II is actually my favorite and most replayed game in the series because a lot of thing you are complaining x_x (and I played them all... except Demon's Souls which I kind of hate) there is something about some areas like the exterior of Drangleic Castle, Heide's Tower of Flame and the Dragon Aerie that is just so cool to me and kind of want more of that.

And yes, the DLC is better than some parts of the main game but I think we knew that it was because the team was not tasked to salvage a damn mess of a project at the last minute so they managed to deliver a more focused and polished experience.

Except The Frigid Outskirts... Fuck.Those.Deers.!.
 

Ferr986

Member
I guess it's just me but I don't understand how you would give this game a 8,5 if it would be called Dark Souls: Drangleic but a 6 if it's called Dark Souls 2. If it's an 8 game it is no matter how it's called. but again, I guess it's just me.

I love DS2. Same with 1, 3 and Bloodborne. That each of them are pretty different and have their own strenghts and weakness makes them more replayable to me. 2 is the most flawed entry, for sure, but I think the good outweights the bad (same with the other games really). I'm happy with how the trilogy turned, even if all entries have problems, and I'll play them all for years and years to come.
 

Tokubek

Member
It's my most played souls-game. Countless hours of pvping with dozens of different builds. While I agree with most of your points OP, I still like it better than 3. I was kinda tired of souls games when I played that (even tho my favourite souls-boss is from 3).
 
I don't love it, but it's better than DS3 imo. I freaking hated it at launch but replaying it was a lot of fun. I like the build variety and it was the best MP in the series. I prefer the Bloodborne gameplay overall but I never noticed it feeling particularly different to any other souls game. Had the occasional stupid hitbox though.
 
I remember seing people on the internet praise the first dlc. I buy the first DLC. I meet the Gank Squad boss.

I no longer trust people on the internet.

Fume Knight is the only redeeming quality of Ds2
 
Great game, don't care what some people want to say. I loved my time with the game just as I did with the other souls games. It has its weak points for sure but the overall package was still a fantastic action rpg.
 
Clearly the worst in the series for the reasons you mentioned + ADP but I need to stomach through the main game of SOTFS to play the DLC one of these days. I wonder how many times I'll have to fight Pursuer to get there though.
 

ignata

Member
I'm struggling to convey my thoughts here, but DS I-III reminds me of a not-as-drastic Zelda I-III situation. II was different, but it was only the second in the series, so it didn't bother me that much as there was no expectation with how sequels were going to go. So I guess that's why it being called Dark Souls II was okay with me. I'd put it as my second favorite in the series
DS/DSII/DSIII/DeS/BB
which is probably where I'd also put Zelda II.

Meanwhile, III was more similar to the first one, but while it improved in ways that made things more user friendly, it was missing a lot of the charm (okay, the level design) of the original. It's like they tried to match the level design of DSI, but couldn't do it, nor did it matter with all the warps. DSII went all out in terms of bonfire warps, so I was okay with them taking that approach.

Going back to my Zelda comparison, Ocarina of Time was way too drastic of a change for me to be okay with it being a Zelda game. So if Bloodborne was called Dark Souls III, I would have been upset in the way that you seem to be upset over the naming of this game. But, as my ranking above shows, I didn't like BB that much, so maybe that's just on me.
 
Truer words have never been spoken. Good work OP, especially in regards to the feel of the game. People who dont pick up on this make me scratch my head. From the moment I was given control of my character in Thing Betwixt I knew something was up.

I've played so much of this series that at this point I can tell how the character will feel to control just by looking at the way they walk or run. Its why when BB leaked I was so ecstatic. It just looked like it controlled like a proper Souls game again.

Now, for FROM's upcoming game, I have to rid myself of this expectation and welcome with open arms whatever new they have in store.
 

J-Rod

Member
DSII is my favorite soulsborne game. I think it had the best multi, covenants, build variety, and balance.
I don't care that you can climb a ladder or take an elevator up and somehow be farther underground than when you started. That sort of stuff doesn't bother me.
 

Goldboy

Member
I like DS2 a lot but agree with everything you said. Any time I replay DS2 there are an abundance of areas that make me go "Oh no, I hate this area."

I do want to give a shout-out to one boss I never see talked about, though--Flexile Sentry. This is a boss with a cool design and an interesting concept that is ruined by the execution. The idea of being trapped in a small room with a boss as water slowly rises to hamper your movements is pretty neat actually. It's just a shame the actual boss is so easy and terrible that most people don't even realize the water's getting higher.
 
I'm struggling to convey my thoughts here, but DS I-III reminds me of a not-as-drastic Zelda I-III situation. II was different, but it was only the second in the series, so it didn't bother me that much as there was no expectation with how sequels were going to go. So I guess that's why it being called Dark Souls II was okay with me. I'd put it as my second favorite in the series
DS/DSII/DSIII/DeS/BB
which is probably where I'd also put Zelda II.

Meanwhile, III was more similar to the first one, but while it improved in ways that made things more user friendly, it was missing a lot of the charm (okay, the level design) of the original. It's like they tried to match the level design of DSI, but couldn't do it, nor did it matter with all the warps. DSII went all out in terms of bonfire warps, so I was okay with them taking that approach.

Going back to my Zelda comparison, Ocarina of Time was way too drastic of a change for me to be okay with it being a Zelda game. So if Bloodborne was called Dark Souls III, I would have been upset in the way that you seem to be upset over the naming of this game. But, as my ranking above shows, I didn't like BB that much, so maybe that's just on me.

What? Dark Souls III has unquestionably the best level design in the series. It might not be interconnected, which seems to be the word your looking for but each individual level, baring maybe one or two are far larger and more complex than either previous games. Lothric is probably the best designed level in the series.
 
The way the game feels is definitely my number one complaint with the game. I can forgive every other short coming, but that is the one that makes the game really unenjoyable for me. Movement feels floaty and hitboxes are a joke.

The biggest disappointment I've ever had with a game. I've tried so hard to give it a chance, but I just can't.
 
Lots of really good points in the OP and I agree with most of it. I still think it's a good Dark Souls game and wouldn't try to classify it otherwise.

The one aspect of the game they did very well was Covenants and multiplayer in general. It was by far the most fleshed out and engaging implementation in the series. I was shocked to see how DS3 regressed in this area.
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
I like DS2 a lot but agree with everything you said. Any time I replay DS2 there are an abundance of areas that make me go "Oh no, I hate this area."

I do want to give a shout-out to one boss I never see talked about, though--Flexile Sentry. This is a boss with a cool design and an interesting concept that is ruined by the execution. The idea of being trapped in a small room with a boss as water slowly rises to hamper your movements is pretty neat actually. It's just a shame the actual boss is so easy and terrible that most people don't even realize the water's getting higher.
Wait, the water gets higher?

I fought that boss with a very passive and cautious playstyle, and I still never noticed.
 
Should I bother playing this game? I'm currently halfway through DS1 and was planning on picking this up next, then picking up the DS3 complete edition. I've already beaten DS3, but didn't really get the itch or whatever until I beat BB and Nioh. So figured I would go back and give it another playthrough while also tackling the DLC. Having a blast with DS1 though despite it feeling a bit dated visually.
 
Should I bother playing this game? I'm currently halfway through DS1 and was planning on picking this up next, then picking up the DS3 complete edition. I've already beaten DS3, but didn't really get the itch or whatever until I beat BB and Nioh. So figured I would go back and give it another playthrough while also tackling the DLC. Having a blast with DS1 though despite it feeling a bit dated visually.

It is still a very good game, it just falls short of being a very good Dark Souls game. Play DS1 first, then this.

The online player base may be low, but read my post above. DS2 is by far the best multi-player Dark Souls game by a country mile.
 
Should I bother playing this game? I'm currently halfway through DS1 and was planning on picking this up next, then picking up the DS3 complete edition. I've already beaten DS3, but didn't really get the itch or whatever until I beat BB and Nioh. So figured I would go back and give it another playthrough while also tackling the DLC. Having a blast with DS1 though despite it feeling a bit dated visually.
You might as well at least give it a try. Like it's not a terrible game.
 
I probably liked it more than 3. I thought it was amazing but only started with Scholar so I have no idea how it was before.
 
You might as well at least give it a try. Like it's not a terrible game.

It is still a very good game, it just falls short of being a very good Dark Souls game. Play DS1 first, then this.

The online player base may be low, but read my post above. DS2 is by far the best multi-player Dark Souls game by a country mile.

Ok, thanks guys. It's only $16 with GCU and I've got a serious Soulsborne itch now. I feel like this genre is kind of making me not give a shit about any other games. I'm worried I'll even get bored of Zelda when I eventually get around to it. Pray for me haha
 

komorebi

Member
I couldn't finish DS2, that's how much I detest this game. You nailed a lot of my same feelings about it.

As far as I'm concerned Dark Souls 3 is the real Dark Souls 2.
 
Ok, thanks guys. It's only $16 with GCU and I've got a serious Soulsborne itch now. I feel like this genre is kind of making me not give a shit about any other games. I'm worried I'll even get bored of Zelda when I eventually get around to it. Pray for me haha
I feel ya. Bloodborne was the only reason I got back into videogames, then I followed it up with the Witcher 3 and Dark Souls III and I'm hooked again.
 
I feel ya. Bloodborne was the only reason I got back into videogames, then I followed it up with the Witcher 3 and Dark Souls III and I'm hooked again.

That's funny, I actually played DS3 and then did a hard mode playthrough of TW3. Wasn't until a few months back that I got a PS4, then hit Bloodborne and Nioh. I just love the exploration, and the fear and excitement these games can instill when you're doing something as simple as walking around a corner or opening a chest.
 
Fuck the Dark Souls 2 hate, it's better than 3. And I like 3.
It's too bad the world was constructed in such a pedestrian way but if it wasn't for that it could have been the best Souls game.

DS1 > Demon's Souls > DS2 >>>>> DS3 >>>>>>>>>> Bloodborne
 

daxy

Member
I thoroughly enjoyed DSII, couldn't really get into DS (on PC), and thought DSIII was so-so. DSII (SotFS) was my first in the franchise and I think that probably played a lot into it. Majula is a magical area. The music, the mood, the views. Fantastic. I thought it was amazing how all these interesting places that made up the world were connected in impossible ways with hallway, tunnels, and elevators seemingly transporting you hundreds of kilometers across Drangleic. It really played into the whole surrealist theme of the game. The story surrounding the king, Nashandra, and the giants was also really captivating. I don't get why DSII gets so much flack when it excels in so many other ways compared to the other games in the series. I wish Austin Walker would do a long-ass podcast to discuss how absolutely brilliant this game is in building a cohesive world that feels like it's an interactive experience of a mixture between an Edward Munch and Dali painting (in terms of atmosphere and tonality).

Needless to say, I disagree with much of what you've said with respect to its themes, atmosphere and cohesion. I personally didn't think the gameplay in DS or DSIII was demonstrably better, and hold that the second half of DS is somehow always forgotten in any critique of the game. DSIII is just unremarkable in each and every way imo. Don't have much of anything to say about it.

Also, the sub-title 'Scholar of the First Sin' is metal as fuck.
 

Toxi

Banned
What?
It's like the only good boss in the base game.
Eh

The Pursuer
Smelter Demon
Mirror Knight
The Lost Sinner
Velstadt

All pretty fun for me.

It depends on your definition of "good" though. Look at Dark Souls 1. Who are the good bosses in the base game? Ornstein and Smough, yes, but then who? Quelaag? Sif? Those are fine, but they're certainly not that much better than Mirror Knight.

Dark Souls 2's main problems with bosses are that it has too many bad ones (too many bosses in general in fact) and they almost all lack the visual style and spectacle of other Souls bosses.
 
That's funny, I actually played DS3 and then did a hard mode playthrough of TW3. Wasn't until a few months back that I got a PS4, then hit Bloodborne and Nioh. I just love the exploration, and the fear and excitement these games can instill when you're doing something as simple as walking around a corner or opening a chest.
Agreed, I haven't played Nioh yet but I can't wait to jump into it sometime this summer, or whenever it hits PC.
Fuck the Dark Souls 2 hate, it's better than 3. And I like 3.
It's too bad the world was constructed in such a pedestrian way but if it wasn't for that it could have been the best Souls game.

DS1 > Demon's Souls > DS2 >>>>> DS3 >>>>>>>>>> Bloodborne
I feel like this is bait.
 
Ok, thanks guys. It's only $16 with GCU and I've got a serious Soulsborne itch now. I feel like this genre is kind of making me not give a shit about any other games. I'm worried I'll even get bored of Zelda when I eventually get around to it. Pray for me haha

That is real possibility. After Dark Souls Combat and Witcher 3 quest writing I can't even touch Skyrim anymore. Bethesda has their work cut out for them.
 

KHlover

Banned
I almost didn't buy Dark Souls 3 because I had just played SOTFS prior. Thank god I did end up buying it, it's a way better game. Agree with just about every statement in the OP.

DS3>/=DS1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SOTFS
 

Sephzilla

Member
Dark Souls 2 is my least favorite Soulsborne game. It's still a solid game on its own, but it has far too many questionable design choices for me in terms of level design and gameplay mechanics for me to rank it anywhere close to the other games. For me Dark Souls 2 also runs head first into a problem that Armored Core had for a while, where there were a lot of weapons in the game but most of them were redundant weapons that were outclassed by other similar and straight up better weapons. So when people talk about "Dark Souls 2 had tons of build variety" I roll my eyes a bit because the variety comes from the fact that the game has a ton of fluff weapons that aren't actually viable. I vastly preferred Bloodborne's limited weaponset over Dark Souls 2 because while there wasn't much "build variety", there was at least the guarantee that whatever build I use will actually be viable.

And this is also subjective but I feel like Dark Souls 2 visually doesn't seem like an improvement over Dark Souls 1 and in some ways feels like a regression. Lightning feels extremely flat in Dark Souls 2, textures don't look as good, and it feels like there's a lack of visual consistency in the game. Some of the early areas in Dark Souls 2 straight up look bad. While I played Dark Souls 2, I had a similar "something feels off about all of this" feeling like when I played Devil May Cry 2 back in the day. Not trying to say that Dark Souls 2 is anywhere remotely as bad as DMC2 (its not) but I just had a similar feeling of something feeling wrong. The first time I saw DS2 recycle a boss from DS1 I felt my heart sink.

Bloodborne > Demons = DS1 > DS3 > DS2

And I'd stress that the gap between DS3 and DS2 is massive. And if we'd separate vanilla DS2 out from SOTFS, I'd rank SOFTS even lower because that game straight up feels like a romhack at times.
 
I feel like this is bait.

Nah. I think they're all good games but putting Bloodborne aside, DS3 felt like empty fan service to me. Like a more technically accomplished retread of DS1. Without any of its furious originality. I was tired and bored of it by the end. The world is better connected than it was in 2 but the covenants are broken and it's just too predictable. DS2 had a different voice, and a different feel and atmosphere compared to the first one and that's why it's still so unique.

Again, they're all great games, the Dark Souls 2 hate is just completely undeserved in my opinion.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I probably liked it more than 3. I thought it was amazing but only started with Scholar so I have no idea how it was before.

I'm probably with you. I like 3 a lot, but Dark Souls II is more memorable for me. It's also the Souls game I've played the most and find to be the most replayable.

All of the Souls games are excellent in different ways if you ask me.

Nah. I think they're all good games but putting Bloodborne aside, DS3 felt like empty fan service to me. Like a more technically accomplished retread of DS1. Without any of its furious originality. I was tired and bored of it by the end. The world is better connected than it was in 2 but the covenants are broken and it's just too predictable. DS2 had a different voice, and a different feel and atmosphere compared to the first one and that's why it's still so unique.

Again, they're all great games, the Dark Souls 2 hate is just completely undeserved in my opinion.

I see what you're saying with Dark Souls III. I really like the game, but everything about it just feels so "safe." It's really well put together, but it definitely lacks some of the uniqueness and mystery of the first two games. Maybe it's my fault for not experimenting more, but I felt like the Weapon Arts were largely a pointless addition.

I don't want to speak poorly of the game, though, as I think it's really excellent and probably the most consistently high quality entry in the series.
 

Toxi

Banned
Dark Souls 2 is my least favorite Soulsborne game. It's still a solid game on its own, but it has far too many questionable design choices for me in terms of level design and gameplay mechanics for me to rank it anywhere close to the other games. For me Dark Souls 2 also runs head first into a problem that Armored Core had for a while, where there were a lot of weapons in the game but most of them were redundant weapons that were outclassed by other similar and straight up better weapons. So when people talk about "Dark Souls 2 had tons of build variety" I roll my eyes a bit because the variety comes from the fact that the game has a ton of fluff weapons that aren't actually viable. I vastly preferred Bloodborne's limited weaponset over Dark Souls 2 because while there wasn't much "build variety", there was at least the guarantee that whatever build I use will actually be viable.
Dark Souls 2 actually has a lot of moveset variety too.

I'd argue Dark Souls 3 is the big loser here, at least for most of its lifespan. Bloodborne's "problem" with build variety stops being a problem when you realize virtually every stat layout has its own awesome weapon with a unique moveset. Dark Souls 3? You've got shitty sorcery, less shitty Pyromancy, shitty miracles, shitty ultra weapons, barely any dedicated Strength or Dex weapons... The recent patch buffed the hell out of Strength builds though. And the game pushes you to the same playstyle for all builds just like Bloodborne does, only without the awesome unique weapon move sets.
 

george_us

Member
Excellent post OP. I couldn't believe what I was playing when I first bought DS2. Normally I have to tear myself away from the controller, but I had trouble staying interested in DS2 for more than an hour at a time. I wound up beating Scholars of the First Sin but it still took several attempts for me to get into it and I pretty much deleted it as soon as I beat it. Just an utter mess of a game.
 
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