RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
They should do an interactive movie style game ala Heavy Rain or The Walking Dead.
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Rumour | Ninja Theory to Quit Console Development? [Up: Nope]
- Thread starter Floex
- Start date
They should do an interactive movie style game ala Heavy Rain or The Walking Dead.
A good part, yes, but this is thread when it was only a rumor they were going to do the next DMC game:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392697
People were already hating on NT before anything from DmC was shown, and they didn't even know NT and Capcom were going to change the franchise for some senseless goal.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Yeah, this has been my only problem with Ninja Theory. Their attitude and arrogance is simply off-putting.
I liked Heavenly Sword a lot, despite it's flaws, and have defended it here quite a bit. I'd still love to see a sequel that better realizes the awesome potential that was there, and if NT were able to do it and get it right, I'd have no problem. I also liked Enslaved a bit. I actually agreed whole-heartedly that DmC needed a complete reboot, and thought NT did a pretty good job, but knew that it was doomed because many of the hardcore fans of that series by-and-large just want to press the nostalgia button over and over and eat up that tired, cheesy shit like some sort of virtual Skinnerbox.
But having said that...dang, this studio makes itself hard to like whenever they talk to the media or fans. I think the reactions in this thread reflect that to a degree, but some people are obviously taking it over-the-top.
BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!
Member
southerncross
Member
This is a part of DmC debate I can't understand.
DmC barely changed anything. There is no innovation. Combat is pretty similar (but lacks some advanced mechanics earlier games had + 30fps), level designers swapped painfully simple corridors from DMC4 for floating platforms, plot is still cringeworthy (and sadly, cutscenes lack fun choreography). Still, it can't be denied they aimed to make DMC3 that is more approachable to casual crowd.
The game is more similar to earlier installments in series than many of fans and detractors would like to admit.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
I am offended I was not included. I quoted Tool for gawd'shake.
Anyway, TN committed hubris and were treated accordingly.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Exactly.
"Buh buh buh WHITE HAIR!" and the like is all you'll see. It's what happens when you try to sell outside NT's traditional wheelhouse of "servicable action, exemplary cutscenes" crowd: articulate backlash. Neither they nor their die-hard fans have an answer other than sputtering rage.
TheSpoiler
Member
Well let's see.
The gameplay, the biggest part of the series, has been neutered and all the cool stuff that you could discover (ala Trickstyle contest and the ability to beat the game with pretty much any set up if you were good enough for that). It included color-coded enemies that could only be killed with certain weapons, placing a limit on your creative combos when those assholes showed up.
There is a hell of a lot more platforming in DmC, where the majority of some levels are dedicated to jumping and a bit of fighting.
The bosses aren't about doing cool shit and challenge but rather hitting the glowing weakspot. You can down the second to last boss with a charged move!
Characters, of course, got a personality change.
I could go on, but on gameplay alone the game is so different they could have named it something else and it still wouldn't resemble DMC.
It's ignorant to assume that every person that didn't like DmC just didn't like the hair. In fact, there are plenty of people in the previous pages here and everywhere else that have put of calm arguments instead of foaming at the mouth. Generalizations like this does not add to the discussion, on either side of opinions.
southerncross
Member
I meant that all of the features in DmC can be traced back to earlier DMC games. The only truly radical "innovation" is the new direction Antoniades' plot took.
Just to note, I had problems with all three "recent" Devil May Cry releases, but I think DmC was the weakest (mostly due to lack of fun bosses).
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Why are you telling ME this? Quotation marks mean...
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
HAHA
NullPointer
Member
I really wish they did, because its a damn great game that gets maligned because of that name.
It certainly wouldn't be the only game with that problem, but I'm sure I've ever seen anything like the vitriol that's been heaped on DmC and NT.
I love a good name and shame!
Triggerhappytel
Member
But that's nothing to do with NT themselves, so why the hate directed their way?! So they made a game a lot of people don't like, they rebooted a character very badly to try and make him cool and edgy (I've seen enough footage to know new Dante's a cock), and yet the way some people act towards them is just unbelievably petty and spiteful. Clearly from this topic merely based on crossed wires, a lot of Gaffers would prefer they leave the console industry than make any more games. You don't find that pathetic?
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I have.
I played the demo of Enslaved.
and noticed it was kind of an uncharted clone that narrowed your options even more than Uncharted.(for platforming sections the game literally does not recognize any "incorrect" inputs even when they're completely safe. If you try to jump off the top of a pole over land the game won't respond in anyway. The only option it recognizes is climbing down.)
and I mean people were making fun of NT for the input delay in Heavenly Sword waaaaaay before DmC was even an idea in someone's head.
DmC was pretty much their best playing game by default, and reading some of Itsuno's interviews I'm pretty sure that was mostly due to the Capcom Japan influence.
I'm not saying they deserve to go out of business, but Ninja Theory has a reputation for games with poor performance and play mechanics before even touching Devil May Cry. That's why people were so confused when they heard that out of all the studios out there, Ninja Theory was chosen to work on it. The studio known for poorly performing games and derivative game design chosen to develop next game in a series known for stressing performance and responsiveness above all else and has pretty much been the trend setter for its genre since it CREATED IT
I am too but that doesn't make their games before it any better
Well I can't speak for anyone else but personally I don't really like them because I found all their games to be either mediocre (DmC) or just plain bad. I certainly won't jump in joy if they quit console development, I'd just shrug. I'll certainly be happy if they don't touch Devil May Cry ever again though. People can call DMC4 bad if they want but it doesn't change that it certainly has one of the best combat system ever and DmC was a pretty damn big step down.
Edit:
Damn truth bombs being dropped by GuardianE. I never got why people said the DMC franchise was dying since it's just obviously wrong.
Right because DMC never ever had a bad game before Ninja Theory got a hold of it.... oh
To all the people saying "DMC was dying already, blah blah. It was never that good and I'm a misinformed/ignorant moron", see below:
To the people saying "I'm an idiot. DMC isn't even that big of a franchise in Capcom's portfolio overall and they were gonna abandon it anyway." see below:
Sure, praise DmC all you want, but don't bash the classic series when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
And you'd be 100% correct. Capcom had to teach Ninja Theory how hit detection, strikes, and combat flow worked. They had to teach them enemy and boss design. They basically had to teach them how to make a game:
http://www.polygon.com/2013/1/30/39...-long-distance-romance-with-ninja-theory-that
Capcom is to blame as well. There's no question there. You'll also notice that Capcom is a laughing stock and hate magnet on GAF unless you deliberately ignore it. "Fuck Capcpcom" is a pretty common sentiment here.
Pretty much every single "wall of shame" on GAF is filled with contradictory posts and obvious jokes because of the compiler's over-eagerness to have a long list, even if it's not legitimate or true. Congrats on keeping up that tradition. If you're going to make a wall of shame, at least use some discretion and common sense.
Yep, it always comes full circle. It's ironic that the Ninja Theory fanbase always ends up being the more small-minded, generalizing, uninformed, and dismissive group, considering those are their main claims against DMC fans.
Naturally, and this is a moot point, I don't actually think people at Ninja Theory should lose their jobs (except maybe Tameem). I'm not a fan, and I probably never will be, but they do have a small fanbase and they should continue to make games for that fanbase. As long as they stick to their own IPs, they should make whatever they want. At the same time, DMC fans have every right to shit on a game that they don't like, and not purchase a game they never asked for.
To the people saying "I'm an idiot. DMC isn't even that big of a franchise in Capcom's portfolio overall and they were gonna abandon it anyway." see below:
DMC has a higher sales per title average than every franchise they make with the exception of Monster Hunter.
Sure, praise DmC all you want, but don't bash the classic series when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
And you'd be 100% correct. Capcom had to teach Ninja Theory how hit detection, strikes, and combat flow worked. They had to teach them enemy and boss design. They basically had to teach them how to make a game:
http://www.polygon.com/2013/1/30/39...-long-distance-romance-with-ninja-theory-that
Capcom is to blame as well. There's no question there. You'll also notice that Capcom is a laughing stock and hate magnet on GAF unless you deliberately ignore it. "Fuck Capcpcom" is a pretty common sentiment here.
Pretty much every single "wall of shame" on GAF is filled with contradictory posts and obvious jokes because of the compiler's over-eagerness to have a long list, even if it's not legitimate or true. Congrats on keeping up that tradition. If you're going to make a wall of shame, at least use some discretion and common sense.
Yep, it always comes full circle. It's ironic that the Ninja Theory fanbase always ends up being the more small-minded, generalizing, uninformed, and dismissive group, considering those are their main claims against DMC fans.
Naturally, and this is a moot point, I don't actually think people at Ninja Theory should lose their jobs (except maybe Tameem). I'm not a fan, and I probably never will be, but they do have a small fanbase and they should continue to make games for that fanbase. As long as they stick to their own IPs, they should make whatever they want. At the same time, DMC fans have every right to shit on a game that they don't like, and not purchase a game they never asked for.
Great post. Totally agree.
It's nice to hear it was just a rumor. Like you said, I hope they can keep making stuff for their fans.
So much truth right here.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
I award this post a SSStylish, and a real SSStylish not one of those shitty SSStylish from DmC that you get for doing absolutely nothing.
Capcom realizes that the IP isn't strong enough to reinvent/milk a ton, unlike their other IPs. Simple as that. It's also a fundamentally harder series to milk due to the character and narrative driven nature of the very in depth finely tuned gameplay necessitating long and involved development cycle (including tons of new art assets and the like) that then can't be easily 'iterated' on by simply adding new fighters like a fighting game can. DMC4 got an unnaturally high boost from being multiplatform and the first HD title in the series (after a long wait), but had a lot of problems and was received so-so by the fanbase. You can bring up review scores but those rarely tell the whole story, just look at how Killzone 2 reviewed and then look at the huge backlash over the controls and MP experience effectively kneecapped the series, Killzone 3 certainly didn't help either.
DMC was declining, not to say that DmC did better than another DMC5 would have but you have a very skewed perspective on the IP. The reason that the per iteration sales are so high is exactly because, outside of DMC3: Special Edition, they have generally stuck with only mainline entries in the series, and the entries per lifespan of the IP have been spread out (ish).
And frankly given the talent exodus that has happened over the years I seriously doubt they'd be capable of reinvigorating the franchise on their own merit. Saying that people are morons only highlights your own potentially narrow understanding of why exactly the franchise is where it is today and why it also happens to have those sales per installment. Higher isn't always better. Especially when you can't sell low cost expansion packs that sell decently and maximize profits.
Would Capcom have abandoned DMC without DmC being in the works? Probably for the time being as their studios had been betting big on large scale development of a few IPS (Dragons Dogma, RE6). The whole reason that they outsourced DMC was exactly because they did not have the will/rational to commit the necessary resources to it themselves. In fact if they aren't going to get Ninja Theory to make DmC2, I bet there's a higher chance that they try to go to platinum for DMC5, or failing that let it sit dormant, than develop anything themselves. Not that inflating development costs and scope so much on fewer titles is necessarily a good thing or has panned out for them.
Jawmuncher
Member
That's definitely my feelings towards all this as well. You're definitely kidding yourself if you think DMC wasn't on the chopping block at some point. Capcom Franchises have been killed for less. It really all does come down to if we are going to get anything after DmC. My whole thing is I understand the hate for the game and for the DMC fans it's all understandable. But the comment's talking of people being glad that people could potentially be losing jobs was what upset me. Everyone has their right to dismiss a game they dislike nor wanted, but that sort of talk was a bit to much. Especially in an industry where more and more people are becoming unemployed.
Steverulez
Member
Slightly interesting but doesn't necessarily mean much, Supererogatory posted these tweets last night:
Last bit certainly throws it off but an interesting follow anyway based on the Insomniac comments. Kung-Fu-Chaos 2 anyone?
Last bit certainly throws it off but an interesting follow anyway based on the Insomniac comments. Kung-Fu-Chaos 2 anyone?
This post in gif form.
nelsonroyale
Member
Good news I suppose. Well, I am looking forward to what they show for next gen.
I legit bookmarked this post.
You can't just say 'no it wasn't', I played 3 and 4, I was there! I'm attempting to extrapolate the meaning behind numbers based on variables and you're content to play the Count on Sesame Street? You can't just ignore that other series showed similar boosts from the same combination of events. Do you honestly want to argue that being Mutliplatform for the first time and being the first HD entry didn't inflate sales? These aren't excuses, they're called reasons. The franchise got a boost from the environment surrounding 4, but the general consensus on the state of the IP wasn't all that rosy, that's entirely why Capcom started looking for ways to change it up.
Also it's reductive to judge the strength of an IP off of sales alone since usually they sell somewhat based on the strength of the predecessor and many other factors (like availability), look at the transition from MGS1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 (with 4 being hurt by the platform but also helped by being the HD entry). 3 sold a heck of a lot less than 2 despite being judged as perhaps the best in the entire series by a lot of fans.
People have some serious rose tinted glasses on for DMC4 simply because DmC exists.
You make fine points. None of them refute my assertions and none of them are grounded in any data.
You're right to an extent. It's not a cut and dry formula. I realize that the value of a franchise is far more complicated than the numbers above, but at least I've provided numbers. You might take offense to my aggressive tone, but I'm frankly sick of seeing the same baseless arguments in these threads that don't have an ounce of evidence as back-up. So, if I seem slightly annoyed, it's because I am. Most of us have been down this road a lot. Pretty much since the announcement of DmC. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
I used review scores because that's what the Ninja Theory fanbase tends to use when justifying DmC and lambasting the DMC fanbase for their love of the classic series. I simply returned the favor.
Most of what you're saying is based on assumptions of Capcom's internal greenlighting process. They might be true. They might not be. Capcom has a reputation (for the latter half of this gen) of making randomly horrible anti-consumer decisions, but their one general consistency is that they make decisions with money in mind at the risk of damage to their credibility. Cash. Numbers. I'm not necessarily saying that DMC is a golden-egg laying goose for Capcom, but the numbers indicate a successful franchise overall in their portfolio. I didn't embellish or project. I simply stated facts. These are numbers that Capcom shows their investors as barometers of success.
I respectfully disagree with your argument that the DMC4's sales were solely due to 1) the multiplatform release and 2) it being the first HD DMC title. Being released that early in the console cycle is a double-edged sword. While you have the advantage of being in a market with limited competition, you're also working with the smallest consumer base for sales. As far as it being a multiplatform release, if you halve DMC4's sales you'd have the total shipped units for DmC, which also enjoyed a multiplatform release (as well as a day-one PC release) on a well-established set of consoles in a month devoid of any heavy-hitting competition. You could try to attribute this to console fatigue or lapsing interest in the genre, but that's also conjecture.
As for your "iteration" argument, I think DMC3:SE sales make it clear that you can add additional content to these games (as long as the base game is good) and people will buy them, either as DLC or as a compiled version. In fact, this is one of the rare instances where they adopted this strategy for something other than a fighting game. It's something that Capcom has failed to actively and wholly engage this generation for DMC, which is odd considering how ripe DMC4 was for expansions/DLC. I don't think DMC is as much an ill fit for the expansion and add-on formula as you're making it out to be, and we have at least one historical instance where it worked. There's not a more current precedent simply because they didn't try.
As for a lack of talent, the DMC3 team is still there, as far as I know. Itsuno is still there. They have a group capable of making a solid entry. They simply didn't because of Inafune's mass Westernization outsourcing initiative... which backfired more than it succeeded. Dark Void. Bionic Commando. Lost Planet 3. Remember Me. Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City. Spyborgs.
We already know that both Itsuno and Eshiro are open to making a DMC5. It's the suits upstairs that are currently holding the franchise hostage.
Eshiro:
Itsuno:
At least it's something they want to do.
You're making leaps of logic, and using your own value judgments for DMC4. You're putting yourself in Capcom's shoes and making assumptions without any evidence.
The "consensus"? Who is this consensus? You? Because according to Metacritic, DMC4 received only one aggregate point lower than DmC. I'm not going to take whatever opinions you spout as gospel. And I'd be a horse's ass if I took whatever PR speak Capcom used in justifying its corporate positions as truth. DMC4 was absolutely a weaker overall title than 3. I don't think most people came out of that saying, "we need a reboot". This revisionist history is bullshit.
Is my numerical analysis reductionist? Sure. Because neither you or I have all the facts involved, but at least my extrapolations are rooted in something substantive. Any argument you make outside of using collective data is simply your opinion and nothing more.
Avatar quote.
We know that every franchise gets a good hard look, but DMC was really no more in danger of getting axed than Sengoku Basara, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, or Ace Attorney.
The brand has strength.
You're right to an extent. It's not a cut and dry formula. I realize that the value of a franchise is far more complicated than the numbers above, but at least I've provided numbers. You might take offense to my aggressive tone, but I'm frankly sick of seeing the same baseless arguments in these threads that don't have an ounce of evidence as back-up. So, if I seem slightly annoyed, it's because I am. Most of us have been down this road a lot. Pretty much since the announcement of DmC. You're not telling me anything I don't already know.
I used review scores because that's what the Ninja Theory fanbase tends to use when justifying DmC and lambasting the DMC fanbase for their love of the classic series. I simply returned the favor.
Most of what you're saying is based on assumptions of Capcom's internal greenlighting process. They might be true. They might not be. Capcom has a reputation (for the latter half of this gen) of making randomly horrible anti-consumer decisions, but their one general consistency is that they make decisions with money in mind at the risk of damage to their credibility. Cash. Numbers. I'm not necessarily saying that DMC is a golden-egg laying goose for Capcom, but the numbers indicate a successful franchise overall in their portfolio. I didn't embellish or project. I simply stated facts. These are numbers that Capcom shows their investors as barometers of success.
I respectfully disagree with your argument that the DMC4's sales were solely due to 1) the multiplatform release and 2) it being the first HD DMC title. Being released that early in the console cycle is a double-edged sword. While you have the advantage of being in a market with limited competition, you're also working with the smallest consumer base for sales. As far as it being a multiplatform release, if you halve DMC4's sales you'd have the total shipped units for DmC, which also enjoyed a multiplatform release (as well as a day-one PC release) on a well-established set of consoles in a month devoid of any heavy-hitting competition. You could try to attribute this to console fatigue or lapsing interest in the genre, but that's also conjecture.
As for your "iteration" argument, I think DMC3:SE sales make it clear that you can add additional content to these games (as long as the base game is good) and people will buy them, either as DLC or as a compiled version. In fact, this is one of the rare instances where they adopted this strategy for something other than a fighting game. It's something that Capcom has failed to actively and wholly engage this generation for DMC, which is odd considering how ripe DMC4 was for expansions/DLC. I don't think DMC is as much an ill fit for the expansion and add-on formula as you're making it out to be, and we have at least one historical instance where it worked. There's not a more current precedent simply because they didn't try.
As for a lack of talent, the DMC3 team is still there, as far as I know. Itsuno is still there. They have a group capable of making a solid entry. They simply didn't because of Inafune's mass Westernization outsourcing initiative... which backfired more than it succeeded. Dark Void. Bionic Commando. Lost Planet 3. Remember Me. Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City. Spyborgs.
We already know that both Itsuno and Eshiro are open to making a DMC5. It's the suits upstairs that are currently holding the franchise hostage.
Eshiro:
Itsuno:
At least it's something they want to do.
You're making leaps of logic, and using your own value judgments for DMC4. You're putting yourself in Capcom's shoes and making assumptions without any evidence.
The "consensus"? Who is this consensus? You? Because according to Metacritic, DMC4 received only one aggregate point lower than DmC. I'm not going to take whatever opinions you spout as gospel. And I'd be a horse's ass if I took whatever PR speak Capcom used in justifying its corporate positions as truth. DMC4 was absolutely a weaker overall title than 3. I don't think most people came out of that saying, "we need a reboot". This revisionist history is bullshit.
Is my numerical analysis reductionist? Sure. Because neither you or I have all the facts involved, but at least my extrapolations are rooted in something substantive. Any argument you make outside of using collective data is simply your opinion and nothing more.
Avatar quote.
We know that every franchise gets a good hard look, but DMC was really no more in danger of getting axed than Sengoku Basara, Dead Rising, Lost Planet, or Ace Attorney.
The brand has strength.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I stand by everything I said. Ninja theory has no place in Modern AAA action games. If they start to make some Heavy rain/Beyond type games then more power to them. But they are shit at gameplay and as a gameplay person, nothing is lost if they disappear tomorrow.
Most of the arguments against DMC4 and in favor of a reboot stem from the thinking that Capcom only makes wise decisions regarding their IPs. The only way you can defend the existence of DmC is if you admit that Capcom was right in rebooting it.
News flash.... Capcom is more than capable of making dumb decisions. There was no precedent for rebooting the series. Which game series got rebooted when the previous game was its highest seller? No series that I know of except DMC. So all these examples of Capcom killing MM,, Onimusha, DC, VJ are terrible because DMC followed a clear up tick in sales compared to those games which were on the decline.
People didn't like DMC4 and then asked for a reboot? That's not what happened when the game came out. People can claim rose tinted glasses all they want, the issues with DMC4 were not problems that needed a reboot to fix.
News flash.... Capcom is more than capable of making dumb decisions. There was no precedent for rebooting the series. Which game series got rebooted when the previous game was its highest seller? No series that I know of except DMC. So all these examples of Capcom killing MM,, Onimusha, DC, VJ are terrible because DMC followed a clear up tick in sales compared to those games which were on the decline.
People didn't like DMC4 and then asked for a reboot? That's not what happened when the game came out. People can claim rose tinted glasses all they want, the issues with DMC4 were not problems that needed a reboot to fix.
More than anything, DMC 4 needed the main campaign to be only Nero and then Dante's missions should have been an unlockable campaign for finishing the game, but you would have had a fully featured campaign instead of DMC 3's Vergil story mode.
And some fucking DLC. How can this not be obvious to Capcpom? People were begging them for extra characters in Bloody Palace.
At some point you wonder what these people are thinking.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Thats a load of f'ing hyberbole. If you played it when it launched you wouldn't be saying this. The game now has aged considerably compared with todays modern gems. I think alot of you say this and never played or maybe even put in a full playthrough. There is a hate for this game which is not warranted.
If NT HS launched on 360 first back then would the hate be the same? Lets think about that for a moment.
How is adding Vergil to Bloody Palace as paid DLC unrealistic? Unrealistic would be asking for it to be free.
And this is the same company that charges people for palette swaps in Third Strike, so they ain't about to release Vergil Bloody Palace DLC for free either.
It's not like they have to create an entirely new character to begin with. Vergil was playable in DMC 3.
That's the root of the entire discussion. The viability of priced expansion, level, and character DLC is DMC is something that isn't fully explored and something that can't just be shrugged off.
Of course, the success is heavily based on the current install base, which for DmC is pretty small. For DMC4, on the other hand, Capcom should've explored opportunities. These aren't unrealistic demands. Shit, they aren't even demands. They're potentially lucrative suggestions.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Well first off I think it's a little weird to criticize capcom in hindsight without considering the time frame in which DMC4 was released, which was a pre-SF4 Capcom. Vanilla SF4 didn't even have the hooks in place to where content updates could be digitally delivered like Super. so it seems weird to expect them to be able to do something like that for DMC4. Esepcially so many years after release.
and while there's no precedent for DMC, there is a precedent for action games. Like the Sam DLC which was mostly composed of recycled assets and a boss character made playable with far less animations and actions than Raiden is capable of. This was also the most expensive DLC pack for the game at 10 dollars, and was planned and budgeted for prior to release.
Edit: oh there is a precedent for it in DMC with the DmC Vergil DLC. Unfortunately I don't know much about how that content turned out as I haven't played DmC, but again it seems like it was planned for ahead of time and reused alot of assets that already existed in the main game.(Vergil was a Boss in the main game)