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[Vinci]

Yanno...you're completely right.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 have been complete failures.

It's MMOs or nothing people!

I'm not agreeing with him outright, but... MMOs are a completely different scale of production and expense and potential revenue. Do I think Old Republic failing would ruin Bioware? No. Would it hurt the amount of support and creative freedom they currently receive? Yes, it probably would.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

A company failing to compete with WoW should not be automatically viewed as a failure. The success of WoW was a "perfect storm" and I highly doubt it will ever occur again with an MMO.

Bioware is slowly, slowly approaching the level of status as a developer that only a few companies have the luxury of being at such as Valve and Blizzard.

They're not going to do it with an MMO.



Back to the thread.

Activision sucks.

 

[Dan Yo]

Yanno...you're completely right.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 have been complete failures.

It's MMOs or nothing people!

Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't going to recoup the 1 billion that EA payed for them. I think it's safe to say that when they invested in Bioware, they were investing in something potentially much larger. I believe EA even said as much.

 

[Vinci]

A company failing to compete with WoW should not be automatically viewed as a failure.

I'm not talking about competing with WoW; I'm talking about being relevant enough to exist for a long period of time to make back what are obviously very huge production costs associated with the game's development. MMOs cost hundreds of millions of dollars, according to Mark Jacobs, the former head of EA's MMO division. And that's for something like Warhammer Online, nevermind a title as massive and ambitious as Old Republic. Mark Jacobs? He's out of a job, not only because Warhammer failed to take on WoW but it failed to be a product capable of retaining a sizable playerbase.

That's what I mean when I use the term 'failing.'

Bioware is slowly, slowly approaching the level of status as a developer that only a few companies have the luxury of being at such as Valve and Blizzard.

They're not going to do it with an MMO.

Valve is independent and Blizzard has achieved its current status due to massively long-selling titles like Diablo and Warcraft (which are still sold fairly often in big box stores), nevermind their insane success with WoW. Bioware is nowhere near the level of Blizzard at the moment. Don't kid yourself.

Activision sucks.

This, however, I agree with.

 

[Dresden]

If The Old Republic can maintain one million subscribers, it would be a huge success for them. WoW-like numbers just aren't possible, as long as WoW still exists.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't going to recoup the 1 billion that EA payed for them. I think it's safe to say that when they invested in Bioware, they were investing in something potentially much larger. I believe EA even said as much.

I think it's also safe to say that they are not expecting even a five or possibly even ten year return on investement when it comes to how much they spent to acquire Bioware.


Your "something potentially much larger"
does not necessarily mean the Star Wars MMO. Of course, EA will want a greater foothold in the MMO space simply because as one of the bigger publishers, shareholders (especially the ones that know nothing about the industry but think they do) will have an expectation that EA is going after the MMO dollars.

I believe EA made a statement that all of their forthcoming games will have a multiplayer/online aspect to them and that alone might be their "big thing". Four player Dragon Age? Three player, squad-based Mass Effect 3?

That's big. Really big.

Unless the Star Wars MMO fails spectacularly, which I doubt it will, (although it WILL be a cluster-fuck for the first twelve months methinks) Bioware will keep chugging along. I can't help but think that Bioware is the only sure-shot that EA has at the moment. (not to be disparaging about the other EA dev houses but they're certainly not Bioware.)

 

[poppabk]

I believe EA made a statement that all of their forthcoming games will have a multiplayer/online aspect to them and that alone might be their "big thing".

I believe that was Ubisoft.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

Valve is independent and Blizzard has achieved its current status due to massively long-selling titles like Diablo and Warcraft (which are still sold fairly often in big box stores), nevermind their insane success with WoW. Bioware is nowhere near the level of Blizzard at the moment. Don't kid yourself.

I think what is hurting Bioware is that they haven't had any success at all with hitting the hardcore-casual market that seems to get so much enjoyment out of grind grind grinding away in Diablo games and WoW.

I think in time, Bioware COULD be on a level of Blizzard and Valve regarding an ability to simply do what they want and take as long as they want to make it but it'll been a long time still.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I believe that was Ubisoft.

Almost thought I was wrong.

Then I found this.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/all-ea-titles-“will-have-an-online-component”

 

[Vinci]

I think what is hurting Bioware is that they haven't had any success at all with hitting the hardcore-casual market that seems to get so much enjoyment out of grind grind grinding away in Diablo games and WoW.

I think in time, Bioware COULD be on a level of Blizzard and Valve regarding an ability to simply do what they want and take as long as they want to make it but it'll been a long time still.

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to achieve that. Just making it clear that they're nowhere near the level of Valve and Blizzard. And in all honesty, Old Republic is their best chance of getting closer to that level. But even if it's really successful, it would be nearly impossible for them to hit quite the same freedom as Valve and Blizzard. Valve, due to their independence, and Blizzard because WoW simply makes SO MUCH DAMN MONEY.

 

[poppabk]

Almost thought I was wrong.

Then I found this.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/all-ea-titles-“will-have-an-online-component”

Sorry. So in the future all EA and Ubisoft games will have some kind of online component.

 

[bigdaddygamebot]

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to achieve that. Just making it clear that they're nowhere near the level of Valve and Blizzard. And in all honesty, Old Republic is their best chance of getting closer to that level. But even if it's really successful, it would be nearly impossible for them to hit quite the same freedom as Valve and Blizzard. Valve, due to their independence, and Blizzard because WoW simply makes SO MUCH DAMN MONEY.

WoW is like the asteroid that hit the planet and wiped out all the dinosaurs.

Another MMO could come along and do the same thing that WoW has done but I don't think I'm going to see it in my lifetime.

I don't particularly enjoy WoW but I certainly recognize that WoW is "special"

I don't want to give the impression that I think Bioware is close to Valve and Blizzard. I just think they're moving in that direction and I think they're capable of eventually reaching it.

 

[Vinci]

WoW is like the asteroid that hit the planet and wiped out all the dinosaurs.

Another MMO could come along and do the same thing that WoW has done but I don't think I'm going to see it in my lifetime.

Odds are, you'll see something not too dissimilar: Whatever MMO Blizzard is working on next.

 

[Kittonwy]

I think what is hurting Bioware is that they haven't had any success at all with hitting the hardcore-casual market that seems to get so much enjoyment out of grind grind grinding away in Diablo games and WoW.

I think in time, Bioware COULD be on a level of Blizzard and Valve regarding an ability to simply do what they want and take as long as they want to make it but it'll been a long time still.

Blizzard hit the jackpot with WOW, they were at the right place at the right time, the odds are against Bioware doing the same, especially with WOW as top dog, their single player RPGs will always be massively expensive to make and massively expensive to market just to achieve success, and will never be able to create the kind of revenue stream that WOW has created for Blizzard.

Why are we talking about Bioware again?

I wonder who's going to pick up West and Zampella, I doubt it will be a platform holder like Sony or MS, Infinity Ward left EA before and EA is already loaded with huge overhead from Bioware, Take Two isn't exactly lean and able afford another expensive team on top of the Housers, Eidos and Warners are small.

 

[Xavien]

WoW is like the asteroid that hit the planet and wiped out all the dinosaurs.

Another MMO could come along and do the same thing that WoW has done but I don't think I'm going to see it in my lifetime.

I don't particularly enjoy WoW but I certainly recognize that WoW is "special"

I don't want to give the impression that I think Bioware is close to Valve and Blizzard. I just think they're moving in that direction and I think they're capable of eventually reaching it.

Also, if it wasn't for the massive success of WoW, Vivendi would've had to sell its games business (because of mounting debts) and maybe, maybe Blizzard would've been wholly owned by activision *shudder*

 

[fizzelopeguss]

black guy on the right, shiny head and smirking

You worked on DoW and Winter assault? fucking /salute.

 

[RavenFox]

Yanno...you're completely right.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 have been complete failures.

It's MMOs or nothing people!

Lol beautiful reply hopefully that shuts him up.

 

[Fredescu]

I believe EA made a statement that all of their forthcoming games will have a multiplayer/online aspect to them and that alone might be their "big thing". Four player Dragon Age? Three player, squad-based Mass Effect 3?

That's big. Really big.

Dragon Age already has an online component in the social site. That's all they're talking about.

 

[Anso]

VALKYRAY
Banned

I stand corrected! That's a pretty tag

 

[Twig]

Bioware is slowly, slowly approaching the level of status as a developer that only a few companies have the luxury of being at such as Valve and Blizzard.

Valve is completely independent (and still brings in loads of cash, in no small part thanks to Steam), and Blizzard, despite being part of Activision, does whatever the fuck they want because they were so goddamn powerful to begin with..

Bioware is owned by EA.

The day that happened they basically nullified any chance of ever reaching that status.

EDIT: Oh beaten like a two-dollar whore. ):

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

 

[Kapura]

I think the next time a developer is going super saiyan, we'll see the signs. I don't think any developer is clise yet, but I think IW's choice to go modern, which basically established the modern military shooter as a supergenre, could have put them ahead of that curve and perhaps become somethig beautiful. Impossible under Activision, though.

I may just be a Halo fanboy, but I think Bungie may have potential to go mega in the next five to ten years. They've made high quality games before being Microsofted, and now that they're split they are going to work on new IP. Halo has been incredibly successful an I think that they have learned lessons that you can't if your a small indie developer. Want to see how much they're deviating from the Halo formula for Reach before I can what they'll do independently though.

 

[templeusox]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

Eh. The story has lost its legs already.

 

[Ether_Snake]

From what I understand, two Activision executives were using IW resources to pitch a new IP to a competitor, ready to leave ship upon getting the deal, indirectly leading to many IW devs leaving as well eventually. Total breach of contract if this is true, and the two guys probably have a non-competitive clause that will prevent them from working for anyone for at least a year now. I definitly don't like Kotick because I think all of Activision's recent successes have been from acquisitions, while every actual initiatives of their own have been poor choices (Prototype, Blur, Tony Hawk, Singularity (is that game out yet?), etc.). They have horrible management. But to put all the blame on Activision in this particular case is currently unfounded.

 

[DarkJC]

Crazy what Activision tried to pull. It'll be interesting to see this lawsuit play out, although I guess it will take a while.

 

[GillianSeed79]

My big fear for BioWare is that the the KOTOR MMO will fail. Hell even it underperforms what then? Even if it doesn't fail I fear for Bioware. One bad game or sales underperformance these days and it's bye bye.

 

[Kapura]

I'd love to see how Activision responds. I don't think this is the full story yet, but Activision had better put something hard on the table to prevent being completely demonized.

 

[MacBosse]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

OK, here we go.

 

[FLEABttn]

From what I understand, two Activision executives were using IW resources to pitch a new IP to a competitor, ready to leave ship upon getting the deal, indirectly leading to many IW devs leaving as well eventually. Total breach of contract if this is true, and the two guys probably have a non-competitive clause that will prevent them from working for anyone for at least a year now. I definitly don't like Kotick because I think all of Activision's recent successes have been from acquisitions, while every actual initiatives of their own have been poor choices (Prototype, Blur, Tony Hawk, Singularity (is that game out yet?), etc.). They have horrible management. But to put all the blame on Activision in this particular case is currently unfounded.

Non-compete clauses mean dick in California.

 

[geeko]

I would love to see the modern warfare label taken away from Activisions dirty hands. As bad as MW2 seems to some of you guys already, I can only imagine what horrible milked COD products activision is thinking of creating.

 

[water_wendi]

Yanno...you're completely right.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 have been complete failures.

It's MMOs or nothing people!

Well given the stuff that happened with Westwood i wouldnt be surprised if EA did something like that again. Afaik, Westwoods games and IPs were all moderately or very successful. Earth and Beyond reception, however, wasnt to the liking of EA so Westwood was gutted.

 

[GillianSeed79]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

The good thing about this is whenever someone sues the person being sued has to file an answer, which should spell out exactly why Activision fired them.

 

[Rapping Granny]

It would be awesome if they get the COD rights and make no games out of it. It would really piss Activision off.

 

[templeusox]

This is from Klep's write-up on G4:

Here's the full passage.

"Modern Warfare 2 is arguably one of the most successful games in history and together with Call of Duty, has generated more than $3 billion in sales for Activision. In addition, Activision seized control of the Infinity Ward studio, to which Activision had previously granted creative control over all Modern Warfare-branded games. The suit was filed to vindicate the rights of West and Zampella to be paid the compensation they have earned, as well as the contractual rights Activision granted to West and Zampella to control Modern Warfare-branded games."

Let that idea sink in.

"Activision has refused to honor the terms of its agreements and is intentionally flouting the fundamental public policy of this State (California) that employers must pay their employees what they have rightfully earned," said Schwartz in the release. "Instead of thanking, lauding, or just plain paying Jason and Vince for giving Activision the most successful entertainment product ever offered to the public, last month Activision hired lawyers to conduct a pretextual 'investigation' into unstated and unsubstantiated charges of 'insubordination' and 'breach of fiduciary duty,' which then became the grounds for their termination on Monday, March 1st."

According to the release, the suit is alleging "breach of contract, breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, wrong termination in violation of public policy, and declaratory relief."

The implications of this lawsuit are tremendous and far-reaching.

I mean, the implications are as far-reaching as any frivolous can be. I guess there's always a chance that the party bringing the suit wins, but it's slim. Here, there is no way they expect to win this suit in court or ever re-gain control of the CoD brand. It's just a chip they hope to play in order to fend off litigation from Activision. I understand Klepeck is really excited about this story, but he's getting a little carried away. There are really no implications here. As ether_snake suggested, this is just another case of douchebags vs. douchebags. Any time you see the phrase "against public policy" in a suit, you know its just people grasping at straws.

 

[Loxley]

My big fear for BioWare is that the the KOTOR MMO will fail. Hell even it underperforms what then? Even if it doesn't fail I fear for Bioware. One bad game or sales underperformance these days and it's bye bye.

The thing is, Bioware is a big enough company that they have multiple projects going at the same time. If TOR fails, which I seriously doubt it will (we're talking about Star Wars fans here) they have Mass Effect as well as Dragon Age to fall back on, both of which have sold huge numbers since their release. I wouldn't be too concerned about them.

Besides, the studios that do get closed after a game fails (Free Radical and Haze seem to be the primary example) it's often because A.) The company really only has enough manpower to focus one- maybe two- games at a time, and B.) Said game(s) see constant delays, are buggy messes upon release and as a result sell next to nothing. As such the publisher questions if it's a could idea to give these guys millions of dollars if there's a chance their next game will take forever, and fail critically and commercially in addition to being riddled with bugs and unpolished content.

 

[geeko]

It would be awesome if they get the COD rights and make no games out of it. It would really piss Activision off.

seems they want the rights to the 'modern warfare' label too, not sure bout the COD name though.

quote from Kotaku:

"Interestingly, in addition to seeking the unpaid royalties, the pair are also after "the contractual rights Activision granted to West and Zampella to control Modern Warfare-branded games". Whether that means they want to make "Modern Warfare" games without Activision, or would seek to have the brand buried if it's without their input, is unclear. We'll update when we hear more."


http://kotaku.com/5485295/infinity-ward-founders-suing-activision-over-unpaid-royalties

 

[Rapping Granny]

I would love to see the modern warfare label taken away from Activisions dirty hands. As bad as MW2 seems to some of you guys already, I can only imagine what horrible milked COD products activision is thinking of creating.

umm.

 

[geeko]

umm.

nice avatar BTW, Danny Heatley FTW..... well Sharks FTW... but anyway. I know they somewhat milk it, but not to the level of Guitar Hero milking... yet.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

The initial language in my story was a bit presumptuous. The suit could be a) control of the Modern Warfare brand outside of Activision b) preventing Activision from producing further Modern Warfare games without their input c) related to proof they did not breach their contract.

 

[geeko]

The initial language in my story was a bit presumptuous. The suit could be a) control of the Modern Warfare brand outside of Activision b) preventing Activision from producing further Modern Warfare games without their input c) related to proof they did not breach their contract.

My guess is D) All of the above :lol

 

[Neuromancer]

umm.

Yeah too bad World at War was actually a pretty decent game that did things IW would never lower themselves to do (like co-op campaign).

 

[GillianSeed79]

I really doubt the suit is really about them retaining the MW brand. It's about money. Activision could just offer them some pocket change, settle and they wouldn't be allowed to talk about the settlement.

 

[ghostmind]

It's on like Donkey Kong.

 

[oracrest]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

Good.

 

[Frank "Trashman" Reynolds]

I really doubt the suit is really about them retaining the MW brand. It's about money. Activision could just offer them some pocket change, settle and they wouldn't be allowed to talk about the settlement.

The MW brand is money.

 

[duckroll]

Sounds like Itagaki-gate.

 

[Poyunch]

So West and Zampella are suing Activision now?
http://tinyurl.com/yj9gsqq

I don't think they have a chance but I hope they win in the courts.

 

[NeoUltima]

Good.

Why's that?

 

[AstroLad]

hey i know some people at o'melveny. they're no foolin'

 

[Aselith]

I don't think they have a chance but I hope they win in the courts.

They'll get at least royalties paid out in some form. I really doubt they'll get control of the brand though. If it even kinda appears that they might possibly win, Activision will start throwing barrels of money at them above and beyond their royalties to keep control of the brand. It's way too lucrative a franchise to let go of.