Green Mamba
Member
Sure, but the way Rainbowgun words it it seems they find voicing disappointment in Corrin to be childish in and of itself. Which is silly.
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Sakurai discusses George Lucas and fan criticism
- Thread starter Cerium
- Start date
BumblebeeCody
Member
Pretty much. I still stand by the fact I think Smash 4 is a terrible Smash Bros game, but the problem is when any criticism is shrugged as pointless hate. It doesn't matter how much you know about the game or even have valid criticisms directed towards a form of media/anything, you get the instant "protection brigade". Being called a "Melee Purist". Eh, Smash 4 still sucks.
thechristoph
Sir!
Hey look, we got a time traveler here.
Also LOL at thinking that the lineup was entirely one guy's decision.
That I agree on. I can't wait to see how the Smash 4 metagame will develop as time passes.
I should have emphasized the still.
I can understand being disappointed that your character of choice didn't make it, but you have to agree that the fact that some people are still at it, and the way some of them, the very vocal ones in particular, makes it look a bit childish.
We have people doubting Sakurais competence as a director, accusing him of faking the ballot results, and overall just complaining in an angry fashion that they didn't got their way.
That's why I mean by childish.
Should have worded it better
To talk about the giving a voice to the beginners part of the article, the first game I ever beat by myself when I was little was Kirby's Adventure on the NES. I felt so accomplished to finally beat a game the whole way through with no help from anyone. NES era had a sea of very hard and very challenging games that I do love but could never beat. When I started getting better, I started aiming for 100% completion of the game which provided an extra challenge I wanted because I had to be better for some levels and keep my abilities. This also helped me get better in other games too.
Many complain about the difficulty of Kirby games, even to this day, but I still love the games and enjoy them immensely for their quality and what they offer.
Many complain about the difficulty of Kirby games, even to this day, but I still love the games and enjoy them immensely for their quality and what they offer.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I legitimately understand being disappointed in Corrin as long as they always hated Roy for the same reasons.
Thanks.
Granted, I find Brawl to be much worse but I stopped playing Smash 4 around six months ago. The new characters are cool but I don't want to pay again and again for more characters, especially when the gameplay is so slow and campy, honestly.
As for Sakurai's comment, I share very little of his game design ideas usually but in this case, there's still some truth in what he says.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
yep. it's appropriate for him to use the example of lucas because his comparison isn't about quality, but the toxic unregulated relationship that can form between fans and creator. we can all have opinions on smash and SW but ultimately none of us know what it's like to be in their shoes as a creative, and working with so much outside pressure. so it's a little ignorant to drag sakurai over this.
i've created work and had it screen publicly and it's a very unique and unnerving experience. you go from having complete control during production to none at all. you can't control what people think, or even what your intended message was.
You got it twisted. Falcon is starting to fall off despite a focused effort of a group of Falcon mains to revolutionize his game. His recovery just can't be compensated for.
Sheik, Peach and Puff are played by three of the top 5 players in the world and are seen at every major. Peach may not get used in top 8 singles, but are routinely used in top 8 for doubles in one of the strongest team compositions.
You don't see many Ice Climbers because they're so rare, and the three big players don't really fly out to tournaments all that much, but when they do there's almost always an IC main in top 8.
The meta is absolutely dominated by Fox, but you also have to understand that the current competitive scene is ruled by six players who are almost untouchable. They play Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Marth, and Puff. Pretty good variety there, and considering that they make up 2/3 of every major they all attend, it's not surprising that you're seeing the same characters over and over. Doesn't mean there aren't other viable characters though.
To your overall point, I agree, Melee is not balanced well, but I don't think Smash 4 is either, and I love both of those games.
The difference is that Melee has been out since 2001 and 4 of the characters that are top tier now were top tier back then and Smash 4 came out last year, has more characters for the meta to figure out match ups and can be still be patched.
In all fairness, Melee's latest tier list from a few weeks ago did change things up, like putting Fox into his own tier and shifting around some tier placements (Notably Yoshi and Ganondorf). The meta still has room to change, even if it won't drasticly change anything it still has room to evolve.
Are you saying that Lucas was right to create Jar Jar?
Corrin, I get. But people are angry at Bayonetta? Why?
curlyfriski
Banned
What I'm getting out of this is that Sakurai liked The Phantom Menace.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
It depends on how you read it, and what you read into criticism. Constructive criticism involves actually suggesting what can make it better, while highlighting the problems of what is wrong.
What most people are doing online is this; "GEORGE LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD. HE RAPED IT. THE FILMS ARE SUCH DOGSHIT. WHAT A FUCKING SHITHEAD. I HOPE HE DIES. FUCK HIM FUCK HIM"
There is little coherent assessment to what he tried to do, or critical thinking in trying to define how he got into the mess which was the prequel.
< Makes a franchise that hits at the right time and becomes unlike anything ever seen. He spends 20 years away from film, while raising his children and taking in a big fortune.
< In the meantime he is considered one of the absolute great american directors but without having to prove it with film after film after film.
< Is it really a wonder that when he got back from such a hiatus, which such limited experience as he had, that he wouldn't be rusty?
< What was more surprising though was that he was surrounded by hacks like Rick McCollum(or whatever his name was) and others who wouldn't speak out against the script.
Star Wars Prequels fails because of the script. A lot like The Hobbit trilogy. There are good actors, there are fantastic SFX and all of the crew is star ridden. But the script cannot be saved.
George Lucas desperately needed smart writers in the room with him going; "George, you haven't written anything for years. this is absolute terrible dialogue. this doesn't work at all".
It's always easy to criticise. It's why a lot of unintelligent people rely on that to feel noticed and heard. Constructive criticism requires more thought. I hate it when people do drive-by posts to right something sucks. It's so utterly pointless and meaningless to any sort of discussion.
Suggest how it should be fixed- what should have been done instead. demonstrate that you're in command of knowing why something doesn't work by saying what you would have liked instead.
The other thing is that there is value in media and content that dares even if it fails. I dislike this idea that the only content that matters is the ones that have no failures. Some of the most interesting movies and games I have ever played, some of the most surprising ones, had glaring mistakes, but their high notes still managed to surprise me and make it really worth it for me.
When you risk a lot, you are risking to fail. But you don't always fail all the way. Sakurai is correct that a lot of fans don't express their criticism in any intelligent way and of course it comes out as something you would feel hurt by. Particularly when those people have any idea how difficult it is to make video games.
Most people don't realise that even mediocre games. Even games that lack vision, like the latest Assassins Creed or Call of Duty, had people slaving away for years, working over time many days. Many games throw more designers, builders and programmers, and QA testers who work insanely hard. It's disingenuous to say that the studio behind it is lazy.
No, the people in charge are playing it safe. There is an army of developers behind this game who work their fucking asses off. That is not something you can understand if you have never been in some large scale project with big budgets, high risks tight deadlines and a lot of pressure on everyone. Nobody has enough time. Nobody gets large enough budgets. No games. Everything is compromise, stress, pressure.
What most people are doing online is this; "GEORGE LUCAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD. HE RAPED IT. THE FILMS ARE SUCH DOGSHIT. WHAT A FUCKING SHITHEAD. I HOPE HE DIES. FUCK HIM FUCK HIM"
There is little coherent assessment to what he tried to do, or critical thinking in trying to define how he got into the mess which was the prequel.
< Makes a franchise that hits at the right time and becomes unlike anything ever seen. He spends 20 years away from film, while raising his children and taking in a big fortune.
< In the meantime he is considered one of the absolute great american directors but without having to prove it with film after film after film.
< Is it really a wonder that when he got back from such a hiatus, which such limited experience as he had, that he wouldn't be rusty?
< What was more surprising though was that he was surrounded by hacks like Rick McCollum(or whatever his name was) and others who wouldn't speak out against the script.
Star Wars Prequels fails because of the script. A lot like The Hobbit trilogy. There are good actors, there are fantastic SFX and all of the crew is star ridden. But the script cannot be saved.
George Lucas desperately needed smart writers in the room with him going; "George, you haven't written anything for years. this is absolute terrible dialogue. this doesn't work at all".
It's always easy to criticise. It's why a lot of unintelligent people rely on that to feel noticed and heard. Constructive criticism requires more thought. I hate it when people do drive-by posts to right something sucks. It's so utterly pointless and meaningless to any sort of discussion.
Suggest how it should be fixed- what should have been done instead. demonstrate that you're in command of knowing why something doesn't work by saying what you would have liked instead.
The other thing is that there is value in media and content that dares even if it fails. I dislike this idea that the only content that matters is the ones that have no failures. Some of the most interesting movies and games I have ever played, some of the most surprising ones, had glaring mistakes, but their high notes still managed to surprise me and make it really worth it for me.
When you risk a lot, you are risking to fail. But you don't always fail all the way. Sakurai is correct that a lot of fans don't express their criticism in any intelligent way and of course it comes out as something you would feel hurt by. Particularly when those people have any idea how difficult it is to make video games.
Most people don't realise that even mediocre games. Even games that lack vision, like the latest Assassins Creed or Call of Duty, had people slaving away for years, working over time many days. Many games throw more designers, builders and programmers, and QA testers who work insanely hard. It's disingenuous to say that the studio behind it is lazy.
No, the people in charge are playing it safe. There is an army of developers behind this game who work their fucking asses off. That is not something you can understand if you have never been in some large scale project with big budgets, high risks tight deadlines and a lot of pressure on everyone. Nobody has enough time. Nobody gets large enough budgets. No games. Everything is compromise, stress, pressure.
"It's not King K. Rool/Banjo/Snake/Shantae/Shovel Knight!"
Yes, Smash 4 might be more well balanced than Melee, but that isn't a high bar. There's like 40 characters sitting solidly at mid tier with serious flaws that make them not viable. Patches are nice, and there's potential to eventually have a well balanced game, but it isn't there yet, and the patches that have been put out already don't inspire optimism.
GrotesqueBeauty
Banned
The fact that this thread has become an echo chamber of apparent Smash thread regulars (based on the content of the replies and circular posting by the same handful of users) who see it as a fresh platform for old arguments pretty much validates Sakurai's underlying concerns. It's funny that most of these posters have largely ignored more spontaneous reactions to the content of the article itself in favor of defensively justifying their long belabored opinions on the series as though Sakurai had personally called them out.
Have fun angrily circle jerking with the same 12 gaffers who are probably destined to smother the life out of every tangentially related Smash thread because a dozen 20,000 post OTs weren't enough room for their piss and vinegar.
Have fun angrily circle jerking with the same 12 gaffers who are probably destined to smother the life out of every tangentially related Smash thread because a dozen 20,000 post OTs weren't enough room for their piss and vinegar.
Ingueferroque
Banned
Three movies out of six is hardly a single painting in a house.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
something about indies and rool
This. Just petty "It wasn't -insert character- that i wanted, wah".
When as a majority, most characters that were put in were well wanted by a majority.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Huh weird, I thought I see some Falcons occasionally. Didn't realize Peach is still hanging around.
And I doubt Smash 4 is balanced either.
And that's fine. And honestly, II is much worse. At least I has a clear structure and is well-paced.
But they do exist though. I dislike this notion that you got this "secret order of proper judgment of the game viewed away by the masses" when you see plenty of folk have that.
Outrun
Member
The idea that Disney is protecting SW from Lucas is hilarious.
TFA is the most cynical cash grab piece of movie making that I have witness in decades.
The entire movie is one bit of fan service after another. It is a film that manages to both piss on the events and legacy of the OT and PT.
The sad part of this movie is that I believe that Disney has way too much power in media now. They control sports coverage, TV, comics, and movies. Like many of the video game reviews of today, the TFA reviews fail to mention the glaring flaws of its story. If I did not know better, I would say that reviewers like the ones working at AICN are on the take. Disney is in a position to manufacture hype. What is to stop them to preventing a harsh SW reviewer from being barred from a review screening of Captain America: Civil War?
Disney has shown that they will torpedo their own IP if it suits their goals. Witness the reduction of the X-Men comics..... because they do not own the movie rights....
One AICN writer basically stated that Hamill's performance as Luke in TFA was his best characterization thus far....
Also, the attempts to diminish the genius of Lucas is astounding. He is the creator of SW. Not Marsha Lucas, not Gary Kurtz, not JJ Abrams.
Proper respect should be observed, because this narrative that SW was a success despite GL is laughable.
TFA is the most cynical cash grab piece of movie making that I have witness in decades.
The entire movie is one bit of fan service after another. It is a film that manages to both piss on the events and legacy of the OT and PT.
The sad part of this movie is that I believe that Disney has way too much power in media now. They control sports coverage, TV, comics, and movies. Like many of the video game reviews of today, the TFA reviews fail to mention the glaring flaws of its story. If I did not know better, I would say that reviewers like the ones working at AICN are on the take. Disney is in a position to manufacture hype. What is to stop them to preventing a harsh SW reviewer from being barred from a review screening of Captain America: Civil War?
Disney has shown that they will torpedo their own IP if it suits their goals. Witness the reduction of the X-Men comics..... because they do not own the movie rights....
One AICN writer basically stated that Hamill's performance as Luke in TFA was his best characterization thus far....
Also, the attempts to diminish the genius of Lucas is astounding. He is the creator of SW. Not Marsha Lucas, not Gary Kurtz, not JJ Abrams.
Proper respect should be observed, because this narrative that SW was a success despite GL is laughable.
I really really like you. Don't we have an OT for smash topics? This is sakurai as a dude talking about Lucas and art. Totally different subject. Jesus gang
TheDinoman
Member
DICKS AHOY
Banned
At least George Lucas would've delivered on the giant CGI space pterodactyls and pirate crocodiles, Sakurai.
Regardless of my thoughts on Lucas track-record over the past 20 years, I fully agree with Sakurai's sentiments in that article. Shame people will read it how they want to read it, or in other words people assuming Sakurai's taking a swipe at people complaining Smash 4 isn't Melee.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Neff
Member
The difference between Sakurai and Lucas here is that Sakurai answers to Nintendo, while Lucas is entirely self-employed and until recently fully owned the work he was creating.
Sakurai is responsible for making a game which will move a lot of copies for Nintendo. The changes he made to Brawl and Smash 4 might not have been the best changes for 'the fans', but they were the right changes for Nintendo, especially regarding Brawl.
After the '77 movie, Lucas had no responsibility to anything, except the budget he set himself with episode V onwards. It was his property, he could and did do whatever the hell he wanted with it.
Both retained control over their respective works, and they made the art they wanted to make to the best of their ability, as they should do. 'The fans' are entitled to spend, not spend, or whine on the internet, but no more that.
Englebert3rd
Unconfirmed Member
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOUR FACE?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
only if wolf is that stupid shape-shifting assassin alien from the beginning of episode 2
WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOUR FACE?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Doesn't Rool also shapeshift
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I saw it more as either wacky multiple-personality syndrome or him being so bad at accepting defeat at the hands of semi-naked apes that he just creates a new persona to inhibit with every new game
before Nintendo threw that out the window.
IchigoSharingan
Member
You're kind of arguing that Sakurai did call them out.
Outrun
Member
lol, more like angry OT fan....
Green Mamba
Member
Seriously, what happened to Ganondorf's face this time around?
They absolutely nailed it in Brawl:
Guy looked appropriately mean as hell.
RandomExpletive
Member
Brawl Dorf looked way too evil, though I'd take his WW design without question, love that shit.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Well considering the article in the OP has Sakurai calling the 'special edition' versions of the original trilogy pointless despite respecting Lucas, I think he'd rather just literally just upres them to HD and call it a day.
It's Nintendo's call either way.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Sakurai is life.. gotta love both him and kamiya
MegaManTrigger
Banned
Pointing out GL's flaws as a director/writer =/= Attempts to diminish him.
Something I feel that most people don't understand, is what it's like to be a creator. Star Wars was George Lucas's creation, and he had every right to push it in whatever direction he wanted. It was his vision, and he shared it with people. Just because you're a fan of something, and you want it to go in a certain direction doesn't mean that the creator of that something has to fulfill your wishes. Ultimately, it's their creation. They're just sharing it with you, regardless of how you feel they should do things.
TheDinoman
Member
So if George Lucas replaced the entire original trilogy with a looping gif of Jar Jar Binks dancing in a black void, would that be okay just because he "created it"?. One has to draw a line somewhere.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
No, we do not "have" to draw lines anywhere. As much as I dislike the prequels, and what Lucas did to the Original Trilogy, he would be well within his right to do something like that. He could have released a "reimagining" of the original movies (when he still had the rights) with it just being a video of him pooping, and it would still be within his rights.
The only 'consequence' would it would be a commercial failure. However he doesn't owe me, you, or any other fan anything at all.
Compared to Melee? Smash 4 is leaps and bounds beyond Melee in terms of balance. There's no D or F tiers in Smash 4.
Green Mamba
Member
Is it possible for the King of Evil to look too evil?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
This is kind of dumb because it implies Star Wars is only his and diminishes the work that many other people put into making it great. Should their art just be cut from history because Lucas wants to? Star Wars is not the product of a single auteur but hundreds of people and it's incredibly disrespectful to them to do what he's done to the OT.
I also really dislike the idea that we're not allowed to criticize someone for hurting art because it's theirs.