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Salon does not like the Legend of Zelda, nope sir, it doesn't.
- Thread starter Tripon
- Start date
MarkMclovin
Member
If you're looking for it, you'll find it everywhere.
What an idiot.
What an idiot.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I don't think anything of Salon one way or the other, and the thread title is misleading.
But the article really does come across as trying so hard it reads like parody. When it gets to Lon Lon Ranch, especially. What would this person say about The Lion King?
I recall this point. I have to wonder if it's stretching to read sexist attitudes into a plot point, because the actual thought seems to be "disguised person everybody is trying to kidnap removes disguise, is spotted, and then kidnapped".
The speed at which it happens could be seen as comedic, but the story beats are pretty much just there to move the game along as directly as possible.
But the article really does come across as trying so hard it reads like parody. When it gets to Lon Lon Ranch, especially. What would this person say about The Lion King?
I recall this point. I have to wonder if it's stretching to read sexist attitudes into a plot point, because the actual thought seems to be "disguised person everybody is trying to kidnap removes disguise, is spotted, and then kidnapped".
The speed at which it happens could be seen as comedic, but the story beats are pretty much just there to move the game along as directly as possible.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
I find Social Justice Warriors use of the word "problematic" very problematic. So problematic.
Problematic!
I was wondering when the new social justice and gaming story was going to pop up, they are always entertaining, but this one is too good to be true.
Problematic!
I was wondering when the new social justice and gaming story was going to pop up, they are always entertaining, but this one is too good to be true.
If you are using the term Social Justice Warriors you may want to do a lot of introspection.
cubicle47b
Member
Would you say that the use of SJW is "problematic"?
Indeed.
Because at base of it all, people using terms like social justice warriors like that , are complaining that people want equal representation in the media.
You aren't the good guy.
This article could be garbage, but if you arguing about social justice warriors rather than the merits of the article itself, you got problems.
The sexist part is just plain wrong. There are plenty of strong female characters in Zelda game.. Heck, just out of the seven sages, five are women (Saria, Ruto, Impa, Naboru, Zelda vs Rauru, Darunia).Plus, throughout the series, Link has his ass saved multiple times by women. Honestly, though, the entire thing reads like a terribly uninformed newspiece - like someone took a glance at the games without actually taking their time to delve in. Pure sensationalism.
LOL. Sooo many people haven't even beat the game it seems. Here is a hint, go look up the ending on youtube and come back, see if that opinion still holds.
cubicle47b
Member
Yeah, the "you aren't the good guy" line is why some people don't like social justice warriors. For me it's about the mentality, not about what they're trying to achieve. I'm completely for better representation in the media. However, the Tumblr crowd appears to look for ways to be morally outraged so they can feel superior to other people and often go out of their way to find things to be outraged about. They make the people they disagree with into enemies and even their treatment of "allies" is pretty disgusting.
I find most feminists to be really cool people, SJWs are a different breed.
In my personal experience, those people do not want equal representation in the media. They want superior representation of whatever group they are campaigning for and inferior representation for the current "norm". In other words regular people who don't really have a lot of objectionable views and even try to be good people are told that "they aren't the good guy". That is "problematic".
Southside Jim
Neo Member
Wait until this guy discovers Custer's Revenge.
ridethepiggy
Banned
Stupid iphone spell check :/ but yes Nintendo has MASSACRED the series.
In Spirit Tracks she wears a suit of heavy plate and wields a sword roughly the size of Link. She has magic and arrows, sure, but that's not really the whole extent of her arsenal anymore than Link, who also has arrows and magic.
Foxtastical
Member
I'm fine with this type of critique. It gets quite silly at points, but I really enjoy this kind of stuff. It's pseudo-academic stuff. Especially lines like this:
"The wistful choice in music isn’t surprising, given widespread yearning by industrialized human populations for a recently abandoned, romanticized pastoralism."
I mean, not only does this type of writing make me laugh a bit, you really need to cite a source for a claim like "given widespread yearning by industrialized human populations for a recently abandoned, romanticized pastoralism."
"The wistful choice in music isn’t surprising, given widespread yearning by industrialized human populations for a recently abandoned, romanticized pastoralism."
I mean, not only does this type of writing make me laugh a bit, you really need to cite a source for a claim like "given widespread yearning by industrialized human populations for a recently abandoned, romanticized pastoralism."
The Gerudo combining racial stereotypes with the plot role of xenophobic marauding fantasy race is kind of unfortunate. Nintendo seems to have realized this, since that depiction didn't really resurface in subsequent games other than Majora's Mask.
On the sexism front, I think the author is too quick to dismiss the fact that Zelda is independent, not in need of reach, and several steps ahead of Link for a huge portion of the game. Most subsequent games in the series do at least as well, if not better, especially Wind Waker, where
Overall, this is more about the classic fantasy tropes that anything, and the author doesn't give the series enough credit for how it subverts them.
On the sexism front, I think the author is too quick to dismiss the fact that Zelda is independent, not in need of reach, and several steps ahead of Link for a huge portion of the game. Most subsequent games in the series do at least as well, if not better, especially Wind Waker, where
Zelda is even more independent and pretty much the deuteragonist pic the game, and all of the "damsels in distress" actually are helpless little girls.
Overall, this is more about the classic fantasy tropes that anything, and the author doesn't give the series enough credit for how it subverts them.
DesertEagle
Neo Member
Contemporary journalism?
Is there even anything in the game that shows the cows aren't just kept for milk but also for meat? I don't recall seeing anything like that in OoT...
hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka
Member
The thread title and article don't match up. I got baited. Sounds like the writer thinks Ocarina of Time is good but it has things he doesn't like. Hmm, sounds like every opinion about every game.
fabricated backlash
Member
I have a huge problem with this kind of pseudo intellectual rubbish, mainly because people who read it and don't know any better might be impressed by the big words and assume that the absolute drivel in these articles actually presents an informed or even worthwhile analysis, other than a self congratulatory manifest of how amazingly progressive the author is.
Hang out with more people
Not trying to be rude, but they aren't the good guy in the situation. Sometimes truth hurts, you are arguing for the disproportionate representation of different groups in media to stay as is . Which is oppressive , racist and a slew of other things. You aren't the good guy.
Why baby people.
Despite what the internet may tell you tumblr is not a single entity. Anyways about the " you aren't the good guy " line. Its true, they are not the good guys.
Truth , epically introspective truth , hurts. I have to live with the truth that I live in a world where people value not being able to think about things or maintaining some status quo rather than everyone getting equal treatment. If they feel bad about that line, tough shit.
I consider myself a "social justice warrior", but this article has huge flaws and stretches quite a lot in order to sell its point.
Whether the article is well written or not, the race discussion is interesting. The criminalization of brown skinned individuals is prominent in alot of media. Not saying it was inherently wrong in this case, and in my opinion the gerudu aren't inherently evil, but it's not new to peg the bad guy amongst the brown ones and the good guys amongst the more fair.
And i know the sexist is a trigger word now a days, and people hate it, but the damsel in distress thing isn't exactly the best. I personally would like to move away from it. And I think our media would benefit from it too
And i know the sexist is a trigger word now a days, and people hate it, but the damsel in distress thing isn't exactly the best. I personally would like to move away from it. And I think our media would benefit from it too
VeryGooster
Banned
My initial thought reading this. I'm sure there's a really good discussion to be had on the politics of Ocarina of Time, let alone The Legend of Zelda as a franchise, but this reads like a high-school essay whose only research was watching Anita Sarkeesian's videos.
WrenchNinja
Member
The only time Zelda was a good, interesting non-damsel in distress character who needed saving was when she was dead.
Why can't my mouth hold all these words? Please slow down with your stuffing of them in it. You don't know me, you don't know anything about me, which is why this comes off as super patronizing. I am all for equal and fair representation of all kinds of people. I think everyone deserves a good shot at life regardless of their gender/sexuality/color. I'm of Middle Eastern descent myself. That being said, I don't think demonizing majority groups who do not actively seek to hurt or oppress or misrepresent minorities is not correct. The problem with such "SJW"s is that they treat every white/male/cis person as if they are directly oppressing minorities, aka they are committing prejudice towards them because of the color of their skin/gender/sexuality. Not every white male is hell personified. Thinking so is "problematic" and will lose you "allies".
Agreed. This sort of thing isn't going away, so it's best that we learn to have the ensuing discussions in a sane, reasonable way instead of flying off the handle. (Doesn't mean that all criticisms are instantly valid and well founded, obviously.)
I mean you , in the sense of the hypothetical person, not you in the sense you of you.
Sorry bout that.
I am also brown, well half brown anyway brown and black.
fabricated backlash
Member
Epically introspective truth...
sheesh man get off the high horse for a minute, the air up there doesn't do you any favors.
Cows in Zelda are able to talk if you have the correct mask. What he's saying is that eating a talking animal create a ethical problem, since people kill them and eat them. So it's a slave/owner relationship at this point and no longer a Farm animal/farmer relationship.
It's not like you simply drank the cow milk, but we kill them for steak, so it's not a parasitic relation (but the cow would die if the milk is not removed, because the human created cows by cross breeding, but hey).
But it is in the scientific term. There is tons of Parasite that kill his host for what ever purposes (Food, protection, breeding ground, large enough to go in the water). Most of the Zombie parasites require the host to die for example.
I am a black/arabic man who just wants equal treatment for all in the media. What high horse? You pissed people wanted to be treated equal?
Does my unwillingness to accept the unfair treatment that me and others have been getting in the media make you mad, sorry give I dont a shit.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
In order for Zelda to truly live, Zelda must die!
That was however the best use of Zelda to date.
Absolutely. People are often wrong in their analysis, but the knee-jerk responses we often see, that it's "just a game" or that people are "reading too much into it" aren't helpful. If games are a serious medium, they'll be treated as a serious medium, which means analysis of themes, tropes, and messaging.
I think it's healthy and a sign that video games are finally reaching a wider audience, including those who take them seriously as pieces of art.
Maybe you can start getting this equal treatment by not using loaded terms like "the good guy" and telling people that their narrow-mindedness is due to a lack of friends? Maybe instead you should make arguments based solely on the merit of arguments and not presume to know the character of the person you're arguing with?
Even if you categorically disagree with the other guy and think he's full of it, telling him to get out and socialize more is a pretty cheap reply.
GetemMa
Member
The LOTZ treats black/arabic men unequally?
I didn't realize they were putting that foot forward in any of the games. Good to know!
I kind of feel the opposite. Well, with regards to the article anyway. The ensuing discussion, perhaps, but the article feels like it's exaggerating every issue to the point that it obstructs any discussion of these elements, rather than facilitates. It doesn't really seem to be taking anything seriously at all, especially with that bit about cows.
At the same time, they're also a very young medium and one has to take context into account. Part of the problem with this article is the way it excoriates Zelda for *really* common fantasy tropes that are still getting a ton of mileage in other media. Their implications are equally bad, but that means the author should criticize Zelda for relying on cliches rather than having some especially malicious message, which it really doesn't.
1) If you are arguing for the continued misrepresentation of groups in the media. Then tough shit, you aren't the good guy. I'm sorry that makes you sad. You aren't you are arguing for a bad thing. I can't dress it up.
2) I told that guy to hang out with more people because and I quote
Maybe that person should hang out with more people, to meet people who do not think like that. Because there are plenty.
I was talking about things in general rather than LOZ. I thought that was obvious, apparently it wasn't...even though I never specifically said legend of zelda.
" Talking about things that may matter makes my head hurt, so instead of a charitable contribution like a criticism if I do not agree, let me ridicule this person for something that has no value in truth or in conversational weight whatsoever.
"
fabricated backlash
Member
You obviously do, and I find it unfortunate that you can't divorce your feelings from your replies. Then again, that is not always an easy thing, and I'm guilty of this myself at many points.
But come on.
Stop acting so fatalistic about this. You're projecting your grievances onto others by antagonizing them. I have nothing against fair representation, neither would I ever try to oppose that. I'm a creative person. The more influences, the better.
The high horse I was referring to was your attitude accusing others, including me of being against fair representation, or unable to see their own bias/agenda, because apparently only you with your "epically introversive truth" could see us for what we are. That's condescending and insulting, nothing more. You made no point other than lashing out at others with no regard for their point or argument.
Again, I don't want to trivialize your emotional investment in this matter. But I'd advise you to stop making blanket assumptions about others, based on that.
EatinOlives
Member
I really wish this "X videogame is classist/sexist/racist/all three!!!" gaming "journalism" fad would go away now.
SolidSnakex
Member
How many gamers really care if games are considered art or if they're even taken seriously by people that aren't gamers? Ueda's game are referred to as art more than any other, and he doesn't even believe they are. He says that he's just making a product for people to buy.