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RTTP: The game that shouldn't have been named Dark Souls II

Sotha_Sil

Member
Only played the base game (vanilla and SOTFS) and Sunken King. Overall, horrible level design and art direction, but the best build variety besides DS3. Some really cool and obscure hidden areas, but Ash Lake and Cainhurst were cooler.

I enjoyed the lore. It doesn't seem to connect to the other two well, but it does deliver the important message that the choices of the first game were essentially irrelevant, and strongly yet subtly advises what the player "should" do in DS3.
 

Aurongel

Member
Dark Souls 2's biggest sin is that it's a great game sandwiched in between two near-masterpieces. I was extremely vocal at launch about my issues with it but I've never once questioned that it's still some of the best gaming out there.
 

Eria

Member
It's good, but not great. A lot of my criticism would be over the lore/writing, characters, world design and overall aesthetic of the game. Miyazaki's absence really effected the game it seems. There was a cohesion and focus in his games that he really nailed in despite the flaws. DkS2 does make some minor improvements in the gameplay that I really appreciate but everything else feels uninspired for the most part.

I guess in the end it'll depend on which imperfect game has the least glaring issues to a person. I can definitely see the appeal of DkS2 and why some may like it more. Every Souls game is a mixed bag.

Worst game of the entire series, still a good game imo.
 

RevenWolf

Member
Far and away my favourite soulsborne game, I've clocked over 1,000 among all the different versions and platforms released.

It has the best pvp.

It has the best balance.

And it by far has the best combat of the series due to how many options you have.

Literally no other soulsborne game gives you as much of a blank slate for you to create a play style.

Want to be the best at dodging? Build it.

Want to be able to be a caster wearing heavy armour? Build it.

Want to be someone that beats people to death with two shields instead of a weapon? Build it.

This openness is then enhanced even more by giving you access to the majority of the weapons in the game almost immediately (including Ng+ weapons).

And the emphasis on animation priority in combat is perfect, it punishes you for taking wrong swings and emphasis tactical combat rather than reflex based combat.

Non of the other games in the series come close to that feeling imo aside from ds1.
 

KHlover

Banned
I seriously don't understand anyone who says DS2 plays better than DS3 or 1

Play DS2 for 10 mins, then switch right away and play DS3.

In DS2 what you experience is basically: shitty rolls, getting hit midroll ( unless you invest 403829 levels in ADP), sluggish attacks, crappy estus that recovers too slowly, healing gems ( ??? I guess they realized during developpement how crappy estus was so they decided to add these too? dunno), gank squads everywhere, boring and cheap level design ( I sure loved the path to the smelter demon in iron keep...), the whole ''enemies dont respawn if you kill them too much'' mechanic.... And last but not least, the most garbage bosses of the trilogy

Meanwhile, DS3 feels tight as fuck to play, rolls are satisfying and smooth, the estus system is good and works well, the level design is consistent and good except for like 1 area, music is way better

I mean, just open DS2 and roll once, then open DS3 and roll once... the difference is like night and day

Agreed. I played DaS 1/2/3 pretty much back-to-back starting at the end of 2015, without any real prior knowledge since the more...zealous...parts of the fanbase made me avoid Dark Souls threads like the plague (so I had no idea about the A-Team vs B-Team discussion surrounding DaS2). It's astounding how different DaS2 feels from DaS1 and DaS3. It's also pretty different visually. Both enemy and world design didn't really scream "Dark Souls" to me.
 

Laiza

Member
I'm 100% with Revenwolf on this one.

I guess at this point it goes without saying that it's all a matter of taste. For me, 2 (especially with the DLC and SotFS changes) is the strongest entry in the series without a doubt. I still appreciate the first game's finely crafted world, but good world design alone can't carry an entire game for me and the third game is just a stinker all-around.

Gameplay-wise, DS2 is the only entry that got me playing for over 500 hours. Wish I could say the same for the other entries, but them's the breaks.
Dark Souls 2's biggest sin is that it's a great game sandwiched in between two near-masterpieces.
I hope you're talking about Bloodborne and not Dark Souls 3, because, damn, I still don't know what people see in 3 to this day.

Worst entry in the series if you ask me. And by a decent margin, at that. Even after all the patches and DLC.
 

butman

Member
Dark Souls II is the souless and less memorable Souls game by far. The lack of Miyazaki is too noticeable in every aspect.

It's a good Action RPG but the worst Souls game.
 

RevenWolf

Member
I'm 100% with Revenwolf on this one.

I guess at this point it goes without saying that it's all a matter of taste. For me, 2 (especially with the DLC and SotFS changes) is the strongest entry in the series without a doubt. I still appreciate the first game's finely crafted world, but good world design alone can't carry an entire game for me and the third game is just a stinker all-around.

Gameplay-wise, DS2 is the only entry that got me playing for over 500 hours. Wish I could say the same for the other entries, but them's the breaks.

I hope you're talking about Bloodborne and not Dark Souls 3, because, damn, I still don't know what people see in 3 to this day.

Worst entry in the series if you ask me. And by a decent margin, at that. Even after all the patches and DLC.

Agreed, I get very little enjoyment from Dark souls 3.

To me it has the worst combat by far in the series, which is disappointing since I did enjoy the combat in bloodborne for what it was.
 

Goldboy

Member
Honestly, my main gripe with DS2 is actually the art direction. Barely any of the enemies or bosses look inspired at all from a visual standpoint, even in the otherwise excellent DLC. One huge reason I play these games is because the enemy and boss designs are so excellent and I love looking at them.

That's not to say there aren't exceptions, but I remember that this was my biggest disappointment with the game back in 2014.
 
I'm 100% with Revenwolf on this one.

I guess at this point it goes without saying that it's all a matter of taste. For me, 2 (especially with the DLC and SotFS changes) is the strongest entry in the series without a doubt. I still appreciate the first game's finely crafted world, but good world design alone can't carry an entire game for me and the third game is just a stinker all-around.

Gameplay-wise, DS2 is the only entry that got me playing for over 500 hours. Wish I could say the same for the other entries, but them's the breaks.

I hope you're talking about Bloodborne and not Dark Souls 3, because, damn, I still don't know what people see in 3 to this day.

Worst entry in the series if you ask me. And by a decent margin, at that. Even after all the patches and DLC.

People like it because it's a pure continuation of everything that made the first game great except maybe world interconnected-ness. It:
-Continues the story of the first game and brings it to a conclusion
-Most refined melee combat in the series
-Gameplay is fluid, faster than either previous games whilst still maintaining the feel of dark souls
-Massive, well designed, complex sprawling levels
-continued to streamline stats and UI
-Best designed and most creative bosses in the series(Soul of Cinder, Abyss Watchers)
-Best animation in the series
-incredibly strong and coherent art direction
-Will crafted world design
-Sense of journey(Seeing where you're going and where you've come from throughout the world, the eclipse event)
-Well done Questlines
-Great characters (Pontiff, Lothric Family, etc)
-Puts a twist on everything that it borrows from previous entries
-Quality consistency throughout the entire game (Doesn't fall off in the second half likr the first game)
-Still manages to be challenging despite prior familiarity with the series


Yeah, this game is a masterpiece. And if I was to ignore nostalgia, I'd put it above the first game because of the level design, fleshed out story, more interesting characters and quality consistency.

I can see why PvPers don't like the game, or non melee players. But outside of that section of the game (which I consider to be a small one, considering this is a single player first series) Dark Souls III is certainly a masterpiece. It has its own flaws and undoings, but it's merits far far outweigh any of them.
 

TyrantII

Member
ADP, poor animation, and enemy auto lock on dropped it to last in the souls series for me.

Your critique of the negative way they fucked with the combat nails it. And above all Souls is know for the fluid combat.
 
Far and away my favourite soulsborne game, I've clocked over 1,000 among all the different versions and platforms released.

It has the best pvp.

It has the best balance.

And it by far has the best combat of the series due to how many options you have.

Literally no other soulsborne game gives you as much of a blank slate for you to create a play style.

Want to be the best at dodging? Build it.

Want to be able to be a caster wearing heavy armour? Build it.

Want to be someone that beats people to death with two shields instead of a weapon? Build it.

This openness is then enhanced even more by giving you access to the majority of the weapons in the game almost immediately (including Ng+ weapons).

And the emphasis on animation priority in combat is perfect, it punishes you for taking wrong swings and emphasis tactical combat rather than reflex based combat.

Non of the other games in the series come close to that feeling imo aside from ds1.

Yes yes and more yes.

Try to down the King of the Giants and his minions will rise.
 

Landford

Banned
Surely you jest.

Sure, its a cycle, but its a different one. All the bosses who carry the Lord Souls (that you can only get in NG+ as a kind of easter egg) are different ones. Theres merit in saying that they are bad, but they are not rehashes.

Dark Firelink Shrine is straight up stolen from the Old Abandoned Workshop. Even people in the Bloodborne OT were kinda icky that Myazaki just repeated the idea.
 

Vanadium

Member
100+ hours. But I think the game design is significantly inferior to the other games. Multiple play throughs in other Soulsborne - 8 full DS3 clears - but I only beat DS2 one time with one character. I stopped for good at Fume.
 

Seiru

Banned
Dark Souls 2 is still my favorite souls game. Replayability, build variety, loot variety, and a sense of exploration. It nails all those points for me. Bloodborne is my least favorite From game, for the same reasons.
 

HYDE

Banned
Should I bother playing this game? I'm currently halfway through DS1 and was planning on picking this up next, then picking up the DS3 complete edition. I've already beaten DS3, but didn't really get the itch or whatever until I beat BB and Nioh. So figured I would go back and give it another playthrough while also tackling the DLC. Having a blast with DS1 though despite it feeling a bit dated visually.

I feel that you should instead play Demons Souls.
 

Laiza

Member
People like it because it's a pure continuation of everything that made the first game great except maybe world interconnected-ness. It:
[snipped for length]

Yeah, this game is a masterpiece. And if I was to ignore nostalgia, I'd put it above the first game because of the level design, fleshed out story, more interesting characters and quality consistency.

I can see why PvPers don't like the game, or non melee players. But outside of that section of the game (which I consider to be a small one, considering this is a single player first series) Dark Souls III is certainly a masterpiece. It has its own flaws and undoings, but it's merits far far outweigh any of them.
I would argue that the combat is actually the worst in the series. I mean, I'll give it points for flashiness, which it easily has going over previous entries, but flashiness does not a good combat system make.

They royally fucked up the balance between player ability and enemy movesets. It's very, VERY easy to end up with movesets that are simply not designed to deal with enemies that are as fast and aggressive as most of the enemies in this game. I tried to play through the game two-handing a spear and it was one of the most arduous, torturous experiences I have ever voluntarily endured.

This, by the way, is something that 2 nails. People complain about the "floaty" combat but it absolutely gets the balance between player speed and power versus enemy movesets. This is doubly reinforced by poise actually being a functional mechanic and weapons actually being balanced worth a damn.

It's so bad going from 2 to 3 that I have yet to complete a second playthrough of the game. It's the only entry in the series that has done this to me. I literally have no motivation to go through it again. I wish I could agree with regards to its other high points but even those are arguable for me. When the core gameplay loop is so frustrating and so unsatisfying it's really hard for anything to make up for it.

Just one of those things, I suppose.
 
Sure, its a cycle, but its a different one. All the bosses who carry the Lord Souls (that you can only get in NG+ as a kind of easter egg) are different ones. Theres merit in saying that they are bad, but they are not rehashes.

Dark Firelink Shrine is straight up stolen from the Old Abandoned Workshop. Even people in the Bloodborne OT were kinda icky that Myazaki just repeated the idea.
The concept of a light and dark world wasn't invented by Bloodborne, has existed in fiction for hundreds of years and many other videogames long before. It wasn't "stolen" from Bloodborne. The two also serve entirely different purposes in the story. Bloodborne's Hunter Workshop is there to establish the difference between reality and alternate dimensions of sleep/dreams. If you're going to complain about being creatively bankrupt based on something like that, you should know that that whole idea, along with Bloodborne's creature design, art direction and lore is based heavily off of the literary works of HP Lovecraft, and all elements of it have existed in many games previous to it.

The "Dark" firelink is there to concretely express the idea that time in Lordran is convoluted and doesn't make sense. Because while that should logically be a vision of the future, it's a vision of the past, it's already happened prior to the events of Dark Souls III.
This idea was also not invented by Dark Souls or Bloodborne. A time paradox is something that's existed in literature for hundreds of years.

So no, it wasn't taken from Bloodborne.

And in what way are Ornstien and the Bell Gargoyles not rehashes but Anor Londo is? They're ripped straight from Dark Souls 1 with no reason it explanation to exist within Dark Souls 2.

At least in the case of Anor Londo it's different, it shows the passage of time, the city grew cold and froze over with the absence of sunlight and the eternal night, in addition to the entire Pontiff storyline which is about him trying to usurp the positions of the gods as ruler. which is why he traps sickly Gwyndolin and feeds him to Aldritch, to both get rid of a powerful enemy and to strengthen a powerful character that's loyal to the Pontiff, who's all about manipulation to the point where he didn't stop at trying to trap Gwyndolin, but also wipe out the entire god Blood line (The dancer, Possibly rosaria) He also influences Prince Lothric into not linking the fire so that Aldritch and the Pontiff can bring on the age of the Deep who's influence is spread from Irithyll all the way down to the church with the Pontiff's outriders occupying Lothric Castle.

It's easy to go "Wow what a rehash!" If youve got no idea what's going on, but it would be stupid for that entire thing to play out anywhere other than Anor Londo, of which you hardly spend any time in anyway, you spend most of your time in Irithyll, the lower city (which people had wanted to see in the first game) and there's the fact that Anor Londo is reasonably different from the first games depiction of it. Smouldering Lake and the Demon Ruins have a lot of reason to exist in the game too, and there's a clever reason as to why the Abyss Watchers resemble Artorias so closely, and its for irony rather than fan service. The whole game is like this, and to write it all off as a rehash comes off as incredibly disingenuous and over simplifying.

There's merit in every design decision in this game and that's another reason I feel it's a masterpiece, unfortunately a lot of that nuance goes unnoticed unless it's straight up told to you in game, which isn't what this series about.

If you're dissatisfied with fewer new locales, fine whatever that's a fair reason to be upset and an equally fair. If you don't care about the lore, that's fair too, I know not everyone plays and enjoys these games the same way i do.To call any of the areas in the game a rehash outside of Irithyll jail would be a fallacy and dishonest considering its a sequel capitalizing on its established lore, which is by definition what a sequel is.

I would argue that the combat is actually the worst in the series. I mean, I'll give it points for flashiness, which it easily has going over previous entries, but flashiness does not a good combat system make.

They royally fucked up the balance between player ability and enemy movesets. It's very, VERY easy to end up with movesets that are simply not designed to deal with enemies that are as fast and aggressive as most of the enemies in this game. I tried to play through the game two-handing a spear and it was one of the most arduous, torturous experiences I have ever voluntarily endured.

This, by the way, is something that 2 nails. People complain about the "floaty" combat but it absolutely gets the balance between player speed and power versus enemy movesets. This is doubly reinforced by poise actually being a functional mechanic and weapons actually being balanced worth a damn.

It's so bad going from 2 to 3 that I have yet to complete a second playthrough of the game. It's the only entry in the series that has done this to me. I literally have no motivation to go through it again. I wish I could agree with regards to its other high points but even those are arguable for me. When the core gameplay loop is so frustrating and so unsatisfying it's really hard for anything to make up for it.

Just one of those things, I suppose.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, but I'll be fair and say that I really only use swords anyway, so my opinion on different move sets, and playstyles is pretty moot. That being said though, as long as you can dodge out of the way (which is quite easy to do, in Dark Souls 3 especially) and get behind the enemy I don't see why you'd be having any more trouble whether it be a spear or a sword. Dark Souls 3 just requires you to make more play-style adjustments to compensate for your shortcomings if that's your issue. But I can definitely see how it would be frustrating after going through The Road of Sacrifices and Irithyll the other day, two areas with relentless enemies.

I will say I was also irritated with the way poise worked in Dark Souls 3 along with how useless Greatswords were, but that hasn't stopped me from enjoying the game. I've heard they fixed those two issues with The Ringed City so I'm excited to be jumping in again and testing all the changes out. For me personally, Dark Souls 3 is also my most replayed game in the series just for the level design alone, I never get tired of it. This is my second playthrough in the last week or so (I restarted because I messed up my build by not getting Havel's ring) and despite me replaying the same areas within a matter of days, I don't enjoy it less or feel any more burnt out because of how well it's crafted.This would actually now be my fourth. For comparison I've played Dark Souls 1, 3 times and the second game once.

Don't get me wrong in my criticisms of the second game, it's one I enjoyed playing, its steel case sits next to my copy of the third game. It got me to revisit Dark Souls in its entirety, but the first game had me discover what I enjoy so much about the series, and while those things exist in spades in the third game, they're non existent in the second outside of a few cool interesting levels like the Iron Kingdom or whatever and Shulva, both of which I think are great and I'm dissapointed Dark Souls 3 didn't have any levels like them. But as a single player kinda guy that's invested in the lore and will only play a specific type of combat in all action games. Dark Souls 2 isn't for me.

I tried going through Dark Souls 3 with the same weapon! It literally was an awful experience, and you really nailed why I didn't enjoy the game.

Every step felt like a chore in comparison. Hell I feel bloodborne did a much better job of balancing player weapons with enemy aggression, so going from that to DS3 was a real shock.

Weapon balance in Dark Souls 3 was pretty bad, I'll agree. I don't really know how it is now since in both my current playthrough's I've only stuck to straight sword. But I can see why you'd dislike the game if you try to go through the whole game with your favorite weapon class and it's shit. I probably would've been in the same boat with Ultra greatswords had I not just said fuck it and picked up a straight sword.
 

RevenWolf

Member
I would argue that the combat is actually the worst in the series. I mean, I'll give it points for flashiness, which it easily has going over previous entries, but flashiness does not a good combat system make.

They royally fucked up the balance between player ability and enemy movesets. It's very, VERY easy to end up with movesets that are simply not designed to deal with enemies that are as fast and aggressive as most of the enemies in this game. I tried to play through the game two-handing a spear and it was one of the most arduous, torturous experiences I have ever voluntarily endured.

This, by the way, is something that 2 nails. People complain about the "floaty" combat but it absolutely gets the balance between player speed and power versus enemy movesets. This is doubly reinforced by poise actually being a functional mechanic and weapons actually being balanced worth a damn.

It's so bad going from 2 to 3 that I have yet to complete a second playthrough of the game. It's the only entry in the series that has done this to me. I literally have no motivation to go through it again. I wish I could agree with regards to its other high points but even those are arguable for me. When the core gameplay loop is so frustrating and so unsatisfying it's really hard for anything to make up for it.

Just one of those things, I suppose.

I tried going through Dark Souls 3 with the same weapon! It literally was an awful experience, and you really nailed why I didn't enjoy the game.

Every step felt like a chore in comparison. Hell I feel bloodborne did a much better job of balancing player weapons with enemy aggression, so going from that to DS3 was a real shock.
 

eot

Banned
Eh

The Pursuer
Smelter Demon
Mirror Knight
The Lost Sinner
Velstadt

All pretty fun for me.

It depends on your definition of "good" though. Look at Dark Souls 1. Who are the good bosses in the base game? Ornstein and Smough, yes, but then who? Quelaag? Sif? Those are fine, but they're certainly not that much better than Mirror Knight.

Dark Souls 2's main problems with bosses are that it has too many bad ones (too many bosses in general in fact) and they almost all lack the visual style and spectacle of other Souls bosses.

Pursuer you just strafe around and he misses you (more or less).

Smelter Demon is buggy as hell (getting stuck in walls), and has fucked hitboxes on some attacks so I'm not going to call it good (it could be good if they fixed it).

Looking Glass Knight is a case of great idea and bad execution. He's too much of a pushover and realistically you'll never see a human invader.

Lost Sinner has garbage tracking charge attacks to make up for a very limited moveset. I know people like this boss, but it's actually my least favourite in DS2. Doing it on SL1 reveals how bad it is IMO.

Velstadt is good, which is why I said "it's like the only good boss". I think Velstadt also rates.

For me though, Darklurker is by far the best. Even if the way you get to that fight is garbage.


Regarding Dark Souls, the mechanically less interesting bosses are saved by the presentation and context. Sif for example is a good boss even if she isn't the most demanding fight. Which ones do I think are good? Bell Gargoyles, Queelag, Sif, O&S, Gwyn, Gwyndolin and Four Kings. I'd take Gaping Dragon and Iron Golem over Lost Sinner or LKG though.
 

tsundoku

Member
It was my first game in the order of like
ten minutes of 1 without dsfix -> 50-60 hours of 2 -> a couple hours of ds1 -> 50-60 hours of sotfs -> 1 when I had a desktop pc to anor londo -> 3 which i tapped out for some other game in ithryll

playing 2 first made the other games seem really easy except for the ocasional bullshit enemy.

I'll agree The level design is "worse" then games like ds3 and especially ds1 because you don't feel like you're exploring a dungeon with real verticality and winding paths and real side areas. However ds2 levels are very goal oriented and feel like you're always fighting your way forward like some kind of 3d beat em up. You're always moving forward and making progress and if you hit a lazily placed ladder or a plentiful bonfire you hit a new checkpoint. Its way more eyes forward then exploring blighttown and its seven hundred sidepaths that made me stress out more that I would miss an entire side area or an important ring or item or equipment or such.

in DS 1 you can lose all of your money running onto an elevator youve used seven times before to go buy pyromancy because you don't have the teleports unlocked yet. The teleport limitations feel way more like a limitation on loadable data on the ps3 then any hard thought out "no, only these bonfires".

Playing to enemy weaknesses by using maces and thrusting swords in ds2 and actually investing heavily in adaptability and endurance both times i played it made the difficulty curve make plenty of sense. When I went back to ds2 after playing ds1 for a few hours i fucked my stats up hard by trying to invest in damage stats and not just using quality weapons of the damage type i needed.

In ds1 I just used the uchi and for a long time a super upgraded dagger.

Still planning to get back to ds3
 

charsace

Member
This is still a great game even though the main team didn't make it. The PvP in this is the one I loved the most. Also like the way dual wield works in this and wish it was in the other souls games.
 
Period. People complain too much imo. Solid entry.

I earned the right to complain a lot when this is what I got after being more hyped than I had ever been for a sequel, standing in line for two hours for a midnight release and taking two days off from work.

Needless to say, I was back at work after one day.
 

ElFly

Member
I think the movement is just slightly different. I got used to it by the time I had reached Majula

You guys need to have your monthly let s hate on dark souls 2 thread with tons of hyperbole. Game is fine
 

Nev

Banned
Criticizing ≠ complaining or hating. I can critizice a lot of things about the other games including Bloodborne and that doesn't mean I hate them.
 
Criticizing ≠ complaining or hating. I can critizice a lot of things about the other games including Bloodborne and that doesn't mean I hate them.
Legit. There's also the fact that we payed for the game and have a right be be dissatisfied or disappointed. This is a forum for discussion, if you can't handle people discussing or expressing things that you don't always agree with then why are you on a forum site.
 
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