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[Ourobolus]

Because it applies to basic human rights, as well.

Just because it talks about human rights during wartime doesn't mean its policies extend into the civilian, criminal justice system. POWs are hardly on the same level as someone who rapes children (your standard POW, at the very least. If we're going to get into semantics about a POW who raped children, then I won't stop you, but it's hardly relevant).

Just because Sesame Street tells us to all be friends, you think it should be used as the basis for human rights simply because it's got something good to say?

 

[activatethesmile]

It's all about human rights until the rapist/murderers rapes or kill your own friend, family, or your loved ones.

I find it extremely hard to believe that the people who sings human rights for rapists/murderers will sing the same tune if the one getting killed or raped is anyone close to them.

*shrugs*

 

[ZiZ]

He did not have a defense attorney.

were you there at the trail?

 

[ZephyrFate]

Just because it talks about human rights during wartime doesn't mean its policies extend into the civilian, criminal justice system. POWs are hardly on the same level as someone who rapes children (your standard POW, at the very least. If we're going to get into semantics about a POW who raped children, then I won't stop you, but it's hardly relevant).

Just because Sesame Street tells us to all be friends, you think it should be used as the basis for human rights simply because it's got something good to say?

A better example is The Universal Declaration of Human Rights as set forth by the UN

With attention to:
Article 5.

* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.


and

Article 6.

* Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Among many others that have been violated by this and many other 'jurisdictions' put forth by Middle Eastern countries in regards to criminal acts, along with violent oppression of homosexuals, women, and other minorities.

activatethesmile: It's okay. I, among many others here in this thread, are proof positive that we will not 'change our tune' even if we were the victim of any number of those types of people affecting either our family or our own being. The "eye for an eye" saying that people seem to religiously follow in this thread is backwards and socially unacceptable by any means, and also unacceptable on a human standard, frankly.

 

[numble]

were you there at the trail?

No, it was closed doors.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8342005.stm

Human rights group Amnesty International has criticized the court proceedings saying Ramaly did not have access to a lawyer during his trial.

 

[Ourobolus]

A better example is The Universal Declaration of Human Rights as set forth by the UN

With attention to:
Article 5.

* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.


and

Article 6.

* Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Among many others that have been violated by this and many other 'jurisdictions' put forth by Middle Eastern countries in regards to criminal acts, along with violent oppression of homosexuals, women, and other minorities.

Oddly enough, Saudi Arabia did not adopt this policy.
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights - Wikipedia lists the countries, though the source it cites only states that there are eight.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/618067/Universal-Declaration-of-Human-Rights has it.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Oddly enough, Saudi Arabia did not adopt this policy.

Which is exactly why this is fucked up.

 

[Ourobolus]

Which is exactly why this is fucked up.

I agree. You're getting a bit off topic with the whole minority/women/homosexual thing, but I see your point. And I haven't disagreed on the beheading/crucifixion. However, something like lethal injection is not considered inhumane, at least by legal/societal standards (yet). The words, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" apply to torture and deaths involving substantial amounts of pain and humiliation, such as crucifixion and disembowelment.

And while I'm still searching for something regarding international law (the UN doctrine doesn't explicitly say "death in total is inhumane"), the US Supreme Court doesn't consider lethal injection inhumane. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/16/usa1

 

[Amir0x]

Heh, seriously though - I don't support the death penalty. Did not mean for that double negative :lol

 

[ZephyrFate]

I agree. You're getting a bit off topic with the whole minority/women/homosexual thing, but I see your point. And I haven't disagreed on the beheading/crucifixion. However, something like lethal injection is not considered inhumane, at least by legal/societal standards (yet). The words, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" apply to torture and deaths involving substantial amounts of pain and humiliation, such as crucifixion and disembowelment.

And while I'm still searching for something regarding international law (the UN doctrine doesn't explicitly say "death in total is inhumane"), the US Supreme Court doesn't consider lethal injection inhumane. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/16/usa1

I, to some degree, agree with that. I feel that since it is a sudden death that requires no mutilation of the body (so that way parts of it may be used for science, or used for transplants) that it is far more humane than any other form of 'death penalty'. I still do not agree with the death penalty in general, but lethal injection sort of meets me halfway.

The tangential part of that last post was just some of my bitterness towards the entire culture for engendering those disgusting and vile traditions that they harbor from time to time.

 

[empty vessel]

So we, in typical GAF fashion, have to pick between supporting backwards / barbaric Islamic punishment and a child rapist / attempted murderer? No thanks.

Assuming the guy even did it. Sounds like a 7-year old kid is the primary witness, and since modern countries like the US often get it wrong, I don't have much confidence in the Saudi criminal justice system.

Either way, even if guilty, the punishment is barbaric and unbefitting any civilized society.

 

[Ourobolus]

For the sake of full disclosure...
The UN has tried to introduce a doctrine that addresses capital punishment, but even it has compromises for those countries that choose not to ratify it:

Article 6

Section 1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.

Section 2. In countries which have not abolished the death penalty, sentence of death may be imposed only for the most serious crimes in accordance with the law in force at the time of the commission of the crime and not contrary to the provisions of the present Covenant and to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This penalty can only be carried out pursuant to a final judgement rendered by a competent court.

Section 3. When deprivation of life constitutes the crime of genocide, it is understood that nothing in this article shall authorize any State Party to the present Covenant to derogate in any way from any obligation assumed under the provisions of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

Section 4. Anyone sentenced to death shall have the right to seek pardon or commutation of the sentence. Amnesty, pardon or commutation of the sentence of death may be granted in all cases.

Section 5. Sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age and shall not be carried out on pregnant women.

Section 6. Nothing in this article shall be invoked to delay or to prevent the abolition of capital punishment by any State Party to the present Covenant.

 

[ZephyrFate]

It ratifies the amendment for countries that choose not to follow it, but also adds "only after a final judgment from a competent court", which, unfortunately, Saudi Arabia does not have one.

 

[numble]

There's nothing in international law that forbids the death penalty, and I think it's a fool for one to go looking for it at the moment. 3/5 of the Permanent Security Council members have it. More useful is a prohibition against the execution of juvenile offenders--which has support in international law, and Saudi Arabia still executes juveniles, even though it has ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids it (to get technical on the international law aspects, it doesn’t matter whether or not it ratified or had reservations to that Convention, if the convention is just codifying what is already jus cogens [see first link]).

Additionally, if you use the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a baseline for what countries consider to be universal minimum rights to process, you run into Article 14d, which requires legal counsel in cases where "justice requires" (note this is below the US standard of legal counsel in all criminal cases). Even China, with the most executions, has formally acknowledged this right by requiring legal counsel in all death penalty cases, something which Saudi Arabia does not do.

 

[Ourobolus]

There's nothing in international law that forbids the death penalty, and I think it's a fool for one to go looking for it at the moment. 3/5 of the Permanent Security Council members have it. More useful is a prohibition against the execution of juvenile offenders--which has support in international law, and Saudi Arabia still executes juveniles, even though it has ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids it (to get technical on the international law aspects, it doesn’t matter whether or not it ratified or had reservations to that Convention, if the convention is just codifying what is already jus cogens [see first link]).

Additionally, if you use the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as a baseline for what countries consider to be universal minimum rights to process, you run into Article 14d, which requires legal counsel in cases where "justice requires" (note this is below the US standard of legal counsel in all criminal cases). Even China, with the most executions, has formally acknowledged this right by requiring legal counsel in all death penalty cases, something which Saudi Arabia does not do.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Saudi courts. I'm simply stating that while I believe the death penalty is warranted in this case, the way they are going about it is both improper (legally) and inhumane (as the punishment is quite more than just an injection).

 

[trinest]

I see it as society removing them from society. Sure, someone eventually flips the switch/swings the axe, but he's carrying out the punishment dictated by society/the justice system in place.

I forgot your country still murders people for crimes.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I forgot your country still murders people for crimes.

Oh right, I forgot your country was a penal colony.

 

[Terrascape]

The only logical argument that execution has over life imprisonment, is that it could, could be cheaper in the long run (though it has been stated many time that this is not often the case). Delving any further into the whole "eye-for-an-eye" argument just plays on people's emotions. Then you have ethics, chances of false sentencing... it's a tricky issue but I just can't see why execution is justified in 2009 (especially beheading).

As for this particular case, it's disturbing that some people in the world don't get trials when the punishment = death.

 

[faceless007]

Bloodlust is not a guiding principle on which to conduct a penal system.

 

[hteng]

saudi is rich as fuck and you can't do anything about it

 

[SapientWolf]

They're showing remarkable restraint. I expected them to strap him down and let a pack of horny camels go to town on his ass.

 

[iamaustrian]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sa-saudi-arabia/cri-crime

Saudi:
85,000crimes in 2002 of which 202 were murders. Population 29 million.
Ratio of crime to population ~= .003

America:
11 million crimes. 16 thousand murders. Population ~300 million.
Ratio of crime to population ~= 0.037

:lol

 

[Freshmaker]

I, to some degree, agree with that. I feel that since it is a sudden death that requires no mutilation of the body (so that way parts of it may be used for science, or used for transplants) that it is far more humane than any other form of 'death penalty'. I still do not agree with the death penalty in general, but lethal injection sort of meets me halfway.

Lethal injection ruins every organ. There's nothing for transplant. Beheading would actually be better for that sort of thing. It'd also open up a massive can of worms in terms of ethics. Not only would people be moaning about innocent people killed, they'd be moaning about people being sentenced to death purely for organ harvesting etc.

 

[SmokyDave]

Why should they consider his human rights when the guy did not think twice about letting a kid die in a dessert.

Oh man, I know it's inappropriate but I chuckled at this. Left the poor kid face down in an ice cream sundae.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

No one has the right to abuse or take a life. Even if you *think* you are acting in the name of morals, justice and all is right.

If you believe in all that bible stuff, god only gave the power to one man to take away life
at his behest, and for people to be using God's name/Christian ways to justify a murder is wrong (not the case in hand, but most of these death penalty people are religious nuts)

In this case, boy, what he did was wrong and horrible and the draconian methods of the Saudi court of law SEEM correct. But in the cold light of day, no one should have the right to take anyones life.

We as a culture need to set examples, life taking isn't a particularly good one

 

[Veidt]

So what does PC gaf have to say about self-defense?? I mean, if murder is any death, of any individual in any situation, no matter what crime was committed. Than self-defense is surely a murder too, and anyone who commits self-defense should be found guilty of a murder too?

Murder is unlawful killing. Believe it or not, there is lawful killing. Some evil bastards need to be put down. Like Hitler for instance, evil bastard, that needed to be put down.

This is a repeat offender child-rapist. Pretty much as low as you could possibly go. He had no mercy for the children he killed. He left one of them to die in the fucking desert. His punishment is more merciful than what he did to the children, as anyone can tell you, the death penatly was popular among those cultures, because people found it better to be put to death swiftly, than to be left in the fucking desert to die.

 

[Ourobolus]

I forgot your country still murders people for crimes.

I'll listen to what you have to say once you actually reach the age of majority in your country.

 

[operon]

So what does PC gaf have to say about self-defense?? I mean, if murder is any death, of any individual in any situation, no matter what crime was committed. Than self-defense is surely a murder too, and anyone who commits self-defense should be found guilty of a murder too?

Murder is unlawful killing. Believe it or not, there is lawful killing. Some evil bastards need to be put down. Like Hitler for instance, evil bastard, that needed to be put down.

Self defence isn't murder, you have to protect yourself and wh died and made you God that you can decide who lives and who dies?

 

[Mogg0]

Put this in perspective.

12:1

So a ruling government utilizing fear is now acceptable?

 

[Mogg0]

Oh right, I forgot your country was a penal colony.

I love loser's like you, unintentionally destroying their arguments. Fancy us, a country founded by convicts, spared execution and offered the chance of rehabilitation. And look what happened as a result of their efforts... one of the safest, economically robust and humane countries on earth.

You utter twat.

 

[Sipowicz]

Self defence isn't murder, you have to protect yourself and wh died and made you God that you can decide who lives and who dies?

who made you god that you can decide the same?

as for protecting yourself, in this case you're protecting kids from rape/death

you could maybe do the same by wasting taxpayers money incarcerating the fuck for the rest of his life, but either option sounds fine.

if someone tries to kill you you could fight back or you could run away and call the cops. if you do fight back and kill the twat no-one will blame you

 

[operon]

who made you god that you can decide the same?

as for protecting yourself, in this case you're protecting kids from rape/death

you could maybe do the same by wasting taxpayers money incarcerating the fuck for the rest of his life, but either option sounds fine.

if someone tries to kill you you could fight back or you could run away and call the cops. if you do fight back and kill the twat no-one will blame you

Theres a difference between going out to kill someone and having to defend yourself against someone who is trying to kill you. I can't imagine too many people not being able to see the difference

 

[Ourobolus]

I love loser's like you, unintentionally destroying their arguments. Fancy us, a country founded by convicts, spared execution and offered the chance of rehabilitation. And look what happened as a result of their efforts... one of the safest, economically robust and humane countries on earth.

You utter twat.

To be fair, you guys really could only go up from where you started.

 

[Mogg0]

Not really. Due to your assumed ignorance of Australian history, Aboriginals roamed this land up to 40,000 years prior and seemed to be pretty fucking good at it. We came along and fucked them over, but prior to that they were doing a nice job, culturally and socially. I'd insist you go read about it, but I gather you're only in here to troll and annoy and its not like a bit of general knowledge would cleanse you of your idiocy.

Back on topic. Sorry:

 

[numble]

who made you god that you can decide the same?

as for protecting yourself, in this case you're protecting kids from rape/death

you could maybe do the same by wasting taxpayers money incarcerating the fuck for the rest of his life, but either option sounds fine.

if someone tries to kill you you could fight back or you could run away and call the cops. if you do fight back and kill the twat no-one will blame you

Most of Saudi government services are not run by taxpayers money.

 

[Veidt]

PC gaf is entertaining.

 

[LocoMrPollock]

Would be better if they burned him alive instead of beheading him.

 

[numble]

PC gaf is entertaining.

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

 

[xelios]

To be fair, you guys really could only go up from where you started.

:lol

 

[Veidt]

I don't think that term means what you think it means.

Then what do you call it?
PC is the closest thing I can think of right now.

 

[numble]

Then what do you call it?
PC is the closest thing I can think of right now.

Who taught you how to label those with different thoughts PC?

PC is supposed to only be used when you want to say, "you know you're thinking the same thing and/or you just want to avoid using these specific terms and use different words because you're afraid of being seen as insensitive."

It's not a catch-all label for the left, just like neocon is not a catch-all label for the right.

 

[Veidt]

Who taught you how to label those with different thoughts PC?

PC is supposed to only be used when you want to say, "you know you're thinking the same thing and/or you just want to avoid using these specific terms and use different words because you're afraid of being seen as insensitive."

It's not a catch-all label for the left, just like neoconservative is not a catch-all label for the right.

Ok. So what's the proper phrase?

 

[numble]

Ok. So what's the proper phrase?

How should I know if I don't know what you're referring to? I just know that there is not political correctness going on here. Do you find the people from Australia entertaining? The people that want to sign up to beat convicted rapists with a hammer? The people that are pointing out deficiencies in the Saudi legal system? The people who don't condone death penalty in any type or form? The people who want a different execution method so that they can harvest organs?

There's lots of things going on here, and I have no idea what you want to refer to. There's just not an political correctness going on here.

 

[Veidt]

Fair enough. You don't know the term either.

 

[Ourobolus]

Not really. Due to your assumed ignorance of Australian history, Aboriginals roamed this land up to 40,000 years prior and seemed to be pretty fucking good at it. We came along and fucked them over, but prior to that they were doing a nice job, culturally and socially. I'd insist you go read about it, but I gather you're only in here to troll and annoy and its not like a bit of general knowledge would cleanse you of your idiocy.

I'm aware of the Aboriginal history prior to you guys showing up. Your society started then (you even admit this), not 40,000 years before. You could say the same thing about the Native Americans. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

Troll and annoy, eh?

Ugh. Fuckwit.

You're a fucking maniac.

I love loser's like you...You utter twat.

 

[Hari Seldon]

You win this time, Saudi Arabia.

:lol :lol

 

[ZephyrFate]

Fair enough. You don't know the term either.

Are you calling those of us saying that the death penalty is fucked up "politically-correct GAF"? You really do not know what that term means at all.

The punishment should not be exactly the same or worse than the crime. That is inhumane. We do not live in an age where this would be considered a good idea. I mean, I guess in a world where "Allah is the MOST POWERFUL GOD EVER" we can think silly things like saying that self-defense is somehow the same as 'lawful killing', which, no, should no exist in times like these.

 

[Chrono]

That pedophile should have married his female victims, if there were any, that way it's legal in Saudi Arabia and he'd be following in the footsteps of the pinnacle of virtue, prophet mohammad.

 

[TAJ]

In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.

Reminds me of Kentucky Fried Movie.
[Master Klahn decapitates a prisoner] Klahn: Now take him to be tortured!

 

[HowellJenkins]

That pedophile should have married his female victims, if there were any, that way it's legal in Saudi Arabia and he'd be following in the footsteps of the pinnacle of virtue, prophet mohammad.

thats a low blow but I like it