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[fvng]

Salon was vaguely serious back in the day, but it is purely a cesspool of linkbait articles now. They solely exist to tempt people to repost articles and collect angry comments.

Yeah articles like Glenn Greenwald blowing the lid off the NSA this year was total clickbait.

 

[Kincaido]

Call Kotaku

 

[Azheim]

Ugh. This article is clickbait and we're all falling for it.

 

[B-Dubs]

This is why you don't get high before your deadline guys.

 

[Cartman86]

Think this is a classic example of seeing only what you want to see.

For instance, he ignores the strong female characters. Impa. Mentions Zelda as Shiek briefly, but don't forget, Zelda is the only one who isn't fooled by Ganondorf but the king -- a man -- is. And Malon practically runs Lon Lon Ranch.

And let's not forget: Of the Seven Sages, which were suggested to consist solely of white males in A Link to the Past, 5 of them are women (and they are multi-racial, including a Gerudo).

Now, I'm not saying the game is sexist either way. But if you wanted, you could find examples (and ignore other evidence) to prove that, for instance, Ocarina makes men seem kinda totally useless:

- Malon is fat, lazy, and his 5 year old daughter runs his ranch.
- Ingo is conniving and evil; look at that evil mustache cliche!!!!
- King of Hyrule is useless and easily tricked; again, his young daughter practically runs the Kingdom.
- The carpenters are captured by thieves and totally unable to escape without Link's help.

Again, not saying the game is sexist. And there's more female damsel caricatures than useless lazy oaf men. But if you're going to pick isolated examples and ignore others, you can build whatever case you want.

The article may be shit, but sticking up for Zelda in the face of a massively problematic female title character (among others) because you find some random "oaf" male character is the crowning achievement of video game nerdbro apologetics. Why even bother with this false equivalency?

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Did somebody say racists?

 

[March of the Crabs]

This article reminds me a lot of when I was in high school and was given an essay topic and thesis and forced to write about it. I just used a bunch of big words, impressive structural and grammatical flourishes and bullshitted my way through those things.

 

[Eusis]

Again, not saying the game is sexist. And there's more female damsel caricatures than useless lazy oaf men. But if you're going to pick isolated examples and ignore others, you can build whatever case you want.

The real problem kind of goes with the series as a collective whole and Zelda specifically, beyond that it doesn't seem overly sexist to me unless you want to argue about how you're always playing as Link (and admittedly additional playable characters would be preferable to these guide characters), singling out OoT is actually kind of funny because relative to prior Zelda games it was one of the most progressive with Zelda, and they went a bit further with WW. Then rather than complete the process and dump the maiden-in-distress angle entirely it kind of stalled out afterwards, including that full blown regression I mentioned.

EDIT: Actually thinking about it... OoT was still kind of problematic there even beyond Zelda, but I think the series shed more of that over time.

 

[thefit]

Why did this game get reviewed anyway its like 10 years old we already know it sucked 10 years ago you don't need to remind us of this 10 years later in HD.

 

[cashman]

Been reading salon for the past few months. Many of their articles are similar in tone to this.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Yeah articles like Glenn Greenwald blowing the lid on the NSA this year was total clickbait.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[GrizzNKev]

I've never heard of this website, I'd have preferred it to stay that way.

 

[Dryk]

Hang on a second? Wasn't Ruto off doing her own thing perfectly fine when you "rescue" her?

 

[Lindsey Lohan]

Salon is a joke, who cares what they have to say?

 

[Hobo Zombie]

Consider the source. Salon hosts a bunch of politically correct bullshit, so naturally an article about LoZ posted there will focus on politically correct bullshit.

 

[Codeblue]

masaquered? Is that like... a massacre at a masquerade ball or something?

I stared at that post for a good while thinking "Masqueraded as what?"

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

Dude has a point about the racism and sexism in the series, but I feel like he kinda jumped the shark at the end there

 

[CorvoSol]

The article may be shit, but sticking up for Zelda in the face of a massively problematic female title character (among others) because you find some random "oaf" male character is the crowning achievement of video game nerdbro apologetics. Why even bother with this false equivalency?

But the Titular Princess has only grown more useful and active over the years. People chalk her up to Peach and roll with it, kinda ignoring that Zelda has basically gotten more and more involved as time goes on. In Wind Waker she's a constant companion to the hero, only failing to do things on her own when basically supreme evil rolls along. In Spirit Tracks she's playable for basically half the game, wears full plate, and beats crap up with a weapon the size of Link. She's his greatest and ever-present ally in that game. And while Zelda isn't as physically active in Skyward Sword, the game still has her on her own adventure, with her own growth, and she only needs Link to bail her out, again, at the end.

Hell, Skyward Sword begins with Zelda saving Link twice.

 

[Riposte]

I stared at that post for a good while thinking "Masqueraded as what?"

Majora?

 

[Burt]

Someone tweet this to Patton Oswalt.

 

[watershed]

I don't mind critical readings of video games like one would do with a literary text or any other artform. But this one is just off base. Zelda has grown a lot in the tropes it employs.

 

[fvng]

Don't really disagree with the problematic racial and gender imagery in the games. I have little reason to think any of it is nefariously intentional, but it's still that kind of casual story time fantasy racism you also see in Lord of the Rings.

It isn't. Japan just isn't this strung up politically correct culture that the US is. So things that wouldn't elicit a passing thought in Japan are highly scrutinized here. Doesn't mean there is something wrong in analyzing the political or social implications of a video game's story or characters.

It's not art if it can't be examined and dissected and it seems like anytime an article like this is posted (whether you agree or not) there is a backlash. If video games are truly just "games" that can never be dissected, then critics like Ebert were right. This sort of discourse should be welcomed by gamers, EVEN if you don't agree the thesis of the article.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I see, Salon is a shitty online publication because of this one article. Flawless logic. Oh modern gamers.. sigh

 

[Jawbreaker]

Salon is to conservatives what Breitbart is to liberals.

 

[Hobo Zombie]

Salon is to conservatives what Breitbart is to liberals.

Pretty much. Each deserves a healthy amount of disdain and/or scorn.

 

[MormaPope]

Dude has a point about the racism and sexism in the series, but I feel like he kinda jumped the shark at the end there

No, he really doesn't.

I don't think any of the designers for Zelda games throughout history intended for white men to feel more superior over women and anyone with a different skin color, right after the credits roll for the latest Zelda release.

Can conflicts in videogames just be self contained? Why does Nintendo owe consumers a realistic and harrowing perspective about race and equality in a series where musical instruments reverse time and masks can turn you into a godly being?

Zelda doesn't need to represent anyone or anything in a specific manner. The majority of people playing any Zelda game don't sense or notice this ''blatant racism'' that a few are picking out.

 

[Open Source]

Man, if I took ____ Studies classes in college, I'd never be able to enjoy anything. Maybe that's why they're such unhappy people.

 

[Eusis]

But the Titular Princess has only grown more useful and active over the years. People chalk her up to Peach and roll with it, kinda ignoring that Zelda has basically gotten more and more involved as time goes on. In Wind Waker she's a constant companion to the hero, only failing to do things on her own when basically supreme evil rolls along. In Spirit Tracks she's playable for basically half the game, wears full plate, and beats crap up with a weapon the size of Link. She's his greatest and ever-present ally in that game. And while Zelda isn't as physically active in Skyward Sword, the game still has her on her own adventure, with her own growth, and she only needs Link to bail her out, again, at the end.

Hell, Skyward Sword begins with Zelda saving Link twice.

There's still the problem though that the series sort of falls into that "save Zelda" trope at the end, and you glossed over how Phantom Hourglass fucked it up as a followup. It seems to me the ideal end point would be similar to Ys Seven, where (spoilers, but stupidly easy to guess ones and it's not the best game to play for story anywhere)

Spoiler

where the princess of the Kingdom you're in sneaks away to adventure with the party, and doesn't need rescuing as I recall or anything.

We really should be at the point where "save Zelda" is so overdone and with her various incarnations proving capable enough that they may as well either make her either a playable character or at least a significant NPC in whatever conflict's going on, like if Majora's Mask had her in it but didn't rewrite Majora's plan.

 

[Htown]

I don't think any of the designers for Zelda games throughout history intended for white men to feel more superior over women and anyone with a different skin color, right after the credits roll for the latest Zelda release.

Something can be racist or sexist without a creative intent to be racist or sexist.

The article is still hilariously terrible, but I'm just sayin.

 

[cuyahoga]

Yeah articles like Glenn Greenwald blowing the lid off the NSA this year was total clickbait.

Except he did that at The Guardian.

Anyways, Salon is contrarian bullshit, much like Slate. (See also: Slate's piece "Creed is totally underrated") And I typically give neither site my time of day, and this just reinforces that.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I see, Salon is a shitty online publication because of this one article. Flawless logic. Oh modern gamers.. sigh

Have you visited Salon lately? They've really dropped the ball as of late, and the NSA reveal are the exceptions, not the rule. Or, rather, it would be, if it were published by Salon and not the Guardian.

 

[Stronty]

I wonder what this guy has to say about PacMan and the much faster dot eating MsPacMan. Maybe he has some insight about Paperboy. I bet DuckHunt could be picked to death too. Are there any females or animals in Doom?

 

[fvng]

Or, rather, it would be, if it were published by Salon and not the Guardian.

Except he did that at The Guardian.

Anyways, Salon is contrarian bullshit, much like Slate. (See also: Slate's piece "Creed is totally underrated") And I typically give neither site my time of day, and this just reinforces that.

fair enough, my point was that a major journo like Greenwald is is a major contributor to Salon as well and dismissing the website because of one article they disagree with is pretty juvenile.

It seems like there is a habit of gamers to dismiss the entire publication for the opinion of one person in their staff. Gotta yawn at those people who are going through the motions giving predictable responses.

I like that David Cage suggested we should have more game criticism in the way there is criticism and disection on film and film theory.. This medium will never get to that place when you have gamers dismissing any opinion that flies in the face of their own. If a game is merely just a game that shouldn't be dissected, then the "Games are Art" mantra should die.

 

[akidnamededdy]

I guess all the real journalism was done for the day.

 

[Night Angel]

First post nailed it.

That whole thing was ridiculously over the top. It read like satire, so thanks for the disclaimer in the OP. We must have run out of real shit to complain about.

 

[fvng]

We must have run out of real shit to complain about.

Gamers will never have a shortage of things to complain about

 

[dropbear]

A generation of liberal arts grads with nothing to do...

Masterful post.

I'm usually not one to poke into threads like these and comment on video game editorials, but my better judgment falters here.

As others have stated, the point is dubious and the writing poor.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

It's pretty sad to see a site do this for clicks.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

fair enough, my point was that a major journo like Greenwald is is a major contributor to Salon as well and dismissing the website because of one article they disagree with is pretty juvenile.

It seems like there is a habit of gamers to dismiss the entire publication for the opinion of one person in their staff. Gotta yawn at those people who are going through the motions giving predictable responses.

I like that David Cage suggested we should have more game criticism in the way there is criticism and disection on film and film theory.. This medium will never get to that place when you have gamers dismissing any opinion that flies in the face of their own. If a game is merely just a game that shouldn't be dissected, then the "Games are Art" mantra should die.

No, he was a major contributer to Salon, until he quit. There's a reason he left for the Guardian, and it's probably related to the fact that Salon now relegates itself to articles on why Breaking Bad is actually about white power and cow abuse in Zelda.

 

[BluePigGanon]

The Internet has turned into a giant virtual high school, complete with people bouncing up to you saying omg didja hear what this person said?

 

[cuyahoga]

Have you visited Salon lately? They've really dropped the ball as of late, and the NSA reveal are the exceptions, not the rule. Or it would be, if it were published by Salon and not the Guardian.

I'm honestly struggling to think of the last decent original Salon piece I've read, and I coming up short. (They've ran some decent excerpts, but that hardly counts.)

I like that David Cage suggested we should have more game criticism in the way there is criticism and disection on film and film theory.. This medium will never get to that place when you have gamers dismissing any opinion that flies in the face of their own. If a game is merely just a game that shouldn't be dissected, then the "Games are Art" mantra should die.

There is a difference between smart and informed criticism, and stuff that just feels like it is grasping at straws—this unfortunately falls into the latter.


This thread title is weird though—I wouldn't prescribe this as the outlook of the entire site, just that of the writer.

 

[Warren Ellis]

he just treats zelda just like cultural critics treat any media not influenced by their ideology: it's racist, classist, sexist, homophobic, ethnocentric, made by a greedy corporation, etc etc

he is just being coerent, and that's good.

but this time maybe liberal gaf isn't happy because well.. it's zelda.

 

[Schnozberry]

Hard not to laugh. It's full of solipsism and lame faux-profundity if you can get past the minefield of progressive psychobabble.

 

[watershed]

I think there is a far better article to be written in exploring how the Legend of Zelda started and how it has evolved over time. I think it can be argued very well that the games employ certain tropes than can be read as racist, classist, sexist, or what have you. But to argue that the entire series adheres to these negative portrays of people and that it has not changed over time is false. The series is not frozen in time. Plus there are complexities and wrinkles that this article does not even attempt to explore such as the heavy use of pale skin villains, the Gerudo women being warriors, the Gorons and the Zoras and what they represent, etc.

In other words I think this is an article that tries to be deep in its criticisms but only scratches the surface in a way that suggests being controversial or topical for the sake of it without a deeper knowledge of the zelda games themselves.

 

[fvng]

No, he was a major contributer to Salon, until he quit. There's a reason he left for the Guardian.

contributor*

Your post disingenuously implies he left Salon on bad terms. He said himself he didn't.

"I have nothing but the highest regard for Salon and its commitment to independent and provocative journalism. "

Anyway, my point is dismissing a solid journalistic website over a Zelda article OPINION piece is stupid. They publish a lot of great articles, with or without Greenwald.

How Law Enforcement Hurts People with Disabilities

NSA director admits to misleading public on terror plots

GOP's fatal leadership failure is the real story behind the shutdown

Ronal Reagan's legacy on violence, the homeless, mental illness

An article you disagree with doesn't make it clickbait. If your whole world is video games I can see why this article would upset you to the point of writing off the entire website though.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I hate Zelda too only because Nintendo has masaquered the series.

masaquered? Is that like... a massacre at a masquerade ball or something?

Bwahahahahahahaha XD

 

[Brianimaniac]

The internet is so stupid that I honestly can't tell if I'm reading satire or not half the time. I don't want to comment or I risk embarrassing myself.

 

[CorvoSol]

There's still the problem though that the series sort of falls into that "save Zelda" trope at the end, and you glossed over how Phantom Hourglass fucked it up as a followup. It seems to me the ideal end point would be similar to Ys Seven, where (spoilers, but stupidly easy to guess ones and it's not the best game to play for story anywhere)

Spoiler

where the princess of the Kingdom you're in sneaks away to adventure with the party, and doesn't need rescuing as I recall or anything.

We really should be at the point where "save Zelda" is so overdone and with her various incarnations proving capable enough that they may as well either make her either a playable character or at least a significant NPC in whatever conflict's going on, like if Majora's Mask had her in it but didn't rewrite Majora's plan.

I concede there's still that, and that Phantom Hourglass and Twilight Princess are the worst about it, but still, 3/5 games in a line doesn't seem that bad to me. I could argue that saving Zelda is half the point of what the old ones wanted to do, but that's a discussion that doesn't belong attached to an article that cries racism when half the heroic species in Zelda aren't even human.

 

[peakish]

There's still the problem though that the series sort of falls into that "save Zelda" trope at the end, and you glossed over how Phantom Hourglass fucked it up as a followup. It seems to me the ideal end point would be similar to Ys Seven, where (spoilers, but stupidly easy to guess ones and it's not the best game to play for story anywhere)

Spoiler

where the princess of the Kingdom you're in sneaks away to adventure with the party, and doesn't need rescuing as I recall or anything.

We really should be at the point where "save Zelda" is so overdone and with her various incarnations proving capable enough that they may as well either make her either a playable character or at least a significant NPC in whatever conflict's going on, like if Majora's Mask had her in it but didn't rewrite Majora's plan.

Spirit Tracks actually puts Zelda on par with Link in the adventure, they're always working together to solve puzzles and fight the enemies (even though Link does do the majority of the fighting). Together with Skyward Sword the series has definitely taken some steps in a direction I like.

 

[Askherserenity]

Actually thought the thread was going to be about an actual salon with some anti Zelda propaganda pasted on the walls or something...

 

[kittens]

Those critiques hold a lot of merit. Keep in mind that you can like something and still have concerns about it. I was actually playing Twilight Princess just ten minutes ago, and while playing I was thinking about how the representations of indigenous Americans in the game seem to be partially based on the "noble savage" archetype that's all too common in the United States. I thought that while also thinking, "Wow, this art is fantastic."

It's important that we acknowledge racist or otherwise oppressive elements in games, perhaps especially the games we consider our favorites.