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[CharmingCharlie]

You mustn't have read the article.

Not a bad idea.

I was not aware this had always been about a currency union. An independent Scotland would have the flexibility to use the pound, the Euro, or a national currency pegged to either one -- in all four cases, it would not have to be part of any union. The point I was trying to make was that Cameron, the Conservatives, and Labour have consistently used scare tactics by arguing Scotland would be in dire monetary straits upon achieving independence (read the article), but that is simply not true.

Both sides have used the "pound issue" to their advantage and both sides are guilty of using "scare tactics" you know like "OMG if you don't vote Yes that is the end of the NHS". It is a campaign where both sides are lying their arses off to get people to vote their way.

There are very real financial repercussions for Scotland if it goes ahead and uses a currency without a central bank but no lets just call that "scare tactics". Does it mean Scotland will collapse and you will all be eating dogs and cats found off the street ? Probably not but using a currency without a lender of last resort is not a great idea.

Now I actually want Scotland to vote Yes to independence now. Simply because I do not want this bullshit coming up again in another 5 - 10 years time. It is pretty clear that the Scottish do not wish to be in the Union long term so it is best for all concerned that they leave now. But at the same time I want it to be FULL independence for Scotland that means no currency union and no HMRC doing all of Scotland's tax collecting work

 

[CyclopsRock]

Surely Scotland will basically have to use the £ anyway? Whether it's within a currency union or not, why on earth would they want to join this sinking ship cack-squad? I mean... I can't believe it's actually official Lib Dem policy to still join this train wreck of bullshit. And whilst a non-currency union use of the £ is just more of the same monetary-union-without-political union stuff, at least our economies would be starting in basically the same place, more or less.

 

[Masquerader]

Does anyone here think that George Osborne will actually make good on his panic promises?

Just curious.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Does anyone here think that George Osborne will actually make good on his panic promises?

Just curious.

I don't see why not, really. As a Tory chancellor, the more of a case he can make for dealing with the West Lothian question, the better. The more that gets devolved, the less legitimacy Scottish MPs have on even more England-only (or England, Wales and NI) issues. Given the current levels of Tory success in Scotland, this isn't a bad thing for him, I think.

 

[Masquerader]

I don't see why not, really. As a Tory chancellor, the more of a case he can make for dealing with the West Lothian question, the better. The more that gets devolved, the less legitimacy Scottish MPs have on even more England-only (or England, Wales and NI) issues. Given the current levels of Tory success in Scotland, this isn't a bad thing for him, I think.

Eh, fair enough. It wouldn't surprise me if he would or would not, though. He's somewhat creepy in my eyes. :c

In any case, this is such a win-win situation for Scotland, methinks. They get some form of increased independence either way, it seems.

 

[Polari]

New royal baby announced before the 12-week point - am I allowed to be cynical about the timing?

 

[Uzzy]

Does anyone here think that George Osborne will actually make good on his panic promises?

Just curious.

I imagine that if the UK parties didn't, the SNP would push for another referendum very quickly, and probably win that one.

 

[gofreak]

New royal baby announced before the 12-week point - am I allowed to be cynical about the timing?

Their first was announced early too, and seemingly for the same reason - severe morning sickness which would be difficult to hide from the press.

 

[Walshicus]

The baby thing looks like it's backfiring anyway (like a lot of No stuff lately).

Does anyone here think that George Osborne will actually make good on his panic promises?

Just curious.

Depends, if by make good you mean waits two decades for a change in Westminster government and another referendum...

 

[kmag]

Eh, fair enough. It wouldn't surprise me if he would or would not, though. He's somewhat creepy in my eyes. :c

In any case, this is such a win-win situation for Scotland, methinks. They get some form of increased independence either way, it seems.

They're saying you can spend all the money you raise, after paying for shared services. Fair enough, but they're explicitly removing the proceeds of North Sea Oil and Gas from that pot which isn't particularly fair.

North Sea Oil and Gas has always been classed as "other" in UK Government GDP and taxation figures, it is not geographically assigned mainly to allow the Daily Mail to continue to peg us as leeches.

 

[RedShift]

A comment on the BBC feed has made me a bit more cheerful. If there's a yes vote we can stop the ridiculous practice of changing our clocks twice a year, seeing as the only justification seems to be Hebridean dairy farmers.

 

[CyclopsRock]

A comment on the BBC feed has made me a bit more cheerful. If there's a yes vote we can stop the ridiculous practice of changing our clocks twice a year, seeing as the only justification seems to be Hebridean dairy farmers.

I really don't see why they need the clocks changing anyway. Surely they just get up when it's light, whether everyone calls it 4oclock or 5oclock?

Anyway, Krugman felt like giving the Yes campaign a bit of a slap yesterday, which seems like a slightly niche issue for the star columnist of the NYT to concentrate on but I guess he has to twiddle his thumbs over something.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?_r=0

Next week Scotland will hold a referendum on whether to leave the United Kingdom. And polling suggests that support for independence has surged over the past few months, largely because pro-independence campaigners have managed to reduce the “fear factor” — that is, concern about the economic risks of going it alone. At this point the outcome looks like a tossup.

Well, I have a message for the Scots: Be afraid, be very afraid. The risks of going it alone are huge. You may think that Scotland can become another Canada, but it’s all too likely that it would end up becoming Spain without the sunshine.

...

In short, everything that has happened in Europe since 2009 or so has demonstrated that sharing a currency without sharing a government is very dangerous. In economics jargon, fiscal and banking integration are essential elements of an optimum currency area. And an independent Scotland using Britain’s pound would be in even worse shape than euro countries, which at least have some say in how the European Central Bank is run.

I find it mind-boggling that Scotland would consider going down this path after all that has happened in the last few years. If Scottish voters really believe that it’s safe to become a country without a currency, they have been badly misled.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This is what I wrote in the "UK PoliGAF" thread:

The whole thing is going to be such a shit storm if it passes.

The yes campaign rides on the crest of a romantic notions of an independent Scotland whilst completely stonewalling anyone who begins to question how things are actually going to be run.

"Scotland is going to get everything good about the union but none of the bad stuff!"

I can't believe yes voters actually believe that garbage.

 

[Frankfurter]

I'm curious if yes voters actually believe that or if it isn't more likely that they just wanna be independant from the UK and choose the side that atleast promises to grant them more of that.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I'm curious if yes voters actually believe that or if it isn't more likely that they just wanna be independant from the UK and choose the side that atleast promises to grant them more of that.

I get the distinct impression that yes voters haven't actually thought about the ramifications of independence. They just end up believing the political BS that Scotland will get all the good things they know and love without all the bother of being apart of a political union.

When in the history of politics has election propaganda been an accurate blueprint for reality?

 

[Walshicus]

The whole thing is going to be such a shit storm if it passes.

It's going to be glorious - we English finally get the kick up the arse we need to rethink our place in the world and the Scots get the powers they need to maximise their prosperity.

The yes campaign rides on the crest of a romantic notions of an independent Scotland whilst completely stonewalling anyone who begins to question how things are actually going to be run.

There are a LOT of examples of successful small European nations that aren't wedged into the UK. Do you struggle to understand how Denmark works? Or Iceland or Norway? No?

"Scotland is going to get everything good about the union but none of the bad stuff!"

Ireland seemed to do okay from it.

I get the distinct impression that yes voters haven't actually thought about the ramifications of independence. They just end up believing the political BS that Scotland will get all the good things they know and love without all the bother of being apart of a political union.

That's just bullshit: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...dum-research-more-information-likely-vote-yes

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

It's going to be glorious - we English finally get the kick up the arse we need to rethink our place in the world and the Scots get the powers they need to maximise their prosperity.


There are a LOT of examples of successful small European nations that aren't wedged into the UK. Do you struggle to understand how Denmark works? Or Iceland or Norway? No?


Ireland seemed to do okay from it.

I remember a while back when Alex Salmond was talking about what currency Scotland would adopt if it went independent. He mentioned the Euro and cited Ireland and Iceland as good examples of prosperous small nations.

Of course that was before the economic shit storm went down. Salmond soon changed his mind after that.

If he wants independence then it should be complete. None of this half and half bullshit. But Salmond doesn't seem to have the confidence in his own country to go down that route, instead he wants to adopt bits and pieces from Britain while ignoring all the bad stuff. I have zero respect for the entire yes campaign for that reason.

 

[Slair]

I remember a while back when Alex Salmond was talking about what currency Scotland would adopt if it went independent. He mentioned the Euro and cited Ireland and Iceland as good examples of prosperous small nations.

Of course that was before the economic shit storm went down. Salmond soon changed his mind after that.

If he wants independence then it should be complete. None of this half and half bullshit. But Salmond doesn't seem to have the confidence in his own country to go down that route, instead he wants to adopt bits and pieces from Britain while ignoring all the bad stuff. I have zero respect for the entire yes campaign for that reason.

Yes campaign is far bigger and more diverse than Salmond or the SNP.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Yes campaign is far bigger and more diverse than Salmond or the SNP.

Is it? That man has been the face of it for a very long time. The whole thing feels like it his attempt at ensuring a legacy for himself.

 

[Nicktendo86]

New round of polls are going to show the yes lead not a fluke apparently.

Looking like it could very well be bye bye Scotland. I'm honestly in shock, and the better together camp seem to be as well. When you have Gordon fucking Brown riding in 10 days before the polls open with a back of the fag packet nonsense bill called home rule as a way to sweeten the deal you know you are in deep shit.

Only thing keeping a smile on my fave is the though of labour losing 40 Westminster seats after bringing in devolution and trying to fix it so the SNP are kept out.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Rumours are saying the TNS shows Yes 57% No 43%. If true, there is no way back.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Rumours are saying the TNS shows Yes 57% No 43%. If true, there is no way back.

Good lord

 

[Nicktendo86]

Rumours are saying the TNS shows Yes 57% No 43%. If true, there is no way back.

Fucking hell.

The better together 'campaign' has been dire. Utterly, utterly dire, and you can see the panic going on now. They did not even think this could happen.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Sort of interested to see what impact this will have on Europe as a whole, and what it means for say, Catalan separatists, Basque separatists, Bavarian separatists, and so on.

 

[Walshicus]

Is it? That man has been the face of it for a very long time. The whole thing feels like it his attempt at ensuring a legacy for himself.

He's a popular First Minister who has consistently been in favour of independence. How would he act differently if he were in favour of independence but not 'ensuring his legacy'?

 

[John Dunbar]

if this sticks will murray still count as a british wimbledon champ?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

if this sticks will murray still count as a brittish wimbledon champ?

Given he was British at the time of win, yes. After this, there will be no 'British'.

EDIT: For those waiting for the poll, the embargo breaks midnight. Might be worth staying up for.

 

[Betty]

if this sticks will murray still count as a brittish wimbledon champ?

He said that if Scotland go independent he'll play for Scotland, not England. But his prior wins count him as British.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Sort of interested to see what impact this will have on Europe as a whole, and what it means for say, Catalan separatists, Basque separatists, Bavarian separatists, and so on.

Precision why the EU will be reluctant to grant membership, can of worms.

 

[Ikuu]

New round of polls are going to show the yes lead not a fluke apparently.

Looking like it could very well be bye bye Scotland. I'm honestly in shock, and the better together camp seem to be as well. When you have Gordon fucking Brown riding in 10 days before the polls open with a back of the fag packet nonsense bill called home rule as a way to sweeten the deal you know you are in deep shit.

Only thing keeping a smile on my fave is the though of labour losing 40 Westminster seats after bringing in devolution and trying to fix it so the SNP are kept out.

Well it's easier to run a campaign that is selling people a dream.

if this sticks will murray still count as a british wimbledon champ?

Yes. Unless he chooses to renounce his citizenship, even then he was British at the time and that'll be enough for some people.

 

[Betty]

I live in Scotland, I'm Scottish, and I really don't want to go independent.

Sure, it might be better, it might even be just as good as we are now, but there's always the chance things might go wrong and that is not a great situation to be in and I don't think the reward makes the risk worth it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I live in Scotland, I'm Scottish, and I really don't want to go independent.

Sure, it might be better, it might even be just as good as we are now, but there's always the chance things might go wrong and that is not a great situation to be in and I don't think the reward makes the risk worth it.

Then you need to vote, because No's only hope right now is a good turn-out on their behalf and a poor turn-out for Yes.

 

[Walshicus]

I live in Scotland, I'm Scottish, and I really don't want to go independent.

Sure, it might be better, it might even be just as good as we are now, but there's always the chance things might go wrong and that is not a great situation to be in and I don't think the reward makes the risk worth it.

Hundreds of years of my people fucking your country up hasn't shown you the risk is in staying?

 

[hidys]

I really don't see why they need the clocks changing anyway. Surely they just get up when it's light, whether everyone calls it 4oclock or 5oclock?

Anyway, Krugman felt like giving the Yes campaign a bit of a slap yesterday, which seems like a slightly niche issue for the star columnist of the NYT to concentrate on but I guess he has to twiddle his thumbs over something.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opinion/paul-krugman-scots-what-the-heck.html?_r=0

As an outsider I have to say the currency issue to me would be a deal breaker.

I would only consider voting yes if Scotland got its own currency with its own central bank.

 

[Faddy]

Precision why the EU will be reluctant to grant membership, can of worms.

No. This referendum has been recognised and agreed to by the government of the UK. If the Spanish don't want their constituent parts to break away they can simply deny them an official referendum.

The legal precedent of removing citizens from the EU against their will is a much greater can of worms.

 

[Betty]

Then you need to vote, because No's only hope right now is a good turn-out on their behalf and a poor turn-out for Yes.

I had hoped the No campaign would be strong enough on it's own, but it seems I'll have to do my bit after all.

Hundreds of years of my people fucking your country up hasn't shown you the risk is in staying?

We just don't have any major issues right now, no civil unrest or debilitating plight, I just don't have a huge urge to upset the way things are.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Hundreds of years of my people fucking your country up hasn't shown you the risk is in staying?

Is this... English guilt? Are you so pro independent Scotland because you're ashamed to be English?

That's pretty weird.

I had hoped the No campaign would be strong enough on it's own, but it seems I'll have to do my bit after all.

I'm hoping that is the case for all the no voters at this point. Hopefully the shock of the poll results will get those voters out of the house. It would be appalling if a 300 year old union is dissolved because people were sold a dream.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

No. This referendum has been recognised and agreed to by the government of the UK. If the Spanish don't want their constituent parts to break away they can simply deny them an official referendum.

The legal precedent of removing citizens from the EU against their will is a much greater can of worms.

That can doesn't really have any worms in it. I covered this in the other Scottish independence thread.

The European Commission has written a short letter to the Scottish Parliament explaining that EU citizenship is not an autonomous status, but is dependent on national citizenship. Cease to be a national citizen of a member state, cease to be an EU citizen. There's no crisis.

 

[Walshicus]

Is this... English guilt? Are you so pro independent Scotland because you're ashamed to be English?.

No, I love England. I'm just not so blinded by it that I can't see our failings.

I'm pro Scotland because I like the guys and because I think England needs the kick up the arse ending the UK (effectively) will bring. We *need* Scottish independence as much as they do.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

No, I love England. I'm just not so blinded by it that I can't see our failings.

I'm pro Scotland because I like the guys and because I think England needs the kick up the arse ending the UK (effectively) will bring. We *need* Scottish independence as much as they do.

And what do you think it will do for England?

Please provide me actual details and not vague promises and idealistic dreams (ala the yes campaign for Scotland).

 

[Slair]

Is it? That man has been the face of it for a very long time. The whole thing feels like it his attempt at ensuring a legacy for himself.

Very much so, the media makes it look like it's Labor/Lib-Dems/Tories vs Salmond/SNP, when in reality it's the smaller groups within the campaigns that are fighting this and on the yes side it's them that are bringing the polls closer.

 

[jimbor]

Is this... English guilt? Are you so pro independent Scotland because you're ashamed to be English?

That's pretty weird.


I'm hoping that is the case for all the no voters at this point. Hopefully the shock of the poll results will get those voters out of the house. It would be appalling if a 300 year old union is dissolved because people were sold a dream.

Much better that they succumbed to fear instead.

 

[Goodlife]

fcuk, this is really getting interesting now.

Will be a brave move by Scotland if they vote yes.
Really not sure if it's going to be good, but it'll be brave.

When you've got cnuts like Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Gove and May running your country though, you can completely understand why they want out.

 

[CyclopsRock]

As an outsider I have to say the currency issue to me would be a deal breaker.

I would only consider voting yes if Scotland got its own currency with its own central bank.

It seems to me that there aren't really any decent options. Setting up their own currency has its share of problems, too.

Also, with regards to the poll, the bookies have moved in the opposite direction but "No" is still very much the favourite there. In Ladbrokes we trust.

 

[CyclopsRock]

fcuk, this is really getting interesting now.

Will be a brave move by Scotland if they vote yes.
Really not sure if it's going to be good, but it'll be brave.

When you've got cnuts like Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Gove and May running your country though, you can completely understand why they want out.

Reminds me of the line from Limmy's take on it:

"It's a big year for Scotland! The referendum! Do you want to be ruled by this pack of liars, or that? I couldn'ae decide!"

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Much better that they succumbed to fear instead.

Fear? Did Westminster send the redcoats to pillage your village and rape your women?

I've got no issue with an independent Scotland if they actually wanted independence. Instead they want to bolt things onto it and turn it into some Frankenstein-like monster.

You'll be independent except another country will control your currency and your MPs won't get any say in it. Brilliant.

What gets me actually angry about this issue is the idea that - if independent - the SNP thinks that they can demand things from the rest of Britain while they themselves are not willing to share the burden. What will the rest of Britain get from this arrangement?

 

[Kotetsu534]

I'm a no voter, but I don't understand why the no campaign has focused relentlessly on the possible dangers of independence (that is essentially all they've talked about for over a year) when they should be talking about everything we've achieved as a union over the past 300 years. Telling people "we couldn't make it on our own" is never going to be as appealing as another group saying "yes, we can".

 

[RulkezX]

Andrew Neil tweeting that the horrible b*****d Murdoch is about to try and play King maker again.

It's been obvious for a while what the Scottish Sun's editorial policy was regarding the referendum ( shit like giving Bill Leckie a 2 page spread because he decided to vote YES, Bill Leckie ! , and the nonsense articles about 700 billion worth of oil in the North Sea from fracking) but it looks like their going balls in with the secessionists.

It also explains the behaviour of News Corps other rags and news channels over the last couple of weeks. It may not sway many , but there are plenty who read and believe everything that's written in the red tops.

I'm a no voter, but I don't understand why the no campaign has focused relentlessly on the possible dangers of independence (that is essentially all they've talked about for over a year) when they should be talking about everything we've achieved as a union over the past 300 years. Telling people "we couldn't make it on your own" is never going to be as appealing as another group saying "yes, we can".

This has NEVER happened.

The "Too Wee , Too Stupid" line was coined by the YES side as part of the campaign to turn it into England/ Westminster vs Scotland. No one on teh NO side has ever claimed Scotland couldn't go it on her own.

 

[BertramCooper]

I had a feeling the polls would narrow in the lead-up to the vote, but damn, what a huge shift.

As an outsider, it seemed that the No campaign went far too negative. Too heavy on scare tactics and coercive rhetoric and too light on positive, substantive messages about the mutual benefits of the union.

That's not to say that I think the No campaign is wrong - if I were Scottish, I'd definitely vote no - but the No campaign really bungled the overall message and pushed people away from them.

Again, this is an outsider's perspective.

 

[danwarb]

We'll have to build another wall.