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Rumor: Next-Gen AMD SoCs for Xbox and PlayStation Might be in Development

Also I would like to leak some information that I came up in my toilet but I have to share it. Sony is working in a new game that you have to use the dual Sense to play it and Microsoft has one revolutionary game that you have to open first the console to play it.
What kind of no news leaks are these and there people getting excited for something that is like saying the sun will come up tomorrow also...
 

Twinblade

Member
It was hard enough to buy a ps5 and the next xbox, just imagine how much harder it's going to be when scalpers buy up all the stock and charge double. Just imagine the ps5 pro and the next xbox series x pro being like, $600... we could be looking at $1500 on average from Scalpers.
 
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More so than any other Sony console we can predict with 90% sureness what the next PS, either PS6 or Pro, will be.
It will be a 72CU GPU with a frequency of around 2.5ghz giving it around 23tflops of compute.
On top of that it will have the same Int8 and Int4 lower precision abilities as the XSX for ML capabilities.
There will be advanced Ray Tracing tech from AMD and Sony will absolutely adopt Mesh Shaders and VRS in the next one.
There will be a 8 core Zen 4 CPU clocked at 4.2ghz giving it about 2 x the IPC gains over Zen 2.

Depending on how the SSDs take the load off RAM requirements I expect it to arrive with similar GB levels but a much higher bandwidth. There won't be an increase in the SSD speed if the RAM stays the same.

With MS who knows, as they arnt bound by the same requirements to maintain BC as Sony are on the PS.

I doubt the feasibility of a 72 CU at 2.5 Ghz in a mass produced console design, especially when we consider silicon costs as well as yields.

As for PS5 "adapting Mesh Shaders", it already has the hardware for it, and Mesh Shaders are simply an API implementation.

As for what I think the design will be, I don't think we should speculate too much on hardware specifications because it's too early. I do think it's a good guess to say the PS6 will have a heavy focus on upsclaing technology and ray-tracing, Sony have always been known for efficiency over brute force approach and FSR 2.0 and DLSS 2 are very promising tehcnologies and it's likely future consoles will go down that route. As for ray-tracing, I think even Mark Cerny was surprised at how many of the Sony first parties began adopting it when you consider the limited nature of the hardware, but i do see it as something Sony will heavily invest in future consoles, especially when you think about Cerny's comments on "ray-tracing being the third era of graphics"
 

yurinka

Member
They have no chips to produce standard consoles and games that will push the current hardware won't be released soon because new paradigm shift involved due to super fast SSD/IO compared to hard disk drives. So the mid gen push will be these trully next gen games plus the delayed shipments and sales. And well, also the next gen of VR and cloud gaming that is receiving new tech, is going to reach new devices like mobile and tvs and will see their catalog highly pushed by acquisitions and service refurbishing.

I think this gen there won't be mid gen refreshes because won't be needed, so regarding APUs I think they are working directly on the next gen ones. I expect to see next gen consoles debuting in 2027 with a somewhat high end but balancing price and performance 3D stacked 3nm Zen 5 and RDNA 5.

I assume that compared to current gen, next gen will go deeper into removing bottlenecks as seen in PS5 to take even better advantage of future, super fast SSDs, to get even more detailed 3d models and textures and more stuff in screen. To help with this area I think this time they will make a big jump in memory size, jumping into 64GB or who knows if even 128. I also expect SSD prices to go down and increase their size so I expect consoles to have 2TB or who knows if even 4TB sizes.

At the same time I expect them to highly focus in RT as one of their main goals to achieve a big improvement reaching proper and complete RT solution, RT area providing proper natural and realistic real time global illumination, reflections, lighting, shadows, translucency, caustics and 3D audio. Basically CG movie like photorrealism in real time.

And to target resolutions closer to native 4K and FPS closer to 120fps but also using some next gen AI shit to double their resolution and framerate in a lossless way to look great in 8K at 240Hz displays.
 
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assurdum

Member
More so than any other Sony console we can predict with 90% sureness what the next PS, either PS6 or Pro, will be.
It will be a 72CU GPU with a frequency of around 2.5ghz giving it around 23tflops of compute.
On top of that it will have the same Int8 and Int4 lower precision abilities as the XSX for ML capabilities.
There will be advanced Ray Tracing tech from AMD and Sony will absolutely adopt Mesh Shaders and VRS in the next one.
There will be a 8 core Zen 4 CPU clocked at 4.2ghz giving it about 2 x the IPC gains over Zen 2.

Depending on how the SSDs take the load off RAM requirements I expect it to arrive with similar GB levels but a much higher bandwidth. There won't be an increase in the SSD speed if the RAM stays the same.

With MS who knows, as they arnt bound by the same requirements to maintain BC as Sony are on the PS.
Can we stop to sell the MS full RDNA2 features as something of necessary for the next playstation? Please. And mesh shaders highly probably are already there on ps5. Just not named AMD mesh shaders. I invite to look again what Cerny said about the shaders and the triangle capabilities of the ps5 GE. He claimed Ps5 can replaces triangle with shaders via GE and surprise, this is what mesh shaders do to save performance, from my humble limited knowledge
 
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This is most likely for the slim version of the consoles. Need to make the SoC smaller and more efficient so the box can be noticeably smaller as well. I would wager a Summer or Holiday 2023 release of these compact consoles.
 

Kenneth Haight

Gold Member
Inb4 “I can’t even get a PS5 now”

Try harder scrubs. Crazy to think we are talking about next gen when there is still supply constraints but I suppose this train never stops.
 

Pagusas

Elden Member
Inb4 “I can’t even get a PS5 now”

Try harder scrubs. Crazy to think we are talking about next gen when there is still supply constraints but I suppose this train never stops.
yeah, the train can't stop, if Sony/MS/Nintendo/Nvidia/AMD or anyone else takes a break, the competition will lap them. No time to ever celebrate, soon as one product launches you better already be working on the next.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
I know that Nvidia doesnt make custom SoCs, but I wanted them to make these for consoles so freakind bad

DLSS and way better RT performance are so important
Nvidia makes Tegra SOC and has done so for many years. Used in the switch, shield etc.
 

UltimaKilo

Gold Member
OP jumping to conclusions. It's highly doubtful they would sign a contract for "next gen" machines this far out, that goes through a bidding process.

This is more than likely for either a die shrink, and/or a more powerful iteration, not anything else.
 
There will be advanced Ray Tracing tech from AMD and Sony will absolutely adopt Mesh Shaders and VRS in the next
PS5 is really hurting without those two (assuming that it even lacks that to begging with, from what I can tell Sony has their own implementations).

Maybe Sony will adopt DX12 in the future too, that way they can have things the PS5 is missing like Velocity Architecture, DXR, sampler feedback or some other proprietary MS tech.

To do what? How is it used currently in Xbox games?
Why are you asking questions that make sense? If there is some tech that the Xbox allegedly has that the PS5 doesn't we need to jump to the conclusion that Sony made a big mistake, it's irrelevant that so far when actually running games the PS5 doesn't seem to be missing any of that.
 
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assurdum

Member
PS5 is really hurting without those two (assuming that it even lacks that to begging with, from what I can tell Sony has their own implementations).

Maybe Sony will adopt DX12 in the future too, that way they can have things the PS5 is missing like Velocity Architecture, DXR, sampler feedback or some other proprietary MS tech.


Why are you asking questions that make sense? If there is some tech that the Xbox allegedly has that the PS5 doesn't we need to jump to the conclusion that Sony made a big mistake, it's irrelevant that so far when actually running games the PS5 doesn't seem to be missing any of that.
DX12 isnt exactly the best way to push an hardware based to a low level access api as ps5 eh.
 
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CrustyBritches

Gold Member
Sony was already testing the PS5 in 3DMark and it was found by dataminers in Jan. 2019. XSX/XSS were also leaked at that time. That’s a year and 10 months before launch. We would have already heard about a 2023 mid-gen refresh, or will hear about a 2024 refresh in the next 6-7 months by that standard.

I personally think the refreshes will focus on expanded storage(2-4TB), maybe they’ll have slim versions, but imo there won’t be Pro models.
 
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assurdum

Member
If only PS5 had DX12 then, it would be doing even better. Too bad Sony didn't think about having a low level access API... :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Are you serious? There is nothing of superior in a DX12 enviroment especially for a custom hardware. Have you seen how lacking raytracing on xbox compared the sony first parties? Guess the reason. Wish DX12 for the next playstation it's almost as to demand to Apple to have Windows for better performance.
 
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I doubt the feasibility of a 72 CU at 2.5 Ghz in a mass produced console design, especially when we consider silicon costs as well as yields.

As for PS5 "adapting Mesh Shaders", it already has the hardware for it, and Mesh Shaders are simply an API implementation.

As for what I think the design will be, I don't think we should speculate too much on hardware specifications because it's too early. I do think it's a good guess to say the PS6 will have a heavy focus on upsclaing technology and ray-tracing, Sony have always been known for efficiency over brute force approach and FSR 2.0 and DLSS 2 are very promising tehcnologies and it's likely future consoles will go down that route. As for ray-tracing, I think even Mark Cerny was surprised at how many of the Sony first parties began adopting it when you consider the limited nature of the hardware, but i do see it as something Sony will heavily invest in future consoles, especially when you think about Cerny's comments on "ray-tracing being the third era of graphics"
Nah, Mesh Shaders has a different hardware pipeline than Primitive Shaders.
They have a similar job but are dine slightly differently, and that difference is hardware related.
When or if Sony release a new console will have alot to do with when they can put that together and cool it at the right price. They are at the mercy of node shrinks a bit.
 

assurdum

Member
Nah, Mesh Shaders has a different hardware pipeline than Primitive Shaders.
They have a similar job but are dine slightly differently, and that difference is hardware related.
When or if Sony release a new console will have alot to do with when they can put that together and cool it at the right price. They are at the mercy of node shrinks a bit.
The way ps5 GE handle Primitive Shader and triangles it's very similar to the mesh shaders scope though. I wouldnt be surprise if Sony just uses different words for similar tech.
 
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Can we stop to sell the MS full RDNA2 features as something of necessary for the next playstation? Please. And mesh shaders highly probably are already there on ps5. Just not named AMD mesh shaders. I invite to look again what Cerny said about the shaders and the triangle capabilities of the ps5 GE. He claimed Ps5 can replaces triangle with shaders via GE and surprise, this is what mesh shaders do to save performance, from my humble limited knowledge
It's nothing about a Microsoft sell, it's about making sure the PS version of games have the exact same care as PC and Xbox.
You don't need to have DX12 to have Mesh Shaders or VRS on RDNA2. AMD also used Direct RT solely for their Ray Tracing on their RDNA2 cards yet Sony has RT using their own API.
Mesh Shaders and VRS are on Nvidia cards using Vulkan as well as DX12.
With PC being the lead platform on the vast majority of games now, and MS having PC and Xbox in their GDK, Mesh Shaders will be implemented first and then the PS5 version will have Primitive Shaders coded after. It's easier for Sony to match the tech and not have to worry about anyone being lazy with their version of the game.
Mesh Shaders will become the industry norm, so if Sony have the ability to add it and not have to use DX12, which they should be able to, then they will lost likely do it.
 

assurdum

Member
It's nothing about a Microsoft sell, it's about making sure the PS version of games have the exact same care as PC and Xbox.
You don't need to have DX12 to have Mesh Shaders or VRS on RDNA2. AMD also used Direct RT solely for their Ray Tracing on their RDNA2 cards yet Sony has RT using their own API.
Mesh Shaders and VRS are on Nvidia cards using Vulkan as well as DX12.
With PC being the lead platform on the vast majority of games now, and MS having PC and Xbox in their GDK, Mesh Shaders will be implemented first and then the PS5 version will have Primitive Shaders coded after. It's easier for Sony to match the tech and not have to worry about anyone being lazy with their version of the game.
Mesh Shaders will become the industry norm, so if Sony have the ability to add it and not have to use DX12, which they should be able to, then they will lost likely do it.
You should stop to check the tech semantic and look more to the real purpose of such tech. Mesh Shaders are about to save performance in draws triangle with shaders (from what I have understood). GE on ps5 is already capable to replace triangles with shaders (from Cerny words). We are talking of the same water just with a different "surface".
 
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The way ps5 GE handle Primitive Shader and triangles it's very similar to the mesh shaders scope though. I wouldnt be surprise if Sony just uses different words for similar tech.
Yes, they have a similar function but a different pipeline. If it costs nothing to standardize, and their could be benefits in performance, then they would do it, one would think. Well, I can't think of a negative reason not to,. But then again I'm not a GPU technician so I could be missing a big reason as to why it's not feasible.
I just think that it's all about standardisation with GPUs at this point. Even Intel's new GPUs will have Mesh Shader support.
 

assurdum

Member
Yes, they have a similar function but a different pipeline. If it costs nothing to standardize, and their could be benefits in performance, then they would do it, one would think. Well, I can't think of a negative reason not to,. But then again I'm not a GPU technician so I could be missing a big reason as to why it's not feasible.
I just think that it's all about standardisation with GPUs at this point. Even Intel's new GPUs will have Mesh Shader support.
Listen, we already seen dozen of games use MS VRS and still I have to see yet some games put in trouble ps5 because they lacking of VRS just there.
 
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Nah, Mesh Shaders has a different hardware pipeline than Primitive Shaders.
They have a similar job but are dine slightly differently, and that difference is hardware related.
When or if Sony release a new console will have alot to do with when they can put that together and cool it at the right price. They are at the mercy of node shrinks a bit.
Incorrect.

The pipeline is different on a software level, Mesh shaders replace the pipeline while Primitive Shaders modify the old one, the goal is the same however which is to grant graphics access to compute shader functionality.

The hardware necessary for Mesh and Primitive Shaders to function has been in all AMD GPU's since Vega, in the from of NGG fast path (next-generation geometry). This includes RDNA 1 as well but it most likely lacks driver support.

All AMD documentation and white papers support this.
 
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Are you serious? There is nothing of superior in a DX12 enviroment especially for a custom hardware. Have you seen how lacking raytracing on xbox compared the sony first parties? Guess the reason. Wish DX12 for the next playstation it's almost as to demand to Apple to have Windows for better performance.
Now that I'm reading you post, I miss interpreted it. The PS5 API seems to be fine based on how well it is doing comparatively.
 
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assurdum

Member
How do you explain Doom Eternal?
What exactly you have seen in Doom Eternal which show a clear inferiority of the ps5 version? Personally I'm not a big fan of VRS especially when shows worst IQ for higher native resolution. Seems an incredible contradiction IMO.
 
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I can see these rumors pertaining to a mid-gen refresh. I really do believe that this gen will run a bit longer than the typical 7 year span of console generations due to the hiccup that COVID caused. Bring on the pro models so I can get more performance out of these games.
 

Marlenus

Member
Zen4 + RDNA3 for a mid gen refresh would be pretty good.

We know phoenix is going to be an N4 variant using both those IPs so a console with more GPU cores seems entirely doable for holiday 2023.

As for spec it will be 8c16t again, with max boost at the cpu voltage/frequency sweet spot. GPU it will probably be similar to N33 in terms of specs just like PS5 is very close to N23. They might drop the Infinity Cache and rely on more memory bandwidth since I expect there to be a bump to 24GB ram on a 384 bit bus but they could also go with a 192 bit bus and use some infinity cache. They would spend more on the die itself but it would also less power which means a cheaper cooling solution so depends on what is most cost effective. I would not be surprised if clocks are on the vicinity of 3GHz if N33 rumours are to be believed.

Performance wise it would be more than 2x faster than PS5 with a larger uplift in RT. CPU wise it would be a good 60% bump if not more so also pretty substantial.

Would push 4k and RT much easier than the current consoles which would be the likely selling points.

As for what MS will do a Series XL is likely to be pretty similar in spec. AMD have found a way to clock GPUs high without rediculously high power draw so I don't expect MS to double shader count but they can still more than double Tflops. They could go 3d stacking and pretty much use a single N31 GCD (50% more shaders than N33) with cache chips but I am not sure there will be enough capacity to use 3d stacking on a console for a while yet.
 

TheMan

Member
Of course new shit is always in development. Problem is of course that thanks to COVID this generation feels like it’s barely getting started
 

MonarchJT

Banned
The way ps5 GE handle Primitive Shader and triangles it's very similar to the mesh shaders scope though. I wouldnt be surprise if Sony just uses different words for similar tech.
give the paper link or more precise information or pls stop pushing uninformed personal opinion
 
Listen, we already seen dozen of games use MS VRS and still I have to see yet some games put in trouble ps5 because they lacking of VRS just there.
We have seen VRS 1.0, but the advances with VRS 2.0 are well worth it. As this generation moves forward and we see more demanding games that really start to tap out the CPU and GPU further then VRS and other efficiency tools will become far more important. Not sure why you wouldn't want a console to have it. It's just another option for developers to use if they need it.
 
Incorrect.

The pipeline is different on a software level, Mesh shaders replace the pipeline while Primitive Shaders modify the old one, the goal is the same however which is to grant graphics access to compute shader functionality.

The hardware necessary for Mesh and Primitive Shaders to function has been in all AMD GPU's since Vega, in the from of NGG fast path (next-generation geometry). This includes RDNA 1 as well but it most likely lacks driver support.

All AMD documentation and white papers support this.
It's not just an API or "MS trademark" thing. There is a different hardware with it.
You don't have to believe it if you don't want.
Primitive Shaders and Mesh Shaders do a similar task, yes, but it's not an API thing.
 
Incorrect.

The pipeline is different on a software level, Mesh shaders replace the pipeline while Primitive Shaders modify the old one, the goal is the same however which is to grant graphics access to compute shader functionality.

The hardware necessary for Mesh and Primitive Shaders to function has been in all AMD GPU's since Vega, in the from of NGG fast path (next-generation geometry). This includes RDNA 1 as well but it most likely lacks driver support.

All AMD documentation and white papers support this.
The best write up I have seen on Primitive vs Mesh shaders is here.

Have a read. Mesh Shaders are more refined and have more programmability.
 
It's not just an API or "MS trademark" thing. There is a different hardware with it.
You don't have to believe it if you don't want.
Primitive Shaders and Mesh Shaders do a similar task, yes, but it's not an API thing.
The best write up I have seen on Primitive vs Mesh shaders is here.

Have a read. Mesh Shaders are more refined and have more programmability.

The link you have shared demonstrates nothing which contradicts my original post or information, it's just a deep dive on how Primitive Shaders function and is based on information which is now outdated.

Both Primitive and Mesh Shaders are set up in the GPU's geometry engine and command processors, the hardware changes made to these components was done in AMD's Vega architecture and up until and including RDNA 2 there have been absolutely zero changes made to either of these components according to AMD documentation.

Here's a link to AMD's Vega white paper and on page 6 it highlights the "NGG fast path" (Next Generation Geometry). Both RDNA 1 and RDNA 2 documentation show there was zero changes made to the hardware to accommodate Mesh Shaders.

In fact all AMD RDNA 2 GPU's are converting Mesh Shaders into Primitive Shaders in code, this includes the Series X/S as well as the discrete GPU's.

It has nothing to do with what I "believe" lol it's literally on paper if you know where to look.

LeviathanGamer2 has done an excellent job on covering this topic.

 
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If Sony decide to release a mid-gen pro version of the ps5 it would likely implement a similar approach to that of the ps4 pro. The core architecture will stay the same with the gpu being doubled via butterfly duplication of gpu cu's. Cooling would no doubt be a challenge. When in ps5 pro mode it may not be able to run at full gpu clocks due to thermal limitations. This may be offset if the new soc utilises a smaller node i.e. 5nm which would make sense. If a smaller node is used the cpu may also see slightly increased clocks. That is the most likely scenario unless we are talking full ps6 tier device.

Microsoft have more flexibility due to not relying on hardware for backwards compatibility like Sony. If there will be a mid gen refresh of the Series X they can literally do anything. Anything at all as all their software runs via virtualisation.

One thing I am looking forward to is the implementation of chiplets in the true next generation devices. This may offer something very interesting. A shift away from monolithic may provide a massive increment to gpu power. With next generation AMD RDNA3 gpu rumoured to be utilising chiplets and existing AMD cpu utilising them for years already this seems likely. Maybe we will see custom developed co-processors from Microsoft/Sony added to the package as chiplets. May allow for more interesting differences going forward. Perhaps even the inclusion of 3D cache on the cpu side would be cool. Exciting stuff.
 
3nm chips wont be available until 2027 realistically, which is what is required for a mid-gen refresh.

At that point...why not a new console? I don't think we'll be getting massive updates going forward. Let's go back to shorter generations with full BC, cross-gen stuff is going to be a thing anyhow for a very long time.
 
I wish to see what would happen if both Xbox and PS had the exact same SoC l, but one had 100more mhz on its CPU and the other 50 more on its GPU 🤣
 
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