The future changed, it doesn't mean they're all dead or non-existent. Ashi is gone because she literally wouldn't exist without Aku. The Scotsman, for example, is probably back alive since he was killed by Aku.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Samurai Jack Season 5 |OT| But Yeah, Im Thinking Im Back.
- Thread starter Xe4
- Start date
- Status
The future changed, it doesn't mean they're all dead or non-existent. Ashi is gone because she literally wouldn't exist without Aku. The Scotsman, for example, is probably back alive since he was killed by Aku.
Wouldn't you rather not exist if it meant untold trillions wouldn't have to suffer?
Arby 'n' the Chief
Member
Wait a minute... isn't Jack still immortal?
He will outlast the sun, the moon, the Earth and the stars.
He will be an eternal testament to humankind, proof of their existence in this entire universe.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
well.... at least we got an ending
Butterfly Effect, man. The people in the future only exist because of Aku's rule. His downfall in the past would change the course of history and those specific people in the future would not exist.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
"You're not my father, Aku!"
"lol jk I literally wouldn't exist without Aku" -disappears-
"lol jk I literally wouldn't exist without Aku" -disappears-
FF Seraphim
Member
The hell... I am happy for the end... but... god damn our man Jack needs true happiness!
Not necessarily. They could still exist, but in different circumstances. It depends entirely on how directly Aku affected their lineage. For example: if his actions resulted in two people getting together at some point in the Scotsman's family tree then he's gone, if not he's still there but slightly different to account for the changes in the past.
The more isolated the people in the future the more likely they are still there.
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
No, they wouldn't exist in that future. Under the conditions of that future, their parents and ancestors would likely have never met or bred unless those specific conditions were met. Aku's reign was part of that.
Technically speaking, I wouldn't have been born if my grandfather never came to America after World War 2. So yeah, I'd love to exist and insure that the future is way better than what occurred int he past.
Issue is that Aku's effect on the Earth and other planets is extremely significant, so it's not so simple. His removal will have devastating effects to how people's lineages went. Sure, not all of them will be effected, but I'm pretty sure the vast, vast majority will, even the Scotsman.
Aku ruled the entire planet that is a big change
ffejeromdiks
Banned
I'm shocked at the mixed reactions, i thought it was incredible. A perfect ending for Jack and Aku.
We can't really say that though. Aku's actions may not have played a part in some of those meetings. Yes, the effects will ripple out but the further from his direct actions you get the smaller the changes would naturally be.
It's not really something we could say with any certainty is all I'm saying.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Although the series finale felt incredibly rushed, I did think it was a great send off to the series. You have to give it to Aku for being able to toy with Jack even in defeat.
Ashi and trillions of the other people and ones Jack met and bonded with over his journey, never existed. It almost made me think the best thing to have done would be to kill Aku in the future and not the past.
I mean if it's "the Holocaust happens" or don't exist and prevent it. Prevent it Everytime
Aku didn't just control earth but seemingly every planet. The future that is Aku is awful.
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
Aku ruled over the entire planet and probably more with an iron fist. I mean hell, we had an entire episode dedicated to one of his old robot henchmen suppressing resistance forces. We also now know that he gave galactic criminals free reign to destroy residencies to claim as their own.
The chances are slim to none that these people will ever exist again.
I rather focus on the present and make sure such events never transpire again. Removing people from existence is no different then killing them in my eyes.
And yet it's not something that can be said with certainty due to how these things work. If none of those actions pushed two people together, or pulled them apart, then potentially a character could still exist in an altered state is what I'm saying.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
she didn't seem to suffer for it, just kind of suddenly realized "o, i have to not be a thing now" at a seemingly random time.
does jack even remember any of them if they never existed?
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
I prefer existence, I'd rather have the knowledge to prevent it from happening again. It is better to have experienced something and know the warning signs of it happening again than it is to let it happen unknowingly, in my eyes.
Then Samurai Jack isn't the show for you.
I was fan of the show since the the early 2000s, my main beef with the ending has nothing to do with him going to the past. The only issue I have with him going to the past was how badly it was handled and the time paradox it formed.
What I said was not related to my feelings on the show but to understand the view point some have when they say that Jack should have stayed in the future. It's the same personal view of how I would deal with a situation if I was given the chance. I would never go back and stop WW2 or anything because it would greatly effect history and change the present. For all I know, I could have created a more dangerous future. It's best to prevent the same things from happening in the future than the go back and change the present.
Hell, for all we know, Jack could have created an even worse future. What if the reason there were Aliens on Earth in the future was because Aku was able to conquer them before they conquered or destroyed Earth. Tell me, does that sound like a good future.
It was good for what it was, but barring a 1 hour/3-parter episode, it was going to feel horrendously rushed no matter what.
I feel like the Ashi thing makes less problems if they had just said she dies from having Aku be destroyed (and her being a part of him, dying with him) rather than time shenanigans. But honestly the tone of the show doesn't really make worrying about that sort of thing matter. I think the rushed pacing is the real problem for it feeling a bit of a let down and nothing much else.
I feel like the Ashi thing makes less problems if they had just said she dies from having Aku be destroyed (and her being a part of him, dying with him) rather than time shenanigans. But honestly the tone of the show doesn't really make worrying about that sort of thing matter. I think the rushed pacing is the real problem for it feeling a bit of a let down and nothing much else.
What paradox does it form? Ashi sticks around a bit but then stops existing, presumably like everyone else.
I don't think it was handled badly. Ashi realizes she has the power to fulfil Jack's goal, after 50 years of him struggling, and doesn't fuck around and helps him immediately. Was handled perfectly.
This show has always been fast and things happening and resolving. Dunno why people are upset about it now
And for all you know WW2 happening is the worst future, Jack for sure knows that Aku enslaved the universe, letting that happen and abandoning his goal to stop it from ever happening would be against his whole purpose and the shows purpose and be an all around dick move.
Is Aliens conquering earth worse than Aku conquering earth and every other planet? Doesn't make any sense. You can't get a worse future than Aku rules everyone and everything anywhere. Ever.
By the shows rules he. Is. The. Ultimate. Evil. Doesn't get worse.
I think, that because Samurai Jack was mostly a "kid's" show and they couldn't go full bore in showing it, you're forgetting that Aku is literally the embodiment of cosmic evil. In the show there isn't a worse outcome than him ruling the earth for thousands of years.
Paradox stuff I don't really care to pay much attention to whenever time travel is involved.
My take is that Aku's future was the "unnatural" future (because he had to strip Jack from the original timeline to create it in the first place) and Jack basically set things back to 'how they would have been' had things progressed normally.
Overall I think it was a decent ending, but the pacing definitely felt rushed in key places - which is a little more irritating when there was some unnecessary padding throughout the short 10 episode run.
My take is that Aku's future was the "unnatural" future (because he had to strip Jack from the original timeline to create it in the first place) and Jack basically set things back to 'how they would have been' had things progressed normally.
Overall I think it was a decent ending, but the pacing definitely felt rushed in key places - which is a little more irritating when there was some unnecessary padding throughout the short 10 episode run.
The grandfather paradox.
She sent Jack back to the past to allow Jack to kill him in his weakest form, however by doing so that means she never existed, and because she never existed that means Jack couldn't go back to the past. That's a time paradox.
Also, yes, for all we know, WW2 happening is the worst future. Or maybe not. See, that's the thing about changing historical events, changing them leads to alternative history to happen and changes the world as we know it. If WW2 never happened, there's a good chance fascism would spread throughout the western world faster and without resistance.
the_batman
Banned
the last episode felt rushed, it should've been an hour long. maybe they had budget issues, who knows. the dialogue also could've been better, especially at the end with Ashi.
but whatever, at least we finally have a conclusion to this amazing show.
but whatever, at least we finally have a conclusion to this amazing show.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Aku played the original intro to Samurai Jack, Mako voice and all. Then Greg Baldwin Aku starts talking right after. That was jarring.
I liked the ending. Finally, some closure on this series. I hated the Jack Ashi relationship so I'm more than fine with her ceasing to be, but how convenient that the time paradox took until she was walking down the aisle to realize "oh right you can't exist anymore lol". Although I expected the ending to actually Aku still living on in some form in Ashi due to inheriting his powers.
Anyways, I'm satisfied with it.
I liked the ending. Finally, some closure on this series. I hated the Jack Ashi relationship so I'm more than fine with her ceasing to be, but how convenient that the time paradox took until she was walking down the aisle to realize "oh right you can't exist anymore lol". Although I expected the ending to actually Aku still living on in some form in Ashi due to inheriting his powers.
Anyways, I'm satisfied with it.
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
The time paradox comes around when Ashi fades away, showing this is a linear timeline. Aku doesn't exist in the future, meaning Ashi doesn't exist, much less with Aku's power.
Trust me, the Allies winning the second world war is not the worst future. Even then, if World War 2 never happened, fascism as an ideology would have been accepted throughout Europe and even in the United States very easily. That would have created a worse future than WW2 happening at all.
Sure, the purpose of this show was that he should go back to the past and defeat Aku in the past, that's fine. My problem is that they went with the linear timeline theory for this ending. If they had created two timelines where Aku would have been defeated, then that's fine. However, they created a ton of plotholes by doing it like this.
Eh WW2 happened and the world is a fascist shithole in places and becoming more of one in others, it's not as if humans are champs at learning from the past
And time paradox... Meh. I think people make time travel more complex then it is. For one, it's not real, there are no rules, shits made up. He gets thrown to the future and thrown to the past both as nonsensically. It's magic not science, not reality, shouldn't make sense, doesn't have to make sense.
Dunno why people get so caught up on paradoxes like it's all rational.
Even then time takes a bit to catch up to Ashi. So jack is just ahead of things long enough to slip out of the rules of your paradox.
Dude, that's just excusing lazy and/or bad writing. Years of quantum theories about time and space aren't just "made up".
I don't see what's lazy about it. She was Aku's daughter, had his powers, used em to time portal him.
He's back in time kills Aku, she never exists. He's already in the past. He's out of the natural flow of time and there is nothing preventing his existence like Aku's death prevents Ashish existence. What's lazy about it?
Not all events in time travel have to be sequential in the same way.
Magic time portals break the flow and place of time but don't do anything to your heritage. Nobody killed Jack's parents.
This is a cartoon, let's not get hung up on theoretical physics and time travel. Call me back when some time travel experiments prove all this fantasy
Man on a rewatch it's such an incredibly cruel ending. Jack looked so happy at his wedding and after 50 years of nobility and generosity was denied his chance at happiness. And poor Ashi who had the shittiest life imaginable and who ultimately sacrificed herself to avert the future that is Aku... she had at best one good week in her life with one kiss, one date, and one campfire evening.
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
Sure, fascism exists still and is growing in some places, but that's speaking generally. There are other places in which it is being resisted.
Time flows in a single direction, once it occurs, it cannot be undone. Those are the rules we start out with.
Add time travel to the mix, it has to occur in a rational manner with those rules. You can say magic with the kind of show this is, but there are still rules that goes with the magic. After all, the magic cannot exist if there is no one there to cast it.
You cannot excuse lazy time travel writing with "Eh, doesn't matter, it's magic and not real." Just because something does not exist doesn't mean it cannot adhere to the rules of its own universe.
the_batman
Banned
hmmm, i wonder why Aku never pulled a Terminator to send someone back in time to kill Jack's parents, or even Jack's grandparents.
That Jack shouldn't exist in the past. That Jack should have faded out of existence too because he doesn't belong there as he is only there because of Ashi. Aku should return back into existence because Future Jack should not exist in the past.
But then, now Aku is back and etc., etc., etc. That's the point, this is a paradox that could have different answers like the Many Worlds interpretation which is commonly used to explain paradoxes and one that most people agree on.
HammerFace
Banned
This one. Ashi vanishes. Therefore changing the timeline has consequences. Either Ashi should have been immune or at the very least Jack should have lost his memories of the future since it never happened and in actuality Jack was never sent to the future.
Taco_Human
Member
I teared up, that was emotional 
the_batman
Banned
that doesn't make any sense
It's not spelled out. It's established that Ashi can't exist in. The. Past.
Says nothing about anything else.
Time travel in the show is established in this way and only this way: Aku can fuck with time. Ashi can fuck with time
Aku's death in the past removes Ashi
Nothing else is established
TheFierceGentleman
Banned
If Aku is dead in the past, then Ashi can never send Jack from the future to the past, therefore Aku is still alive in the past meaning he's alive in the future. This allows Ashi to exist to send Jack into the past to kill Aku in the past. Repeat
The time travel here is broken, it cannot work.
Ashi fading means she doesn't exist, her not existing means Jack had no way to return to the past (He was still sent into the future, that event still happened. They appeared only a few seconds after it). If he has no way to return to the past, then Aku couldn't be killed. Which means Ashi lived, but now they do have a way to go back, and then..
It's a paradox.
the_batman
Banned
Jack is already back when Aku dies, so why would he be affected
Jack's birth wasn't erased from history, his parents are alive.
Ashi's birth was erased from history, her "parents" were killed.
HammerFace
Banned
No Ashi can't exist in a timeline where Aku doesn't exist. Not that she can't exist in the past. So if this timeline has Ashi not existing then she couldnt have done the things that got Jack back to the past.
Bounceounce
Member
See, I agree with your Holocaust conundrum, but the thing is that in this case Aku finagled with the timeline by sending Jack to the future in the first place which made Jack trying to "fix" the past acceptable personally.
- Status