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Sega Trip; a lost console add on for Saturn Shenmue and VF3 was real

VGEsoterica

Member
For the longest time rumors had it that Saturn was getting an enhancement cart so that Virtua Fighter 3 could run on Saturn with "close to Model 3 performance". But obviously that never happened. Everyone knew Shenmue started life on Saturn until it was moved to Dreamcast...but that too was developed with the add on cart in mind; the Sega "TRIP", a Hitachi SH-3 based upgrade to Saturn. Similar to the proposed Lockheed Martin designed add on and the 3DO M2 add-on / Saturn 2.

Clearly Sega pulled their heads out of their asses and didn't release it as by that point consumer confidence in Sega add on's was below basement level...but its a fun bit of confirmation from ex-Sega engineers that worked on the project

 
This doesn't surprise me at all. I still have my 32x, and the dumbass metal inserts.

I wonder how much that package is worth now...
 
No spacer on mine. I had an original model, and got it with cosmic carnage. Half the time, only the background was displayed, if the connection wasn't perfect, of memory serves.

I need to fire that bastard up again...
It's a pain to line it up
 
The capability of the Saturn by itself without this add-on.
I explained this, but my words are being read but not understood.

forget about vdp2 for a minute. You know what's left ? Half a Playstation ( This means half the frame rate and inferior effects if the game is in the same settings, in other words, it's not possible to equalize)

what's the function of VDP2 ? To add 2D elements to 3D worlds, like in Panzer Dragoon where only the dragon is polygonal. Cool, the game is beautiful, but there are limits to the use of vdp2, it can't be used in 3D games, polygonal worlds, or dynamic games, not even in racing games, because its use is restricted to very specific games

Is it possible to understand and accept this? Or will you keep fighting like the other user did ?


I know that people claimed VF3 and Shenmue could run on it, but maybe it seems that it needed some added power to do so and that the system by itself was not capable enough.

In a way it sounds similar to the N64 Expansion Pak.
well, I'm skeptical about this "64x" thing; in my opinion, it's just the same old bullshit involving a real project called Pluto. That would be a kind of "Pro console" based on the Sega Saturn, obviously, there's no way to plug an extra video card into the Saturn. Now they've returned to the same subject, but this time calling it Trip, if this module existed, it would be in the Sega Pluto. This Sega Pluto was abandoned in favor of a true next-gen console because the Pluto would have had to remain tethered to the Saturn, and that wouldn't have solved the problem.
 
I'm sure we've talked about a Saturn add-on and there are zero ways to know if the demos we saw used it. Is the claim dual SH2s, a next gen successor SH3 (with games way beyond any 32/64bit system despite all being 2D arcade shmups, only ported forward to the next gen), a mystery 3D DSP (no known SH3 DSP did 3D), VDP1, VDP2, etc. would function in parallel via a cartridge slot that wasn't even ideal for a ram/rom bump (and I guess Shenmue bundled would cost $199 like a Dreamcast as a system/power brick upgrade, 32X Redux: It'll Work This Time)? And the result is single digit fps? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Shin Ishikawa previously said the Saturn footage in Shenmue II is from a stock Saturn 🤷‍♂️
Though he didn't reveal the existence of an add-on, I guess it was still too soon and it's not a lie.

Yu Suzuki has mentioned an "acceleration board" and that the Saturn version went as far as Guilin.
Weird he wasn't asked to clarify further! The closest to Shenmue style Saturn got (with good fps):

I ran that rolling so many times, this was clearly a very ambitious, meticulously hand crafted (with heavy use of VDP2 and careful scene composition, just look at that fake city scenery) project Sega should have backed when they had the chance. The finished game Saturn missed out on was meh 🤷‍♂️
 
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I explained this, but my words are being read but not understood.

forget about vdp2 for a minute. You know what's left ? Half a Playstation ( This means half the frame rate and inferior effects if the game is in the same settings, in other words, it's not possible to equalize)

what's the function of VDP2 ? To add 2D elements to 3D worlds, like in Panzer Dragoon where only the dragon is polygonal. Cool, the game is beautiful, but there are limits to the use of vdp2, it can't be used in 3D games, polygonal worlds, or dynamic games, not even in racing games, because its use is restricted to very specific games

Is it possible to understand and accept this? Or will you keep fighting like the other user did ?



well, I'm skeptical about this "64x" thing; in my opinion, it's just the same old bullshit involving a real project called Pluto. That would be a kind of "Pro console" based on the Sega Saturn, obviously, there's no way to plug an extra video card into the Saturn. Now they've returned to the same subject, but this time calling it Trip, if this module existed, it would be in the Sega Pluto. This Sega Pluto was abandoned in favor of a true next-gen console because the Pluto would have had to remain tethered to the Saturn, and that wouldn't have solved the problem.
I actually wasn't one of the ones fighting you in that other thread man lol, I was just wanting to see your perspective on this topic because it relates to the other one.

I was the guy who asked you about RE 4 in the other thread because I was confused about the PS2 port, and you clearly explained your perspective on the matter and on this too.
 
I'm sure we've talked about a Saturn add-on and there are zero ways to know if the demos we saw used it. Is the claim dual SH2s, a next gen successor SH3 (with games way beyond any 32/64bit system despite all being 2D arcade shmups, only ported forward to the next gen), a mystery 3D DSP (no known SH3 DSP did 3D), VDP1, VDP2, etc. would function in parallel via a cartridge slot that wasn't even ideal for a ram/rom bump (and I guess Shenmue bundled would cost $199 like a Dreamcast as a system/power brick upgrade, 32X Redux: It'll Work This Time)? And the result is single digit fps? 🤷‍♂️

In the Next level interview that you linked, its clear that it was running on a stock Saturn and it looks that way too. Not that I'm a fan of using that footage as proof of what a Saturn could do. It's not finished, and we have no way of running it on an actual Saturn, unlike Fighting Force


I remember Andy Mee telling Mean Machines that the enhancement cart was also going to fit in the back of the Saturn, so it sounded like it was using the Mpeg port?.
I have to hold my hand up too, I thought all the talk of the enhancement cart was just media speculation and miscommunication over the 4-Meg cart, until Yu Suzuki confirmed it with an interview a few years back
 
Probably a good thing in hindsight that it was abandoned in favor of a new system, the last thing Saturn developers needed having to program for additional processors, Saturn already had 8. Sega seemed to have a lot of different idea's for their next gen system around that time:
  • The PowerVR/SH4 based system that we know as the Dreamcast
  • The 3DFX/PowerPC prototype
  • We know there were plans for a scaled down Real3D based console that was similar in concept to their Model 3 arcade board
  • 3DO M2/MX/Cagent based hardware
  • Nvidia based hardware, as Sega had investments in Nvidia at the time
 
I remember Andy Mee telling Mean Machines that the enhancement cart was also going to fit in the back of the Saturn, so it sounded like it was using the Mpeg port?
Seems to me that's very impractical, the mpeg slot shares the same a bus as the cartridge slot, with more direct access to the v bus. There would be issues with two-way (if even possible since it was clearly designed as an one way street for videos) real time 3d data transfer between that and the rest components (the PlayStation bus between components is faster and the system is still hindered by data congestion) unless it completely bypassed everything, did all cpu/2d/3d acceleration processing and fed the result to the vdp2 as a fully finished frame the vdp2 then displays as a fullscreen background without trying to bother with any back and forth communication with the rest components (so it would also have its own ram pools and its own vdp2 on top of that SH3 and mystery 3D DSP because in the Shenmue demos we do see it have 2D background layers in the same use cases as on a stock Saturn, unless, again, what we've seen is stock Saturn like Ishikawa said and the unseen extra hardware remake would look more like halfway between the Saturn and Dreamcast version, relying mostly on full 3D scenes and not 2D layers and tricks the stock Saturn needs). I dunno 🤷‍♂️
 
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This was my biggest disappointment with the Saturn I was so looking forward to this thing. I was rumored in all the mags.
 
What could have been is all I can say. I hate what Sega became after going 3rd party. They're not really even a major 3rd party player anymore.
 
In fairness, the Sega CD was probably Sega's one and only truly successful add-on, you take out its hideous FMV capabilities, and it was a capable add on in its own right, Core Design would have told you that, they were the ones who knew how to tap into it...and I think it was here on Neo GAF that it was said add-ons are notorious for not selling well in general...
 
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In fairness, the Sega CD was probably Sega's one and only truly successful add-on, you take out its hideous FMV capabilities, and it was a capable add on in its own right, Core Design would have told you that, they were the ones who knew how to tap into it...and I think it was here on Neo GAF that it was said add-ons are notorious for not selling well in general...

Technically the pc engine cd would be the most successful, but sega cd was great but too expensive to really take hold.
I loved it though.
 
Technically the pc engine cd would be the most successful, but sega cd was great but too expensive to really take hold.
I loved it though.
Yeah something about using CDs in the early 90s that was cooler than ever. Ahead of its time.
 
299.99 cib or ~180 ish loose.


Ha!
I would put two chairs close together and then turn the "tower of power" upside down between the two and gravity did the trick.
Amazing isn't it? The 32X was one of the most poorly conceived pieces of videogame hardware ever produced.

On a related note, I was very close to getting an Atari Jaguar when I was younger(gift from an older sibling)Well, that fell through and I never got it, but imagine my surprise when I found out that it became dental equipment after it failed.

The videogame world is hilarious at times.
 
stress i need a drink GIF
 
Technically the pc engine cd would be the most successful, but sega cd was great but too expensive to really take hold.
I loved it though.
Yeah but PC engine was first and foremost a Japan exclusive? Where as Sega CD was available world-wide
 
Seems to me that's very impractical, the mpeg slot shares the same a bus as the cartridge slot, with more direct access to the v bus. There would be issues with two-way (if even possible since it was clearly designed as an one way street for videos) real time 3d data transfer between that and the rest components (the PlayStation bus between components is faster and the system is still hindered by data congestion) unless it completely bypassed everything, did all cpu/2d/3d acceleration processing and fed the result to the vdp2 as a fully finished frame the vdp2 then displays as a fullscreen background without trying to bother with any back and forth communication with the rest components (so it would also have its own ram pools and its own vdp2 on top of that SH3 and mystery 3D DSP because in the Shenmue demos we do see it have 2D background layers in the same use cases as on a stock Saturn, unless, again, what we've seen is stock Saturn like Ishikawa said and the unseen extra hardware remake would look more like halfway between the Saturn and Dreamcast version, relying mostly on full 3D scenes and not 2D layers and tricks the Saturn needs). I dunno 🤷‍♂️

Yeah, the idea of 'TRIP' being a plug-in to the Saturn the way 32X was for MegaDrive/Genesis does have me asking some questions. Because like you basically said, the cartridge port on Saturn wasn't really ideal for such a plug-in. I don't think the Saturn's CPUs had any way of directly addressing onboard components of the 'TRIP', and there was no dedicated manager for the SCU within the system.

From what I understand, the SH2s had memory addresses reserved for A-bus peripherals, but only in terms of treating them like external ROM (non-boot/BIOS) and RAM. So I guess what 'TRIP' would've done was handle/accelerate some of the graphics processing on its own, store results into onboard RAM, and then the Saturn would have one of the SH2s access data from that RAM by pointing to the address region where that RAM would be mapped in the SH2's memory space.

And for providing the 'TRIP' necessary data, it'd basically do the same thing. The actual benefit would be that the Saturn & 'TRIP' were processing different parts of the frame in parallel; Saturn could handle the front buffer(s) and the 'TRIP' handling back buffer(s), but in this context, the 'TRIP' assembling partial parts of frames and Saturn completing them.

That's assuming the 'TRIP' wasn't set up like the 32X where it had its own video out and games had to manually decide what layers the 'TRIP' was dedicated to, and syncing the outputs that way. Which was already seemingly difficult with the MegaDrive/32X; I imagine it'd of been a nightmare for Saturn/'TRIP' considering the increased difficulty in 3D rendering vs. 2D,
and Saturn already being more cumbersome to develop for than anything like the MegaDrive.

Tho, I haven't read the Beep 21 article yet; maybe there is deep insight into how 'TRIP' functioned contained in it.

Yeah but PC engine was first and foremost a Japan exclusive? Where as Sega CD was available world-wide

PC-Engine (the HuCard version) itself? That was Japan & America; a Europe (or at least partly Europe) launch was planned but never happened because it failed badly in America, and they were stuck with a warehouse of unsold systems after the initial American launch.

PC-Engine CD got an American release in the form of the TurboDuo, but it was limited to mail-only (& maybe some specialty shops) handled directly by Turbo Technologies (who took over for NEC America as a joint venture between NEC and Hudson Soft due to disappointment over Turbographx-16 market performance). That skipped Europe, too.
 
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If the Saturn was successful, I think they would have tried to release this.

Amazing isn't it? The 32X was one of the most poorly conceived pieces of videogame hardware ever produced.

On a related note, I was very close to getting an Atari Jaguar when I was younger(gift from an older sibling)Well, that fell through and I never got it, but imagine my surprise when I found out that it became dental equipment after it failed.

The videogame world is hilarious at times.
iirc the 3DO M2 ended up being used as like kiosks in places.
 
If the Saturn was successful, I think they would have tried to release this.


iirc the 3DO M2 ended up being used as like kiosks in places.
Amazing. The hype back then(magazines, and all my friends)surrounding the 3DO was insane. There were new consoles seemingly coming out every 6 months, and when we found out Zelda was gonna be on another console (CD-I) insane.

Of all the consoles I've owned(which is a ton of them)my favorite was the TG-16, and the turboexpress. I adored those hu-cards. Cool ass looking tech for the time, that felt surreal in the hand. Imagine a thicker, bigger SD card.

Also, the turboexpress with the "bunny ears" was crazy for the time. The battery life on that thing was like a V-10 engine for gas. Side by side with the Gameboy was hilarious. Playing legendary axe while your buddy was playing ANYTHING on the ghosty Green Gameboy felt like you were from the future.

I remember when videogaming was filled with wonder, and amazement at technology, and new games. Now it's filled with weirdos who laugh at the switch 2 version of a game because of hair, when back in the day, a handheld version of a game, was completely different from its big brother, and always a disappointment.

If then, games on handheld systems, were as close as console versions are today, I honestly think, handheld gaming would be the norm, and a stationary console would be archaic looking. Thats what made the turboexpress so remarkable. Same game cartridge, same game, handheld.

Gaming back then was nirvana.
 
3DO M2 was a MASSIVELY missed opportunity in the history of videogames....it could have right the wrongs of the first 3DO machine...but for some reason it fell through with Sega, and then the eventual buyers Panasonic got cold feet going up against Sony...
 
When you've gone your whole life thinking Sega just put out every add-on idea they had like it was an impulsive disorder.
 
Seems to me that's very impractical, the mpeg slot shares the same a bus as the cartridge slot, with more direct access to the v bus. There would be issues with two-way (if even possible since it was clearly designed as an one way street for videos) real time 3d data transfer between that and the rest components (the PlayStation bus between components is faster and the system is still hindered by data congestion) unless it completely bypassed everything, did all cpu/2d/3d acceleration processing and fed the result to the vdp2 as a fully finished frame the vdp2 then displays as a fullscreen background without trying to bother with any back and forth communication with the rest components (so it would also have its own ram pools and its own vdp2 on top of that SH3 and mystery 3D DSP because in the Shenmue demos we do see it have 2D background layers in the same use cases as on a stock Saturn, unless, again, what we've seen is stock Saturn like Ishikawa said and the unseen extra hardware remake would look more like halfway between the Saturn and Dreamcast version, relying mostly on full 3D scenes and not 2D layers and tricks the Saturn needs). I dunno 🤷‍♂️
Well, that's why Andy Mee said, and to give him credit, he was right about the fact that the booster card did exist and also very right as to why Sonic Xtreme was cancelled so who knows.
I really would have liked to seen what Sonic Adv looked like running on a stocl Saturn, I bet that game was pushing the Saturn to the max and more so than even Shenmue running on a stock Saturn
 
and people wonder why they got into financial trouble
When you had no unity in the company and animosity between the U.S arm and Japan arm, then you are asking for trouble...It wasn't even that bad I guess during the inception/conception of project genesis
 
When you had no unity in the company and animosity between the U.S arm and Japan arm, then you are asking for trouble...It wasn't even that bad I guess during the inception/conception of project genesis
That's just crap made up by that lying twat Tom Kalinske; This add-on made some sense, given it was made to handle the VF3 port


I'm sure if I remember the Andy Mee interview correctly, it was meant to come in at ÂŁ80 price point too.
 
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That's just crap made up by that lying twat Tom Kalinske; This add-on made some sense, given it was made to handle the VF3 port


I'm sure if I remember the Andy Mee interview correctly, it was meant to come in at ÂŁ80 price point too.
Well clearly there was some issue, why would you develop a mushroom that does nothing for your standing in the market, (32x) all the while the attention should be focused on making sure the Saturn is the best it could be ? Seems the US side were the ones who wanted the 32x, not the Japan arm...and wasn't Kalinske the one who was a fan of the spec that would eventually make up the N64? Even he saw that the Saturn's premature release was a bad move from the get-go..
 
Well clearly there was some issue, why would you develop a mushroom that does nothing for your standing in the market, (32x) all the while the attention should be focused on making sure the Saturn is the best it could be ? Seems the US side were the ones who wanted the 32x, not the Japan arm...and wasn't Kalinske the one who was a fan of the spec that would eventually make up the N64? Even he saw that the Saturn's premature release was a bad move from the get-go..
Let's get real, if you hated and disliked SOA so much, you'll never allow them to develop the 32X in the 1st place, A system that was designed to prolong the Mega Drive. That's to overlook that in every interview one saw with Marty Franz, Scott Bayless or Joe Miller, they always sang the praises of the Japanese staff, and I'll defy you to prove otherwise.

And the N64 wasn't great spec and cost a fortune, plus was delayed for 2 years, SEGA was right to turn that down IMO. If you listen to Tom, the 32X was the best thing ever and the only true mass market system and one that was going to outsell the Saturn, N64 and PS1.... Nice one Tom *rollseyes*
 
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Let's get real, if you hated and disliked SOA so much, you'll never allow them to develop the 32X in the 1st place, A system that was designed to prolong the Mega Drive. That's to overlook that in every interview one saw with Marty Franz, Scott Bayless or Joe Miller, they always sang the praises of the Japanese staff, and I'll defy you to prove otherwise.

And the N64 wasn't great spec and cost a fortune, plus was delayed for 2 years, SEGA was right to turn that down IMO. If you listen to Tom, the 32X was the best thing ever and the only true mass market system and one that was going to outsell the Saturn, N64 and PS1.... Nice one Tom *rollseyes*
Yeah but, I read here on NeoGaf that the 32x was in essence a knee-jerk reaction by Sega because of the upcoming release of the Jaguar? If they had any sense at the time, they wouldn't freak out about a manufacturer that was near enough 2nd rate to the competition (From the Gameboy era to the Atari ST era)...you would be confident enough in your 32 bit powerhouse to see off any competition the Jag may have given...then there is that angle about Sega of Japan not wanting to dish out too much details about the specs of the Saturn to their U.S counterpart, or is that false as well? (Just to get clarity on that...)
 
Yeah but, I read here on NeoGaf that the 32x was in essence a knee-jerk reaction by Sega because of the upcoming release of the Jaguar? If they had any sense at the time, they wouldn't freak out about a manufacturer that was near enough 2nd rate to the competition (From the Gameboy era to the Atari ST era)...you would be confident enough in your 32 bit powerhouse to see off any competition the Jag may have given...then there is that angle about Sega of Japan not wanting to dish out too much details about the specs of the Saturn to their U.S counterpart, or is that false as well? (Just to get clarity on that...)
Yes, and if you read on Neo Geo or System 16 forums, SEGA Japan hated the fact that the Mega Drive sold better in the USA, than Japan. So why would they look to SOA to expand the life of the Mega Drive, is beyond me?

And corps were freaking out as you put it.... one wonders why the Super Grafx or Virtual Boy were allowed to pass
 
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