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[Pau]

There are already plenty of diverse depictions of women in the medium, diversity is just a pretense since as we've seen repeatedly even if there is diversity you find something to complain about since in such opinionated groups the No true Scotsman fallacy is always brought up.

So the only natural conclusion then is that what your group wants is homogenization only that's not what will happen. Since you keep politicizing the medium more and more two opposite sides equally radical will arise like it always happens in situations where one group bullies a community and these two sides will do more derailing in this forum than trolls ever managed to do.

Really? If there are so many diverse depictions of women, what about non-sexualized female characters that I can play as that aren't a gender swap ala Shepherd? Don't worry, take your time finding examples. (Hint: we might have a different definition of "plenty.")

How is talking about this derailing this forum? The discussion is about video games. If you don't like this particular part of the discussion, you are free to ignore the threads.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

By this type of analysis I mean an analysis of race and gender in video games. And if Zelda is one of the more liberal presentations of women in video games, yikes.

But how isn't she? You'd be hard-pressed to find many female video game characters who manage to remain both capable and asexualized. Hell, you'd be hard-pressed to find many in any medium.

 

[Pau]

But how isn't she? You'd be hard-pressed to find many female characters who manage to remain both capable and asexualized. Hell, you'd be hard-pressed to find many in any medium.

Capable and still manages to get herself captured in nearly every damn game.

I don't think she's a particularly bad character and they have tried a bit more with her recently, but I think the medium can do better.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Capable and still manages to get herself captured in nearly every damn game.

I don't think she's a particularly bad character and they have tried a bit more with her recently, but I think the medium can do better.

But in Ocarina of Time? The time she spends being kidnapped is rather small.

 

[Eusis]

There are already plenty of diverse depictions of women in the medium, diversity is just a pretense since as we've seen repeatedly even if there is diversity you usually find something to complain about since the No true Scotsman fallacy is a favorite of such opinionated groups.

So the only natural conclusion then is that we can only appease your group through homogenization of both speech and art, only that's not what will happen. Since you keep politicizing the medium more and more two opposite sides equally radical will arise like it always happens in situations where one group bullies a community and these two sides will do more derailing in this forum than trolls ever managed to do.

There's being so careful to avoid offense that you end up with bland, homogenized works, then there's never addressing underlying problems that don't really need to be there and seem like they SHOULD be excised going by the rest of the work's content, and Zelda's definitely in the latter. Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask did fine without going the kidnapping route for the climax (think there was an incident earlier in LA admittedly, but with a character that didn't have any remarkable traits except perhaps

Spoiler

really being a seagull or at least ending up as one

) and with Zelda proven more and more capable it starts to stick out badly, it's not like she's just the princess we read about in the story blurb or whatever anymore.

Capable and still manages to get herself captured in nearly every damn game.

I don't think she's a particularly bad character and they have tried a bit more with her recently, but I think the medium can do better.

Yeah, it really doesn't matter how you try to improve her if in the end she still falls into these same pitfalls. It's almost like looking at, I dunno, a feature set rather than paying attention to the narrative arch, and for how much they empower her the narrative arch almost invariably remains the same. Spirit Tracks was probably the closest to an exception and I have yet to beat that, but even then it's specifically because her body got snatched away with her spirit basically haunting Link.

But in Ocarina of Time? The time she spends being kidnapped is rather small.

It still happens, and at the climax no less. It's not like, say, saving her just as you enter the future then she aids you for the rest of the way or anything (though that'd have wrecked the big twist.)

 

[Smash]

Really? If there are so many diverse depictions of women, what about non-sexualized female characters that I can play as that aren't a gender swap ala Shepherd? Don't worry, take your time finding examples. (Hint: we might have a different definition of "plenty.")

How is talking about this derailing this forum? The discussion is about video games. If you don't like this particular part of the discussion, you are free to ignore the threads.

I already know how the discussion will go. First I'll explain that males are also very sexualized in every medium yet men don't have a problem with it, then you'll use the usual nonsensical excuse that it's a male power fantasy and then I'll post this.

And since the no true scotsman always applies with your group, even though there are plenty such characters I simply cannot find a character you won't consider sexualized because you'll always find some detail that annoyed you. Not to mention that your group tends to focus on appearance instead of personality where you should really focus on if, as your group claims, you want to provide better female examples to young girls. Call me crazy but I always thought clothes don't make the woman.

 

[Pau]

I already know how the discussion will go. First I'll explain that males are also very sexualized in every medium yet men don't have a problem with it, then you'll use the usual nonsensical excuse that that's a male power fantasy and then I'll post this.

And since the no true scotsman always applies even though there are plenty such characters I simply cannot find a character you won't consider sexualized because you'll always find some detail that annoyed you. Not to mention that your group tends to focus on appearance instead of personality where you should really focus on if, as your group claims, you want to provide better female examples to young girls. Call me crazy but I always thought clothes don't make the woman.

Looks like you're not even interested in having the discussion if you supposedly know what I'm already going to reply, so why are you even bothering to respond?

 

[Smash]

Looks like you're not even interested in having the discussion if you supposedly know what I'm already going to reply, so why are you even bothering to respond?

I'm already participating in the discussion, just expediting things since I've seen you have this discussion literally dozens if not hundreds of times here. Were you not going to use the male power fantasy talking point once again?

 

[Pau]

I'm already participating in the discussion, just expediting things since I've seen you have this discussion literally dozens if not hundreds of times here. Were you not going to use the male power fantasy talking point once again?

Actually, no I wasn't. I was going to mention that while men are sexualized, they aren't to the same extent as women, and do get to appear more as non-sexualized entities. And that there's a thing called hyper-sexualization.

But hey, if you want to use the images of men in what is literally women's porn as an equivalent for the sexualization of women in the whole medium of video games, be my guest. You might want to look up the phrase "false equivalence" though.

 

[boiled goose]

In this case the only point that I think has a little merit is the portrayal of the different races in the game, but in the end the analysis is quite shallow and misses the mark. total click bait.

Zelda is a game about stereotypes and popular art tropes. The hylians are not white because they are good, they are white because they are inspired from the elves of western fantasy.

Of course it is clear that the Gerudos are inspired from middle eastern and gypsy cultures. Playing the game, it was not clear that the gerudo's were 'bad'. In fact their culture is very rarely discussed outside of the male every 1000 years or whatever, which that does have some sexist connotations, as the male is born to rule over the females, just because he is male. That said, if one gender was born only once a millennium it seems reasonable that the event would be somewhat special and the male would at the very least become a celebrity.

The depiction is not xenophobic or racist, but rather an exotization of the middle eastern culture, almost from a colonial british perspective.

of course the whole game follows the whole damsel in distress trope, and while Zelda is vulnerable at times, she is a pretty good character overall. She is wise and strong and brave even as a child. Sheik is pretty cool. She helps defeat Ganondorf.

There are actually a lot of different female characters in the game. Impa is depicted as a strong and cold warrior while Ruto is the obsessed school girl.

There is certainly a lot to say about Zelda, but this article misses the mark for me.

 

[LeeRoyBrown]

his.

What he meant to say was that person.

Did the author of this really have problems, with a small girl not being strong enough to defend herself against a Dark Lord with magical powers...

The author is right, Zelda should have just slapped him down, and the story should have ended just there. As Ganon rides Zelda out of the castle, Ganon should fall off his horse and just die. And then the credits roll.

Greatest game of all time!

 

[hey_monkey]

I already know how the discussion will go. First I'll explain that males are also very sexualized in every medium yet men don't have a problem with it, then you'll use the usual nonsensical excuse that it's a male power fantasy and then I'll post this.

Y'know, I'm not a romance novel reader, but that makes me wonder who designs romance novel covers more often: men or women.

Derail over, back to regularly scheduled whatever.

 

[Pau]

Y'know, I'm not a romance novel reader, but that makes me wonder who designs romance novel covers more often: men or women.

Derail over, back to regularly scheduled whatever.

Or you know, the fact that romance novels are porn and not indicative of the depiction of men across the medium.

 

[boiled goose]

Or you know, the fact that romance novels are porn and not indicative of the depiction of men across the medium.

Pau, it is not worth the effort. If someone is arguing that men are just as sexualized as women and that it has the same impact it is not worth arguing with them. Their perspective is already too warped. One of the worst things about neogaf is pseudo intellectual males unable to see things from a different perspective. Happens in every topic related to racism or sexism.

Smash is already convinced that his 'males are also sexualized' line is somehow a sticking point for the argument, when you have already pointed out that while that is true, men are depicted in many different ways while females are sexualized much more frequently. Makes sense and is quite simple really. Yet, he doesn't even get it.

 

[shanshan310]

I already know how the discussion will go. First I'll explain that males are also very sexualized in every medium yet men don't have a problem with it, then you'll use the usual nonsensical excuse that it's a male power fantasy and then I'll post this.

And since the no true scotsman always applies with your group, even though there are plenty such characters I simply cannot find a character you won't consider sexualized because you'll always find some detail that annoyed you. Not to mention that your group tends to focus on appearance instead of personality where you should really focus on if, as your group claims, you want to provide better female examples to young girls. Call me crazy but I always thought clothes don't make the woman.

I don't think hashing it out against a straw man "wins" you an argument with Pau, especially with that image that doesn't disprove male power fantasy anyway.

Who is "Pau's group" supposed to be then? Do I get to be a part of this cool secret posse?

 

[Smash]

Actually, no I wasn't. I was going to mention that while men are sexualized, they aren't to the same extent as women, and do get to appear more as non-sexualized entities. And that there's a thing called hyper-sexualization.

But hey, if you want to use the images of men in what is literally women's porn as an equivalent for the sexualization of women in the whole medium of video games, be my guest. You might want to look up the phrase "false equivalence" though.

The point of that image obviously isn't to prove that men are sexualized as much as women, it's to dispel the ridiculous male power fantasy talking point that assumes without any proof that tough male characters aren't catered to women audiences because women aren't attracted to them.

 

[Eusis]

While David Willis seemed to be missing the mark in his comic, those covers are a far cry from the likes of Kratos or Arkham Batman.

... Frankly his depiction of Batman there was just kind of creepy PERIOD.

 

[shanshan310]

The point of that image obviously isn't to prove that men are sexualized as much as women, it's to dispel the ridiculous male power fantasy talking point that assumes without any proof that tough male characters aren't catered to women audiences because women aren't attracted to them.

It doesn't dispel it at all. Yes, some women are attracted to buff chests. Does that suddenly make all fit male characters designed to be sexy to women? That a lot of games targets young men, the oft quoted "core gamers" is not a new idea. Why would they be creating characters in these games specifically to appeal to a demographic they don't target because "girls don't play games"?

 

[Pau]

Pau, it is not worth the effort. If someone is arguing that men are just as sexualized as women and that it has the same impact it is not worth arguing with them. Their perspective is already too warped. One of the worst things about neogaf is pseudo intellectual males unable to see things from a different perspective. Happens in every topic related to racism or sexism.

Smash is already convinced that his 'males are also sexualized' line is somehow a sticking point for the argument, when you have already pointed out that while that is true, men are depicted in many different ways while females are sexualized much more frequently. Makes sense and is quite simple really. Yet, he doesn't even get it.

I'm an optimist who thinks people can learn through discussion, but I guess that requires acknowledging that you're talking to a person and not a straw man.

I don't think hashing it out against a straw man "wins" you an argument with Pau, especially with that image that doesn't disprove male power fantasy anyway.

Who is "Pau's group" supposed to be then? Do I get to be a part of this cool secret posse?

Lieutenant Shan! :3

The point of that image obviously isn't to prove that men are sexualized as much as women, it's to dispel the ridiculous male power fantasy talking point that assumes without any proof that these characters aren't catered to women audiences because women aren't attracted to them.

Good thing I never used that argument in this thread. Now would you rather respond to my points or the points you think I'm supposed to make to fit the narrative of how you want this discussion to go?

 

[Kamion]

Okay, point taken on the Samus thing... I think I just never realized it up to the point the zero suit was introduced.

Oh, younger me.

 

[Smash]

It doesn't dispel it at all. Yes, some women are attracted to buff chests. Does that suddenly make all fit male characters designed to be sexy to women? That a lot of games targets young men, the oft quoted "core gamers" is not a new idea. Why would they be creating characters in these games specifically to appeal to a demographic they don't target because "girls don't play games"?

Using your logic in the first part of your post about buff chests I could argue that you have no proof that female characters are targeted to males either. Your basic argument then comes down to this: It targets men because men are the core audience. So who's fault is that? And based on that way of thinking should males start complaining that chick flicks are sexualizing men?

Good thing I never used that argument in this thread. Now would you rather respond to my points or the points you think I'm supposed to make to fit the narrative of how you want this discussion to go?

You seemed more than happy to argue against the image when you thought you had a valid criticism against it.

 

[shanshan310]

Using your logic in the first part of your post about buff chests I could argue that you have no proof that female characters are targeted to males either. Your basic argument then comes down to this: It targets men because men are the core audience. So who's fault is that? And based on that way of thinking should males start complaining that chick flicks are sexualizing men?

I'll be honest, I don't want to argue with you because you came into this thread trying to argue this very point and have obviously already made up your mind. I will say though you have misread my argument and my logic does not at all follow down the path you've created for it. Sorry, but I'm pulling out of this one. I don't want to fuel a derail. Agree to disagree.

 

[Pau]

You seemed more than happy to argue against the image when you thought you had a valid criticism against it.

You mean the image you brought up as a point against a claim I never made? I was wondering how the hell it was at all relevant to what I actually said.

 

[NaviLink]

This article made me think "Do you know context? You should try it sometime, it's pretty good." Analyzing a 15 years old game with the views of 2013 is obviously not gonna work.

 

[Pau]

This article made me think "Do you know context? You should try it sometime, it's pretty good." Analyzing a 15 years old game with the views of 2013 is obviously not gonna work.

This is a pretty common way of going back and looking at older media. Just because Birth of Nation was made when it was more acceptable for white people to be racist doesn't suddenly mean the movie isn't pretty fucking racist.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

I hate when people use the world view of a SJW and apply it to games. Fact is gameplay (which Zelda has in droves) will forever be more important than the game's views on sex, class, and race. That's because it's a game.

 

[RoombaDance]

I'd humor it if it was well written, but I don't think this would get a passing grade as a college freshman essay.

It's pretty funny though.

Ghost-written by Patricia Hernandez.

Oh piss off, Patricia is a much better writer than that. Seriously, I don't care if you agree with her articles, but lay off her.

 

[zeldablue]

OoT had enough sketchy race issues to be banned in several middle eastern countries...

Whoops.

With that said, I think both Majoras Mask and Twilight Princess have a lot of cool things to say about racism and xenophobia. Twilight Princess in particular is all about two races having misunderstood each other thoroughly. The relationship between Link and Midna reflects two "racist" characters learning to love and understand each other's perspective.

Majoras Mask is nifty because Link takes the form of other races and is bluntly discriminated against depending solely on his appearance. Sometimes he's even called a freak and is refused service. It's kind of a smack in the face for the player and makes them greatful that they can take off this mask and turn back into a more acceptable form...though that's just not true for others. One of the few games around to make you feel the cold hatred of discrimination.

And OoT has awesome female characters...so that's that.

 

[Ikael]

At this point, "because of racism" has already become a meme among my friends whenever we discuss whatever we find unpleasant, replacing "thanks, Obama". Good job, Salon, Mother Jones and the likes.

 

[Eusis]

I hate when people use the world view of a SJW and apply it to games. Fact is gameplay (which Zelda has in droves) will forever be more important than the game's views on sex, class, and race. That's because it's a game.

While the article seriously overanalyzes some things (what the fuck was up with that Lon Lon Ranch diatribe?) being that kind of entertainment isn't a get out of jail free card. Hell, the increasing narrative focus of Zelda puts it under greater scrutiny than Mario if anything, we have an increasingly developed history that nevertheless resorts to some of the same cliches.

And Nintendo doesn't seem wholly unaware: the Garudo failed to come back outside of Ganondorf (though that implies sweeping a problem under the rug rather than properly addressing it) and Ganondorf himself had his skin tone go from a natural dark color to a more and more inhumanly dark one.

And specifically with Zelda: frankly, isn't it just tiring to go through the same motions? Link's Awakening and Majora's Mask broke out of that mold, even if they don't want to try going further than they already have for Zelda they could at least sweep her aside and avoid the kidnapping trope, sometimes it's just painfully contrived (ergo my Phantom Hourglass complaint.)

 

[lefantome]

Is Avatar racist because the bad guys are the americans of the future?

I didn't play the game so much but it seems forced racism.

 

[pizza dog]

Using your logic in the first part of your post about buff chests I could argue that you have no proof that female characters are targeted to males either. Your basic argument then comes down to this: It targets men because men are the core audience. So who's fault is that? And based on that way of thinking should males start complaining that chick flicks are sexualizing men?

Get over this line, it is totally without merit and it isn't sincere. Just pop over to OT some time and see at any given moment four or five "this babe is a hot babe check out hot pix" threads going. Take an opportunity to learn. You've got people sharing their genuine experience of the world, which is alien to your own. Stop trying to invalidate that. Try and empathize a little.

You're being close-minded and counter productive. You're putting words in Pau's mouth and setting up an adversarial situation where she's just trying to share with you about something you clearly don't have experience with or access to.

 

[Smash]

Get over this line, it is totally without merit and it isn't sincere. Just pop over to OT some time and see at any given moment four or five "this babe is a hot babe check out hot pix" threads going. Take an opportunity to learn. You've got people sharing their genuine experience of the world, which is alien to your own. Stop trying to invalidate that. Try and empathize a little.

You're being close-minded and counter productive. You're putting words in Pau's mouth and setting up an adversarial situation where she's just trying to share with you about something you clearly don't have experience with or access to.

I will never empathize with a group that complains about and usually wants to censor people that dared to say that they're attracted to the other gender. This is bordering 1984 levels of sexual repression.

And I'm not putting words in Pau's mouth, all you have to do is search power fantasy and Pau as a member to realize she's used the talking point repeatedly.

 

[Karkador]

The point of that image obviously isn't to prove that men are sexualized as much as women, it's to dispel the ridiculous male power fantasy talking point that assumes without any proof that tough male characters aren't catered to women audiences because women aren't attracted to them.

It still stands that the only way the argument in your image works is if women's erotic literature was the entirety of the medium, when it's not even the entirety of the genre of erotic literature. Many people have tried their best to point out how limited videogame narratives and designs are in comparison to other mediums.

But obtuse arguments seems to be your particular way of doing things, so of course you'd possibly think that the cars in gran turismo are getting women off, too, because how do we know they're not, am I right?

 

[Pau]

I will never empathize with a group that complains about and usually wants to censor people that dared to say that they're attracted to the other gender. This is bordering 1984 levels of sexual repression.

And I'm not putting words in Pau's mouth, all you have to do is search power fantasy and Pau as a member to realize she's used the talking point repeatedly.

Actually, I tried to do this very thing because I don't typically use the argument and shocker, I couldn't find any results. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else?

Oh wait, I got a result where I actually mention the phrase and say a male power fantasy doesn't have to be inherently sexist. Nothing like what you say I go off on about repeatedly.

So yeah, next time don't be so fucking eager to put words in my mouth.

 

[shanshan310]

I will never empathize with a group that complains about and usually wants to censor people that dared to say that they're attracted to the other gender. This is bordering 1984 levels of sexual repression.

I have never seen anyone say that people who are attracted to someone should be censored, on this site or otherwise.

 

[Pau]

I have never seen anyone say that people who are attracted to someone should be censored, on this site or otherwise.

I also don't see these posts where I "repeatedly" use this argument he's made up, so clearly he's not beholden to this reality.

 

[Smash]

Actually, I tried to do this very thing because I don't typically use the argument and shocker, I couldn't find any results. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else?

Oh wait, I got a result where I actually mention the phrase and say a male power fantasy doesn't have to be inherently sexist. Nothing like what you say I go off on about repeatedly.

So yeah, next time don't be so fucking eager to put words in my mouth.

I sincerely apologize for that actually, I must confuse you with someone else, I was certain it was you. So what is your reason for complaining for sexualization if it happens for both genders?

I have never seen anyone say that people who are attracted to someone should be censored, on this site or otherwise.

This is the post I was replying to:

Just pop over to OT some time and see at any given moment four or five "this babe is a hot babe check out hot pix" threads going.

 

[shanshan310]

This is the post I was replying to:

The sexualisation of women all the time being frustrating and wanting to make people aware of it =/= telling people to stop being attracted to other people.

 

[Smash]

The sexualisation of women all the time being frustrating and wanting to make people aware of it =/= telling people to stop being attracted to other people.

No matter how you frame it, the gist of the matter is that they're being "frustrated" because men dare to discuss about their attraction to the other gender. Yeah, that's fucked up.

 

[Pau]

So what is your reason for complaining for sexualization if it happens for both genders?

That there should be more diversity in female characters. (I'd say the same for male.) I mentioned it in one of my first responses to you, which you seemed to not have read but still responded to: "Actually, no I wasn't. I was going to mention that while men are sexualized, they aren't to the same extent as women, and do get to appear more as non-sexualized entities. And that there's a thing called hyper-sexualization."

That's it. Not every character has to be sexualized, and it seems like we won't agree with what counts as hypersexualization or hell even sexualization. I've never once argued for absolutely no sexualized female characters (which would be dumb considering some of my favorite female characters are sexualized), just that more diversity in the depictions would be nice. No homogenization here. That's exactly what I'm fighting against.

I'm glad you apologized, but honestly, if you were so eager to jump down my throat and ignore what I was actually saying, I'm not too inclined to get into a discussion with you about this so I'll answer your question and leave it at that. I'm sure other people can go over the points with you if you so desire.

 

[McLovin]

They should make link black and all the bad guys white. Then it wouldn't be racist.
/sarcasm

 

[Ikael]

The sexualisation of women all the time being frustrating and wanting to make people aware of it =/= telling people to stop being attracted to other people.

I can understand that the "damn she's hot" comments can get lame and tiring, but other than that, I don't get the whole "stop sexualization" initiative, as if sex would be something worth of stopping or hiding.

We humans are sexual creatures, it is not all that we are, but it is surely part of what we are. The attraction that you can elicit towards the opposite sex it is a trait of the individual pretty much like intelligence, strenght or charisma. I see nothing wrong with "sexualizing" other person and acknowleding his or her looks.

 

[NaviLink]

This is a pretty common way of going back and looking at older media. Just because Birth of Nation was made when it was more acceptable for white people to be racist doesn't suddenly mean the movie isn't pretty fucking racist.

Sure. But you can't just apply the same type of analysis we have in 2013 to a game of 1998. Context matters a whole lot. For example it's a game made in Japan by japanese developers. Their society and views are quite different from western countries. Their knowledge and understanding of the rest of the world is (or was, in 1998) not as good as western countries, both because they live on an island and are quite protectionnary, and don't speak a lot of english for most of them (but that's changing).

Besides, I disagree with the article. OoT is far from being racist or sexist, IMO. You have completely different races in the game (not just skin colors, but different forms of intelligent life) living in the same world. One of the human tribes is female only. Impa is a badass. Zelda is only a damsel in distress for the last couple of hours of the game, she's Sheik for most of the time, and she helps you escape and fight during the last boss fight. She's far from helpless.

The author is just applying the same flawed analysis model Sarkeesian has been using in her videos, and he's making the same mistake by not putting things in context. It doesn't mean we have to say "oh that's normal" if there is something racist in a old game or movie or book, but it's important to understand why it was accepted at the time.

 

[shanshan310]

No matter how you frame it, the gist of the matter is that they're being "frustrated" because men dare to discuss about their attraction to the other gender. Yeah, that's fucked up.

Sorry, but that's not the case at all. I have no issue with men being attracted to women, or discussing it. But take that recent Scar Jo thread for example. It was a thread about her new movie, and by the third or forth post the thread had been derailed and the whole discussion was about her breasts. Her breasts are great, to be sure, but there is a person attached to them and there was a greater discussion to be had. It is about women being reduced to a sex object. In the case of games, it's about wanting the option to play a female character that isn't created for men to be attracted to. Not that men can't ogle women, not that there should be no sexy female characters, not that men can't be attracted to women.

I can understand that the "damn she's hot" comments can get lame and tiring, but other than that, I don't get the whole "stop sexualization" initiative, as if sex would be something worth of stopping or hiding.

We humans are sexual creatures, it is not all that we are, but it is surely part of what we are. The attraction that you can elicit towards the opposite sex it is a trait of the individual pretty much like intelligence, strenght or charisma. I see nothing wrong with "sexualizing" other person and acknowleding his or her looks.

No one is saying stop sexualising. I am saying, "stop ONLY sexualising".

 

[Smash]

That there should be more diversity in female characters. (I'd say the same for male.) I mentioned it in one of my first responses to you, which you seemed to not have read but still responded to: "Actually, no I wasn't. I was going to mention that while men are sexualized, they aren't to the same extent as women, and do get to appear more as non-sexualized entities. And that there's a thing called hyper-sexualization."

That's it. Not every character has to be sexualized, and it seems like we won't agree with what counts as hypersexualization or hell even sexualization. I've never once argued for absolutely no sexualized female characters (which would be dumb considering some of my favorite female characters are sexualized), just that more diversity in the depictions would be nice. No homogenization here. That's exactly what I'm fighting against.

I'm glad you apologized, but honestly, if you were so eager to jump down my throat and ignore what I was actually saying, I'm not too inclined to get into a discussion with you about this so I'll answer your question and leave it at that. I'm sure other people can go over the points with you if you so desire.

This thing called hyper-sexualization is another buzzword that assumes that there's an objective meter everyone agrees on above which sexualization becomes "hyper". It seems though that meter isn't in agreement with the rest of society and it's controlled only by feminists. And while we're at it, why are you so interested to repress sexuality instead of increasing it in the males to even things out. Why is your movement so interested in sexual repression in general?

 

[shanshan310]

The thing called hyper-sexualization is another buzzword that assumes that there's an objective meter everyone agrees on above which sexualization becomes "hyper". It seems that meter isn't in agreement with the rest of society and it's controlled only by feminists. And while we're at it, why are you so interested to repress sexuality instead of increasing it in the males instead to even things out. Why is your movement so interested in sexual repression in general?

Calling everything a buzz word doesn't make its meaning any less legitimate.

Again, there is no attempt at sexual oppression. It seems like you've misinterpreted every response as being "oh no! Feminazi's trying to ban my porn!". SEX IS GREAT. Representations of women that are not just sex would also be great. That is where we are trying to balance things.

 

[Shabutaro]

This thing called hyper-sexualization is another buzzword that assumes that there's an objective meter everyone agrees on above which sexualization becomes "hyper". It seems though that meter isn't in agreement with the rest of society and it's controlled only by feminists. And while we're at it, why are you so interested to repress sexuality instead of increasing it in the males to even things out. Why is your movement so interested in sexual repression in general?

Now I'm not the quoted poster youre teferring to obviously but after reading thier post it seemed apparent to me that they don't want "repression". They want more diverse female characters. Making men equally sexualized, would still leave the disproportionate amount of sexualized female characters for men. There should be more female characters who aren't just eye candy. Nothing wrong with eye candy. Nothing wrong with the inclusion of more men as eye candy. But we need to be able to create more women characters that are more than that.
( In my opinion, not your original quotes posters, preferably more playable non sexualized female characters, rather than strong just in the cast)

 

[Smash]

Sorry, but that's not the case at all. I have no issue with men being attracted to women, or discussing it. But take that recent Scar Jo thread for example. It was a thread about her new movie, and by the third or forth post the thread had been derailed and the whole discussion was about her breasts. Her breasts are great, to be sure, but there is a person attached to them and there was a greater discussion to be had. It is about women being reduced to a sex object. In the case of games, it's about wanting the option to play a female character that isn't created for men to be attracted to. Not that men can't ogle women, not that there should be no sexy female characters, not that men can't be attracted to women

Some of posts discuss how they find a female attractive in a movie, again nothing wrong with that. The discussion tends to go everywhere from the actress to every aspect of the movie including the male actor's appearance. You focus so much on a specific part that you forget that it's just some of the posts and thus the

No one is saying stop sexualising. I am saying, "stop ONLY sexualising".

Which is pure hyperbole.

 

[Karkador]

while we're at it, why are you so interested to repress sexuality instead of increasing it in the males to even things out. Why is your movement so interested in sexual repression in general?

I don't think that would ' even it out' or necessarily address the situation, but I'm not opposed to the idea of more men being more aware of their own sexuality (which is what I think you're saying)