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[Incendiary]

I think, in Tomb Raider's case at least, this is one of those things that is trying to make the game more mature and more grittier and whatever and honestly, I don't like it.

It makes sense in games like Dead Space, Resident Evil, etc. because they're trying to be horror games. Walking Dead and Heavy Rain have horror themes and undertones for most of their games as well. Tomb Raider, though, seems like a mish-mash of everything. It's trying to be Uncharted. It's trying to be Resident Evil. It's trying to be every popular game of the last five or six years and the gruesome death sequences just feel out of place with the rest of the hodge-podge of mechanics.

The scripted deaths should never be inserted just to make a game more "visceral" or any other buzzword.

 

[Tawney Bomb]

Resident Evil has had pretty great death sequences since it started. It's not surprising or spalling to see other games with them. Maybe seeing a fictional character impaled just doesn't pull at my heartstrings enough.

 

[Spazznid]

"so peek-a-boo, clear tha way, I be comin' thru fo'sho." ~ Spazznid

Please make this my tag someday...

 

[Harlequin]

I think, in Tomb Raider's case at least, this is one of those things that is trying to make the game more mature and more grittier and whatever and honestly, I don't like it.

It makes sense in games like Dead Space, Resident Evil, etc. because they're trying to be horror games. Walking Dead and Heavy Rain have horror themes and undertones for most of their games as well. Tomb Raider, though, seems like a mish-mash of everything. It's trying to be Uncharted. It's trying to be Resident Evil. It's trying to be every popular game of the last five or six years and the gruesome death sequences just feel out of place with the rest of the hodge-podge of mechanics.

The scripted deaths should never be inserted just to make a game more "visceral" or any other buzzword.

Like I have previously said: the scripted deaths are meant to make you want to avoid them and to feel for Lara. They're not meant to be "cool" or "fun" in any way. They're meant to be disturbing.

 

[.GqueB.]

It always takes me out of the game a bit. We're so used to NOT seeing a character die that way in videogames or in movies alike. There's always some heroic death or some emotional situation where they die in someones arms etc etc. When they are killed so gruesomely, they get reduced to just another character in my eyes because it's treated so flippantly.

Just a weird thing that I experience.

 

[Pinko Marx]

EVERYONE

My new favorite thing is going to be reading topics thru this.

 

[Mlatador]

I think those horrible deaths are a way of the gaming industry of trying to mask how boring QTE's (or the games themselves) are otherwise.

Horror, disgust, brutality (and explosions?) seem to be the only ways to "evoke" feelings in modern day gamers.

 

[Plywood]

Not a fan of it, just comes across as gratuitous. It does nothing for me.

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

I think, in Tomb Raider's case at least, this is one of those things that is trying to make the game more mature and more grittier and whatever and honestly, I don't like it.

It makes sense in games like Dead Space, Resident Evil, etc. because they're trying to be horror games. Walking Dead and Heavy Rain have horror themes and undertones for most of their games as well. Tomb Raider, though, seems like a mish-mash of everything. It's trying to be Uncharted. It's trying to be Resident Evil. It's trying to be every popular game of the last five or six years and the gruesome death sequences just feel out of place with the rest of the hodge-podge of mechanics.

The scripted deaths should never be inserted just to make a game more "visceral" or any other buzzword.

The Tomb Raider series has always had some horror tones running through them. While I haven't followed the new game, it isn't really fair to say that it's copying any of those games, considering that death sequences have been apart of the series for a long while now.

 

[KevinCow]

The only thing that bothers me about Lara getting impaled like that is the way she helplessly fumbles at the pole afterwards.

I mean if you were impaled like that, I'm fairly certain you'd die pretty much instantly. You wouldn't even have the couple seconds of consciousness she has.

I demand realism in my gruesome video game deaths.

 

[ii Stryker]

Death animations like these make me actually care whether I die. I feel bad for Lara and what my poor decision making/skills have put her through.

Games need to do more to make me care about my character not less.

 

[disappeared]

There's a whle other thread I want to make about this now. But I'll need to actually complete this fucking game first to do so. And I was never sold on it from day one. Hmm.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

If you get impaled through the head like that would you even be alive for more than a second?

 

[Spazznid]

Death animations like these make me actually care whether I die. I feel bad for Lara and what my poor decision making/skills have put her through.

Games need to do more to make me care about my character not less.

Exactly my thoughts.

Dying in some lame animation over and over and being presented with nothing but a loading screen just gets annoying. A death that you truly don't want to see is promotion to learn from your mistakes and brings gravity to the mistakes you do make.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

 

[Harlequin]

The only thing that bothers me about Lara getting impaled like that is the way she helplessly fumbles at the pole afterwards.

I mean if you were impaled like that, I'm fairly certain you'd die pretty much instantly. You wouldn't even have the couple seconds of consciousness she has.

I demand realism in my gruesome video game deaths.

Nope, it's realistic, I think. There are those stories of people who got decapitated and could still make a step or two without their head. That's because the signals that got sent from the brain right before the head got chopped off can still reach their destination and tell the body to move.

 

[BajiBoxer]

It wasn't an attempted rape and the fail state is simply Lara getting strangled. They guy does grope her a little so there are slight sexual undertones but there never is and never was an actual rape in the game.

She was tied up, pushed up against a wall and groped while dude was pushing his body up against her making panting noises, and strangled with the guy on top of her. I consider that attempted rape. They did a pretty good job conveying what the guy was planning.

 

[AlphaStriker]

Man I am not looking forward to playing that river QTE.

 

[sn00zer]

Im not arguing that death scenes arent a Tomb Raider tradition, with pretty grizzly drowning and impaling animations....this one in particular is great...but with such great advances in animation and graphics they stopped being entertaining and have turned into something revolting

 

[Incendiary]

Like I have previously said: the scripted deaths are meant to make you want to avoid them and to feel for Lara. They're not meant to be "cool" or "fun" in any way. They're meant to be disturbing.

Okay, so why is it that a brutal death scene involving Lara is supposed to make me "feel" for her, while a brutal death scene for Isaac or Leon is supposed to gross me out or shock me? I mean, I don't think the scripted death sequences in Dead Space ever would have the argument "well, they're supposed to make you feel for Isaac." Am I supposed to be more disgusted by these scenes and feel for her just because she's a woman? Because that's dumb.

You can twist the argument any way you want, but everybody knows that after Tomb Raider is released, there's going to be a montage of all of Lara's terrible, brutal death scenes on YouTube, just like any other game that uses them. So to say these scenes were inserted because they're supposed to solely evoke emotion without the added bonus of horrific fascination is slightly wrong, in my opinion.

The Tomb Raider series has always had some horror tones running through them. While I haven't followed the new game, it isn't really fair to say that it's copying any of those games, considering that death sequences have been apart of the series for a long while now.

Fair enough. I've only played a little bit of the older games, but I seem to remember a larger focus on puzzle solving and platforming than epic violence. I associate blood and guts with games like Mortal Kombat, Resident Evil, Doom, etc. My memory of Tomb Raider is more of a game that has violence, but it isn't emphasized, while the modern version seems like over-the-top violence both against Lara and the people she's fighting is a big emphasis.

 

[JBourne]

Death animations like these make me actually care whether I die. I feel bad for Lara and what my poor decision making/skills have put her through.

Games need to do more to make me care about my character not less.

Yes, one of the big reasons I like the Dead Space games so much. It's unpleasant to see your head ripped off and replaced by an enemy head who then walks around with your body. It's your punishment for dying.

 

[PFD]

There was a YT video of a particular game from the 90s (forgot the name) showing a kid dying many horrible deaths throughout the game. Anyone got a link to it?

 

[Harlequin]

She was tied up, pushed up against a wall and groped while dude was pushing his body up against her making panting noises, and strangled with the guy on top of her. I consider that attempted rape. They did a pretty good job conveying what the guy was planning.

We can argue about semantics. But he still never actually raped her. And even so the controversy around the scene was blown way out of proportion. It IS disturbing and shocking to watch. Yes. But if you actually see it in context (and see the full scene with Lara succeeding) then it actually makes sense and doesn't feel like a cheap story-telling trick. And it's certainly not anti-feminist.

 

[B-Genius]

So do I and honestly, it really affected me when I first saw it in context. I was stunned and disgusted, and that was amazing. I'd never play a game that centered on just that, but it affected me because of the convincing mix of acting, animating, and camerawork. This was done much better than most other scenes I've seen and that makes me more excited to play the game. Art is movement. That isn't always positive movement.

I think you've make the most interesting point here.

The bolded is the main reason I'm 'comfortable' with the decision to implement such graphic scenes in a game. Of course, there are those who will scoff and say "you think this is art?", but game's shouldn't necessarily be condemned for trying new things, or trying old things in a different way. It's still a young medium, and we need to experiment to get reactions and emotions out of people.

That said, I can also easily see why some people would find such scenes 'exploitative'. There seem to be plenty of other graphic moments in the game that have you share Lara's pain and sympathise with her situation; wanting her to succeed all the more. I don't think players need to be 'punished' as a 'reward' for failure... it sounds really weird, but that seems to be what's happening.

Maybe it depends on one's expectations. You go into a horror film all tense, waiting (hoping) to be shocked. The same was with RE4/Dead Space: those death scenes are a brutal climax to your escalated dread, and serve to enhance the expected experience. You really do fear Dr. Salvador after the first time.

I didn't expect that scene in Tomb Raider, and had a very similar, over-the-top reaction to Conan (almost child-like in its helplessness to the situation). Perhaps I'm in the minority, as I really haven't been keeping up to date on the franchise/reboot, but people need to know what they're getting themselves in for, particular if there's more brutality to come later on.

 

[Spazznid]

We can argue about semantics. But he still never actually raped her. And even so the controversy around the scene was blown way out of proportion. It IS disturbing and shocking to watch. Yes. But if you actually see it in context (and see the full scene with Lara succeeding) then it actually makes sense and doesn't feel like a cheap story-telling trick. And it's certainly not anti-feminist.

I think that, realistically, rape is an outcome anyone can foresee, but that isn't me saying I'd have a problem with that. These men are the type to rape a woman who is their captive. It's that simple. you can't make a movie about orange juice without mutilating oranges...

 

[JBourne]

There was a YT video of a particular game from the 90s (forgot the name) showing a kid dying many horrible deaths throughout the game. Anyone got a link to it?

Heart of Darkness.

 

[radios shipping overview]

This stuff is lurid and exploitative, and I'm uncomfortable with it being in the games that I play. I didn't like it in RE4 and I don't like it in new games. It's bad when it's a regular death in the game, and it's worse when it's a failure screen for a QTE.

At least Dragon's Lair and The Immortal did it with a little humor and abstraction. These days it seems like a game to see who can animate a grislier death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUZsWwLMk9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4a2LpbPbu4

 

[Harlequin]

Okay, so why is it that a brutal death scene involving Lara is supposed to make me "feel" for her, while a brutal death scene for Isaac or Leon is supposed to gross me out or shock me? I mean, I don't think the scripted death sequences in Dead Space ever would have the argument "well, they're supposed to make you feel for Isaac." Am I supposed to be more disgusted by these scenes and feel for her just because she's a woman? Because that's dumb.

You can twist the argument any way you want, but everybody knows that after Tomb Raider is released, there's going to be a montage of all of Lara's terrible, brutal death scenes on YouTube, just like any other game that uses them. So to say these scenes were inserted because they're supposed to solely evoke emotion without the added bonus of horrific fascination is slightly wrong, in my opinion.

Why wouldn't they make you feel for Isaac or Leon? I'd think you'd feel for someone dying such horrible deaths no matter the gender. But if anything, I'd say it's got more to do with how the characters are presented than with their gender. When developers have got female protagonists nowadays, the usually try pretty hard to give them somewhat realistic personalities. They try not to make them too stereotypical because they know that they'd have a mob with pitchforks coming their way if they did. Just like in this TR game. Lara is portrayed as a relatively realistic, believable character. A young person who's just gotten out of university and has never been confronted with situations like the ones she has to face throughout the game. So that's obviously going to make you care more for her than for some generic, stereotypical soldier. I mean, a realistic character is simply going to be more relatable.

Which leads me back to the different portrayals of men and women in games. With male characters nobody gives a shit if they're stereotypical. Male characters are oftentimes as flat as a piece of paper. They don't really have any problems with killing people, they might sometimes struggle a little but they get never too emotional. If they had developed this game but instead of having Lara as the protagonist have a male protagonist who's also inexperienced and just gotten out of university, it would be completely realistic and believable for him to break out in tears, as well, TBH (and I'm sure these horrible deaths would make one feel for him just as much as they make one feel for Lara). But men showing emotional weakness is still somewhat of a no-go in our society (especialy among some of the demographics which make up large parts of the gaming community). So is there sexism at work here? Sure. But there's nothing anti-feminist about it.

 

[Alfredo]

Eh, it's still cartoon violence. A bunch of polygons getting murdered. It's gross, yeah, but that's kind of the point. If it's an M-rated game, it's fair.

It's funny. For some games like RE4 and Dead Space, people praise the death scenes because they recognize a lot of work went into them, especially into scenes that not everyone is going to see. It's that "attention to detail" thing or whatever.

Having said that, I still find it difficult for me to watch R-rated violence in movies. Having real people in violent situations just makes me feel really uncomfortable. But the cartoony people in video games? Yeah, sure, whatever.

Also, I have never played a Tomb Raider game in my life, so I don't know if such death scenes should be expected of that series or not.

 

[Omni]

Okay that game has peaked my interest with that scene. Are there more 'scripted deaths' like those?

 

[Spazznid]

Okay that game has peaked my interest with that scene. Are there more 'scripted deaths' like those?

There was another one when you are parachuting where Lara gets impaled through the stomach by a tree branch. This was in the same "Hub" so I assume there will be plenty.

Also in the beginning, there are boulders that can fall on you and those are scripted death scenes.

 

[Harlequin]

Okay that game has peaked my interest with that scene. Are there more 'scripted deaths' like those?

Yeah. There are scenes where she gets squashed by falling rocks, torn apart by a wolf (the character model stays intact but the animation is rather...gruesome), strangled to death and there are probably quite a few more which we haven't seen yet.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

Take a look at this:

Heart Of Darkness Death compilation.

Some of these are very unsettling.

 

[Spazznid]

Take a look at this:

Heart Of Darkness Death compilation.

Some of these are very unsettling.

Reminded me of how much I hate dying in Limbo...

 

[UrbanRats]

EVERYONE

--
I'm ok with the gore, it has to get a point across and it usually does.
The problem i had with the new Tomb Raider "relationship" with violence it's that it takes it to such extremes that it loses real power and it becomes comical.

The power of death scenes in the old Tomb Raiders, was the juxtaposition with the slow paced and dry gameplay sections.
In the new Tomb Raider not only they are constantly throwing shit in your face, but they constantly beat Lara up, every step of the way, which renders everything like the horror version of a bad slapstick comedy routine.. which may even sound cool, but it's not executed to that intent and doesn't really seem to deliver.

These are just, though, my preliminary impression, as i've not played the game yet.

 

[sn00zer]

Gaming is going through a 'Saw' period...remember when Saw came out and suddenly there were a ton of Saw-like movies ie. Hostel....its now like every game needs a Saw moment in it

 

[sleepykyo]

Okay that game has peaked my interest with that scene. Are there more 'scripted deaths' like those?

You decide. The death compilations have already started.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g85KcMFmI1Y

edit: I probably should linked part 2 instead. Oh well.

 

[Big Chungus]

Phantasmagoria

NWS/NLS:
http://youtu.be/TLzVrfPwyaY?t=3m38s

 

[Spazznid]

Gaming is going through a 'Saw' period...remember when Saw came out and suddenly there were a ton of Saw-like movies ie. Hostel....its now like every game needs a Saw moment in it

Eventually we'll find a perfect balance.











And then something else will happen (Animal Games...)

 

[loganclaws]

From a game design perspective, I think that these animations make no sense whatsoever. It's enouraging the player to die to see additional game content; in this case special death animations. It fucking ridiculous. Resources should be spent elsewhere.

 

[Spazznid]

From a game design perspective, I think that these animations make no sense whatsoever. It's enouraging the player to die to see additional game content; in this case special death animations. It fucking ridiculous. Resources should be spent elsewhere.

Like multiplayer....

Sarcasm.

I like these more than the prospect of multiplayer.

 

[Incendiary]

Lara is portrayed as a relatively realistic, believable character. A young person who's just gotten out of university and has never been confronted with situations like the ones she has to face throughout the game. So that's obviously going to make you care more for her than for some generic, stereotypical soldier. I mean, a realistic character is simply going to be more relatable.

Except it doesn't. At least, not in my case. Yeah, it's great if the character is more realistic and easier to relate to, because that's good character design and development. The problem is the cognitive dissonance that is created with these over-the-top death sequences. It doesn't matter how realistic the character is if the sequences are bombastic, gory, and excessively bloody for the sake of shock value.

Lara's impalement in the Conan video and OP's gif didn't make me wince or feel bad for Lara or even feel disturbed. It made me think of Hot Fuzz (violent image, also spoiler for the movie). And in that movie the excessive, over-the-top impalement was played for laughs as right after the guy says "Owwwww, this really huuuuuurts."

If the producers of the game really wanted it to be more realistic and for the deaths to mean something, they shouldn't be so over-the-top and instead make simpler, more realistic cinematic deaths if that's the route they want to go. I'd be a hell of a lot more disturbed if Lara simply smashed her head on a rock and then floated lifelessly downstream instead of being graphically impaled with blood spurting everywhere while she struggles and wriggles on the end of the pole like a fish.

 

[Shaanyboi]

This shit goes back to Dirk the Daring. I don't see a problem.

This.

Not to say this is all I'm interested in, or even that i think it's all that awesome. This is meant to be a harsh reboot, and well, they're committed to that. Her just getting poked by a sharp branch and going limp would mean for a far less impactful moment than what they're going for.

 

[sleepykyo]

From a game design perspective, I think that these animations make no sense whatsoever. It's enouraging the player to die to see additional game content; in this case special death animations. It fucking ridiculous. Resources should be spent elsewhere.

Gore sells and Lara dying is a very popular thing it seems. It doesn't need to make any sense beyond that.

 

[Yasae]

Phantasmagoria

NWS/NLS:
http://youtu.be/TLzVrfPwyaY?t=3m38s

Yikes.

 

[Noogy]

Just saw that spike through the head gif. Yeah, that's just ridiculously gruesome.

I'm 36 and don't need to see that sort of immature nonsense. This game seems geniunely cool, but all this over the top content is silly.

 

[Harlequin]

Except it doesn't. At least, not in my case. Yeah, it's great if the character is more realistic and easier to relate to, because that's good character design and development. The problem is the cognitive dissonance that is created with these over-the-top death sequences. It doesn't matter how realistic the character is if the sequences are bombastic, gory, and excessively bloody for the sake of shock value.

Lara's impalement in the Conan video and OP's gif didn't make me wince or feel bad for Lara or even feel disturbed. It made me think of Hot Fuzz (violent image, also spoiler for the movie). And in that movie the excessive, over-the-top impalement was played for laughs as right after the guy says "Owwwww, this really huuuuuurts."

If the producers of the game really wanted it to be more realistic and for the deaths to mean something, they shouldn't be so over-the-top and instead make simpler, more realistic cinematic deaths if that's the route they want to go. I'd be a hell of a lot more disturbed if Lara simply smashed her head on a rock and then floated lifelessly downstream instead of being graphically impaled with blood spurting everywhere while she struggles and wriggles on the end of the pole like a fish.

*sigh* OF COURSE they didn't. Because you watched them out of context and haven't actualy played the parts of the game before them. You get to know Lara throughout the game and start relating to her. These scenes are only ever going to have the impact they're supposed to have if you actually play them in context. Otherwise they're just going to be a random 3D character model getting impaled.

 

[yogloo]

I hate how all thugs die holding their head in arkham asylum.

 

[Harlequin]

I hate how all thugs die holding their head in arkham asylum.

Haha. NONE of the enemies in Arkham Asylum die (as far as I remember). They're just unconscious. Batman doesn't usually kill people .

 

[Espada]

This comes with the territory of a game presented in realistic fashion. Some developers simply want to illustrate just how dangerous the environment is, and one of the best ways to do that is by scripting gruesome deaths. It also serves to make the character seem that much more badass to navigate veritable circuses of death and come out on top.

It just comes with the territory.