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Sakurai discusses George Lucas and fan criticism
- Thread starter Cerium
- Start date
MrCunningham
Member
I'm pretty sure he wasn't able to direct or write those films because he had some turmoil with both the Hollywood directors guild and the writers guild. Yeah he didn't write or direct Empire or Jedi, but he was still heavily involved behind the scenes and did heavily dictate the story to the screenwriters that he did bring in to the project.
higgsboson1997
Member
There are a lot of people saying things in the opposite direction too such as calling Brawl and Smash 4 trash.
I hate the vitriol from fans of different games in the Smash franchise. I like them all (though 4 is definitely the best).
I love smash 4 for what it is. It's not anywhere close to what Melee is for me, and I've dropped it to go back to Melee, but I really enjoyed it for several months.
I really just don't understand why dash dancing was removed. The ability to dash back and forth without stopping allows you to feel out your opponent, and it's not even a difficult input at all. It's the one mechanic which clearly is a stupid removal. I understand things like multishining, wavedashing, waveshine, aerial interrupts, l cancelling, and hax-dashing are incredibly frightening for beginners, but the removal of dash dancing ruins the flow of the whole game for me and its a bummer.
PUT DASH DASHING BACK IN PLEASE GOD.
I really just don't understand why dash dancing was removed. The ability to dash back and forth without stopping allows you to feel out your opponent, and it's not even a difficult input at all. It's the one mechanic which clearly is a stupid removal. I understand things like multishining, wavedashing, waveshine, aerial interrupts, l cancelling, and hax-dashing are incredibly frightening for beginners, but the removal of dash dancing ruins the flow of the whole game for me and its a bummer.
PUT DASH DASHING BACK IN PLEASE GOD.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
Well then. I hadn't followed the official Smash 4 OTs, but after reading through this thread I can see what Sakurai is getting at. I had no idea how weirdly bitter and inbred the opinions of Melee purists have gotten. Thought it was mostly a reaction to the floatiness and tripping of Brawl (which although not game breaking I frankly dudn't care for either), but I didn't know those pitchforks and torches had also encircled Smash 4, which I thought was regarded as robust and well balanced in its own right.
It's hilariously sad that people would be so wound up they would draw a parallel between the quality of the OG Trilogy vs. Prequels and 64/Melee vs. Brawl/4. Give me a fucking break. Even Brawl for some of its more lamentable Wii era "casual" choices is still a fine game that fits the overall series. It's an insult to legitimately great designers to compare it to the Star Wars prequels, which are awful both as the successors to the originals and just plain horrible bloated insular wastes of budget and talent on the whole.
Sorry competitive Smash fanatics, even the worst game in the series is still a great video game. It may have been disappointing for someone seeking the layers of nuance it took years for people to figure out with Melee, but it's still a reflection of consummate craftsmanship. No other developer can or has even come close to replicating Smash at its worst. Sci-Fi movies that tap dance around the Star Wars prequels are a dime a dozen, unless we're talking solely about number of effects shots. The outright dismissiveness towards the amount of technical and creative victories in all the Smash games because of a hyper focus on a handful of underlying techniques only diehards will ever be aware of is embarrassing.
It's hilariously sad that people would be so wound up they would draw a parallel between the quality of the OG Trilogy vs. Prequels and 64/Melee vs. Brawl/4. Give me a fucking break. Even Brawl for some of its more lamentable Wii era "casual" choices is still a fine game that fits the overall series. It's an insult to legitimately great designers to compare it to the Star Wars prequels, which are awful both as the successors to the originals and just plain horrible bloated insular wastes of budget and talent on the whole.
Sorry competitive Smash fanatics, even the worst game in the series is still a great video game. It may have been disappointing for someone seeking the layers of nuance it took years for people to figure out with Melee, but it's still a reflection of consummate craftsmanship. No other developer can or has even come close to replicating Smash at its worst. Sci-Fi movies that tap dance around the Star Wars prequels are a dime a dozen, unless we're talking solely about number of effects shots. The outright dismissiveness towards the amount of technical and creative victories in all the Smash games because of a hyper focus on a handful of underlying techniques only diehards will ever be aware of is embarrassing.
I will never understand a man's ignorance to take something that already works (so much that people are still playing it after 13 years) and build upon it. Copy and paste, throw in new characters, and balance the roster.
I actively play Sm4sh for 8-player and the new characters, but it's a slower, more defensive game like Brawl. It will die upon the arrival of the new game while Melee continues to be played by thousands of people.
I actively play Sm4sh for 8-player and the new characters, but it's a slower, more defensive game like Brawl. It will die upon the arrival of the new game while Melee continues to be played by thousands of people.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It gimps large, slow characters.
You imply the same people will play this theoretical "build upon it" game. And I love that this is "ignorant".
Vermillion
Banned
Find a post that says that in this thread.
If the next Smash continues to play like Smash 4 and built upon that, people from Smash 4 will move to Smash 5, just like how people who play Street Fighter have something to move on to cause it builds upon the previous game.
That was addressing some Melee fans like the sentence before it.
We play Project M.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
We play Project M.
You misread my point then, amazing.
Nanashrew got the point I was stating.
FloweryMarston
Member
LMAO there's people that actually believe this? Is this what you guys tell yourself to make yourself feel better for loving a movie George Lucas made?
He may not have direct it, but there's no way he gave free reign of his baby to Irvin Keshner. He probably had to completely adhere to Lucas's demands.
A casual will play the new game because it's new. A hardcore will play the new game if it has the speed and depth to make it as worthwhile as the other one.
What's wrong with this again?
Edit: Also, peeps should try to keep the Star Wars talk elsewhere unless it's about the games.
What's wrong with this again?
Edit: Also, peeps should try to keep the Star Wars talk elsewhere unless it's about the games.
People believe it because that's literally all that is ever talked about with the behind the scenes information that we know. Lucas barely had a hand in Empire (He did end up directing and editing a few things himself, apparently, only after the movie was taking longer than expected. Before that point he was happy to leave the movie in the hands of Kershner and Kurtz-his day to day producer. And on all accounts his contributions lead to disastrous results that ended up delaying the movie even more and worsening his relationships with Kershner, Kurtz and his then wife Marcia) or Jedi. And even A New Hope was heavily edited from his original "intent".
To be fair to Lucas, he did fund Empire largely out of his own pocket and did campaign for Frank Oz to get a Best Supporting Actor nomination. He also protected Kershner from the Writer's and Director's guild who tried to pull Empire from release, failed, and then fined the hell out of Lucas and Kershner all because they insisted that the credits be at the start rather than the end because they felt Star Wars would never be successful or some nonsense.
And we know for a fact that Lucas had absolute control over the prequels.
put two and two together...
MegaManTrigger
Banned
On one hand, people need to realize that Sakurai created Smash Bros. with the idea that its simplicity would be the main tenet of the game and attract beginners. While its latent features would be taken advantage of by people who learned about the game in greater depth, once they continued to play it more often and consistently. Certain features weren't going to make it past Melee because of how much it disadvantages the beginner. Smash was never a traditional fighting game, and even Sakurai pondered the issues of traditional fighting games in terms of business and appeal.
On the other hand, it's not unheard of to continually play old games to revisit the competitive side of things. People still play MVC2 for its hilarious bugs (I still do in spite of UMVC3's faster gameplay), people still play Smash 64/Melee for the depth that it provides, and so on. Even if the features you like never made it to Smash Brawl/4/etc., that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy Melee. The game's still there for you to play.
On the other hand, it's not unheard of to continually play old games to revisit the competitive side of things. People still play MVC2 for its hilarious bugs (I still do in spite of UMVC3's faster gameplay), people still play Smash 64/Melee for the depth that it provides, and so on. Even if the features you like never made it to Smash Brawl/4/etc., that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy Melee. The game's still there for you to play.
I respect Sakurai experimenting with new things in every game. But I'm not a fan of those ideas being left in the game if they don't work. Things that used to seem like content are starting to just come off as bloat. I miss the hand-crafted trophies and single-player modes etc, the current copy-paste trophies and clusterfuck "classic" mode feel so off to me.
There was already a door in that wall!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You don't see people who play SF Alpha go with 3TS or 4U. Sure you ger 4 Vanilla players go up to 4U, but otherwise they don't automatically move. Instead they foster communities within those. It's why you still see KoF98(UM) people.
My comment about you was towards certain attitudes of the competitive fanbase who wouldn't even nudge because it doesn't exactly play as their own version, regardless of whether it is good or not.
I defend the trophy thing by virtue of there's really not to copy-paste back in Melee. I'd argue it took them time that would be given to elsewhere.
See also, SSE and Sonic's inclusion in Brawl (oh Sega).
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
This is great since I just brought awakening and pokemon X the other day to play on my 3DS I'm getting on Christmas...which is today
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
The weird thing I don't get is that the complicated mechanics are somehow offputting to bad players? Melee is just as accessible to new players as the other games and people aren't really going to be playing casually with competitive players. I say all this as someone who can't wavedash or L-cancel that it's not off-putting at all to me that there is a way higher ceiling than I will ever reach. The game is still super fun and was the best-selling GCN title, I don't understand where this notion comes from.
Again, I play pretty casually and enjoy 4 a whole lot, so this isn't a hypercompetitive player that's upset about "muh mechanics", but people can appreciate and have a deep game without scaring off newcomers/casuals. It's not like Melee didn't have items or wacky stages.
Again, I play pretty casually and enjoy 4 a whole lot, so this isn't a hypercompetitive player that's upset about "muh mechanics", but people can appreciate and have a deep game without scaring off newcomers/casuals. It's not like Melee didn't have items or wacky stages.
Yeah to be honest it's pretty low on my list of criticisms but most of my problems with Smash 4 are either omissions or weird design choices surrounding new features so it doesn't compare to previous games very well.
I think that the series going online probably had something to do with it. There are ways of fixing that problem though so yeah it's not something I've ever really understood either. I'm not that good at Smash but I prefer the feel of Melee/Project M because it's a lot easier to improvise decent followups and I find that really satisfying.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Though I honestly still think people are looking at Classic Mode weirdly. It's literally the same thing except you can pick fights.
I don't get though is how "Melee is also good for casual" somehow puts it above the rest though, since if we look things casually the later games are "better".
Melee = accessible, high skill ceiling
Brawl and Smash 4 = accessible, lower skill ceiling
Sakurai punishes players who play the game competitively for no logical reason. There is no effect on "casual" players by doing this. He believe that by making the game more shallow (slower, less hitstun, less movement options) this somehow benefits beginners who just want to play as Pikachu randomly with their friends and down b against Mario with items on and on random stages.
The high level players pushing the skill ceiling in ANY smash bros game will still smoke casual players and make them want to unplug their controller and never play again, so I'll never understand his whole "Melee is too difficult" sentiment. Melee wasn't too difficult until he said so and compared it to Brawl.
Not much to debate with here besides disadvantages for beginners.
Even with Sm4sh, begineers are always getting wrecked by people that have their head wrapped around the mechanics and characters. Unless you stay away from tournaments and For Glory, you have to deal with the struggle until you improve.
The same goes for Street Fighter, Marvel, etc., but those games are catered to more hardcore players entirely. Smash doesn't do this. Melee is easy to learn for just casual play and hard to master if you want a challenge. That's the best way to go about Smash, yet the latest doesn't do enough to drive people off of Melee.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
No one objected to Melee having a steep learning curve or anything until the Melee vs. Brawl split happened. Obviously Melee isn't as good as later games if you mostly just care about getting to play as characters you like and having it for parties, but my point is that the casual vs. competitive split is artificial since we can have both. Smash doesn't have to gut the deeper mechanics to appeal to casual players, it already did appeal to them and they will play mostly oblivious to wavedashing or whatever.
Online is a decent argument I guess, except proper matchmaking would fix whatever issues are caused anyways.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I was merely using the "casual" aspect though, not the potential competitiveness. The way you imply make it so that casuals would care about those. Yeah a person who knows how the game plays through will beat a casual... so? That's not the point.
The crux of my argument is how Melee is better than Sm4sh or hell even Brawl in a casual standpoint, when they most care more about characters or all the flashy stages. It's not about "casuals growing into hardcore players" or shit like that, we're just talking plainly about the "casuals".
I made that point because you get people saying "Well Melee is a casual game too, so win win!" Yet somehow they forget that the later games had much more for casuals to offer, like more collect-a-thons or more characters to play as.
It's like whatever you say somehow they can twist it in to something else entirely.
I think you're overestimating how many of us actually have this attitude.
Project M and Melee aren't even the same game yet we played former for a good while.
People are usually using Melee to illustrate a point that if we got Brawl: Alternate Melee Universe Edition most people wouldn't even notice the difference. Of course Melee itself isn't as good from a casual standpoint because it has less stuff.
IchigoSharingan
Member
Or he's just making shit up on the spot. We have no way of knowing how many Melee fans have that attitude. It's a shitty claim that's more slanderous than truthful.
but at least that's more objective than being a creep in this thread and making weird comments about "you melee fans" while at the same time telling them to stop "bitching":
Uuuuh yeah there are people who can look at the credits yes.
Spring-Loaded
Member
"Playing like Melee/high skill ceiling" and "bigger number of characters and casual stuff" are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think anyone is saying "Melee itself is better than 3 and 4 for casuals," and that they're talking about the game in its current state? They are clearly referring to Melee's "high skill ceiling, wide appeal" approach whether it was entirely intentional aside.
How? They can dash dance too. Speed is a strength regardless. Fast characters dominated both the Brawl and Smash4 meta without dashdancing. Really curious to see your logic on this one.
MaverickHunterAsh
Member
Poor guy, I really feel for Sakurai. He's a visionary who has made six absolutely incredible games that are better than 99% of everything else out there (Smash 64/Melee/Brawl/Wii U/3DS + Kid Icarus Uprising), yet so many people in the awful Smash community - full of egotistical pricks who know nothing of the trials and tribulations of game development - are only interested in staying unnaturally laser-focused on the things they don't like about his games and call him "lazy" or "a hack" because of them. Oh, Sakurai didn't make the latest Smash game exactly how you wanted him to make it with the exact roster of characters you and only you wanted? Clearly he's a lazy, untalented developer.
We're lucky he wants to keep making these games at all considering how unappreciative and irrationally damning the Smash fanbase is about every little thing.
And this isn't a "Melee and its fans suck" post either. Fans of every division of the Smash community are guilty of this, Smash Wii U/3DS fans included. Thankfully there are also a lot of people in the Smash community (some right here on NeoGAF) who do get it, and it's those people who must make it worth Sakurai's time to keep making these games - but damn the complainers are obnoxiously loud and proud about their vitriol.
We're lucky he wants to keep making these games at all considering how unappreciative and irrationally damning the Smash fanbase is about every little thing.
And this isn't a "Melee and its fans suck" post either. Fans of every division of the Smash community are guilty of this, Smash Wii U/3DS fans included. Thankfully there are also a lot of people in the Smash community (some right here on NeoGAF) who do get it, and it's those people who must make it worth Sakurai's time to keep making these games - but damn the complainers are obnoxiously loud and proud about their vitriol.
SinCityAssassin
Member
Man, this thread is down for the count.
He added corren , no one asked for her/him
and i don't believe it was chosen from Poll.
He felt that adding another Fire Emblem character would be too much, but someone told him that Corrin would be a great addition to how unique he/she is. Corrin wasn't someone I thought about but they look really cool to play as so I'm all for it.
Anyway, on a different subject other than Smash, Kid Icarus: Uprising is a really amazing game that I've been playing through recently. Lots of attention to detail and an excellent return of a franchise and turned expectations on their head as to what a Kid Icarus revival would even be. The writing is great, the action is great, the info dumps from trophies are great. I would be all for giving Sakurai another franchise to revive.
How is that an inherently 'bad' thing. You want Sakurai to gain the approval of everyone when deciding to add characters? Like he says in the article, everyone wants someone so no matter who you add, you upset people. There's people who are pissed that Bayonetta and Cloud are in for fucks sake. People just fixate on what's not. You build a house and people share their disdain for a piece of furniture.
The revisionist history in this thread is incredible. Brawl and Smash 4, poorly received?
Sakurai is incredibly talented and works his ass off making games. When he has creative control, you get Meteos and Kid Icarus Uprising. When George Lucas has control, you get The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I don't think I need to say any more.
Sakurai is incredibly talented and works his ass off making games. When he has creative control, you get Meteos and Kid Icarus Uprising. When George Lucas has control, you get The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones. I don't think I need to say any more.
Nintendo did, I'm sure. Sorry you don't like the painting, though.
Adding a shitty character who nobody wants to a game that's like 50% fanservice is an inherently bad thing, yes.
And even if somebody did want him, the Fire Emblem series was already disproportionately overrepresented. Fire Emblem fans should have been pleased with the FIVE characters already representing their series. If Corrin hadn't been announced, nobody - NOBODY - would be complaining that Fire Emblem is underrepresented and the final DLC character should've been a Fire Emblem character instead of whoever else it might have been. The time and effort and money that's going into making fucking Corrin could've been put towards pleasing another fanbase that isn't quite as well represented, or even introducing a new franchise to Smash. But no. They decided to add another Fire Emblem character instead.
So yes, adding Corrin was a shitty decision. I'd say almost objectively so, as the outrage over Corrin was far louder than any excitement that he made it in.
All that said, no, it doesn't make Sakurai a shitty person or a shitty game designer. Good people are allowed to make shitty decisions once in a while.
People themselves don't even know what they want. And how you can call a character in a fighting game bad before you've even used said character or said character has even been released? I'm just baffled that people can call Sakurai a God among men for including Bayonetta and flip out over a character like Corrin all within the same breath, as if people can't take compromises. Everything has to be to their taste, each one of the millions of people who play Smash have to be pleased and each slot on the character select screen has to be megaton worthy. Like, maybe Sakurai really likes this character and saw legitimate potential in the moveset, nah that can't be it.
It's a fighting game and as such the character that Sakurai sees as having the more lucrative move set is going to come out on top of the pecking order. There's a stark difference between that mindset and that of those who ask for Ridley and the likes. I mean put it this way, Sony couldn't even get Activision to allow them to put Crash Bandicoot into All Stars. How crazy is that? To put characters into games like this isn't an easy task and there's always going to be a balance of what the fans want, what Sakurai the gamer wants and what the business side of things want. A lot of thought goes into what franchise gets in. I'd argue that a symbiotic relationship exists between Smash and Fire Emblem, going ask the way back to Ike's inclusion in Brawl. I could say the same about Kid Icarus. Smash gave these characters limelight and brought the franchises a lease of life and that popularity fed back into Smash.
I remember when people were worried that FE: Awakening wouldn't get localised and that the dev team were worried that it'd be the last one. Now we complain about overexposure. Heh.
Nah.
Corrin has an interesting moveset. People whining about representation or slots is damn silly. They're sadly not likely to put a niche series as DLC (Bayonetta being the community pick, while Lucas is a Brawl veteran). Fire Emblem's popularity is on the uprise.
I do think it's odd that Roy got in over Wolf, but that's clearly more due to the Melee/Smash fanbase wanting him back, not so much the Fire Emblem fanbase.
But anyway, despite that, the people whining about slots and representation aren't typically the people who play the game the longest. I'll be enjoying the interesting moveset and gameplay that Corrin will bring.
Neoriceisgood
Member
During Brawl I legitimately understood a few of the criticisms of Sakurai's choices.
During the development & extended release of Smash U/3DS I've come to accept that a large portion of the smash fandom is just a complete intolerable mess.
I could probably write a thousand things I'd personally like different in every single smash game to date, but the people basically asking for Sakurai's head and pretending he's some incompetent zealout are ridiculous.
I can't remember the last time that wading through a smash thread didn't come across as delving deep into the salt mines of old.
During the development & extended release of Smash U/3DS I've come to accept that a large portion of the smash fandom is just a complete intolerable mess.
I could probably write a thousand things I'd personally like different in every single smash game to date, but the people basically asking for Sakurai's head and pretending he's some incompetent zealout are ridiculous.
I can't remember the last time that wading through a smash thread didn't come across as delving deep into the salt mines of old.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
On a related note people think I am defending Brawl's decisions on certain things. I seriously dislike the slowness and stuff like tripping among other things. Nope - but I commend them from bringing concepts of "unique" character builds later expanded upon on 4's newcomers and attempts on making "clone" characters more distinct.
Also Corrin address a new thing with the criers. Remember before that "Sakurai is so biased with KI!" shitposting? Now it became FE!
But they do though, you just need to look at forums.
But then that's a pointless argument though, since, well, it doesn't exist and mostly thrive on "if only".
I'm just going for observation though, especially from different boards. Hell you even see it on GAF. And I haven't even touched on certain fanbase obsession over characters.
They're not exclusive of course, but then people are using a fantasy as an argument, like this magical "Melee game with 4's characters".
Because it gives already faster characters more ammo. Heavy characters are inherently crap at this game unless they're given many perks, but stuff like carried momentum and inherently better dancing towards faster characters put them at a worse state.
Also Corrin address a new thing with the criers. Remember before that "Sakurai is so biased with KI!" shitposting? Now it became FE!
But they do though, you just need to look at forums.
But then that's a pointless argument though, since, well, it doesn't exist and mostly thrive on "if only".
I'm just going for observation though, especially from different boards. Hell you even see it on GAF. And I haven't even touched on certain fanbase obsession over characters.
They're not exclusive of course, but then people are using a fantasy as an argument, like this magical "Melee game with 4's characters".
Because it gives already faster characters more ammo. Heavy characters are inherently crap at this game unless they're given many perks, but stuff like carried momentum and inherently better dancing towards faster characters put them at a worse state.
I find it funny people disregarding Lucas input on ep 5, when he was the one that created the biggests parts of the movie that werent present in the original story. Also, EP 3 is certainly better than 6. Maybe even 4. It just gets bitterness because 1 and 2 were really awful, but i still prefer all of those than the lifeless thing that EP 7.
About sakurai. I really liked all of his games and always thought people were a bit harsh on him. But to each his own.
About sakurai. I really liked all of his games and always thought people were a bit harsh on him. But to each his own.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
The best piece a gathered from this article:
Even the guy who made Pikachu higher tier than Mewtwo in Melee thinks the Ewok victory was ridiculous.
I love this man.
Even the guy who made Pikachu higher tier than Mewtwo in Melee thinks the Ewok victory was ridiculous.
I love this man.