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Self-Defense? You be the judge.

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Was this already posted on GAF? I couldn't find it.

http://cbs3.com/topstories/self.defense.shooting.2.569713.html

HOUSTON (CBS) ― It will be up to a Texas grand jury to decide whether a man who fatally shot two men he thought were robbing his neighbor's home acted within the state's self-defense laws.

The man, who is in his 70s, shot the two suspected burglars Wednesday afternoon in a quiet subdivision of the Houston suburb of Pasadena. He confronted the men as they were leaving through a gate leading to the front yard of his neighbor's home.

No identities have been released.

Police say that just before the shootings, the man called 911 to say he heard glass breaking and saw two men entering the home through a window.

911: "Pasadena 911. What is your emergency?"

Caller: "Burglars breaking into a house next door."

A police spokesman says the man told the dispatcher that he was going to get his gun and stop the break-in.

Caller: "I've got a shotgun, do you want me to stop them?"

911: "Nope, don't do that. Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

The dispatcher repeatedly urged the man to stay calm and stay in his own home, reports CBS News correspondent Hari Sreenivasan.

911: "I've got officers coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house."

Caller: "I understand that, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it and I know it. I have a right to protect myself."

A Texas law strengthening a citizen's right to self-defense, the so-called "castle doctrine," went into effect on Sept. 1. It gives Texans a stronger legal right to use deadly force in their homes, cars and workplaces.

The telephone line then went dead, but the man called police again and told a dispatcher what he was doing.

Caller: "Boom. You're dead." (Sounds of gunshots) "Get the law over here quick. I've managed to get one of them, he's in the front yard over there. He's down, the other one is running down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice.

He shot one suspect in the chest and the other in the side.

Wednesday's shooting "clearly is going to stretch the limits of the self-defense law," said a legal expert.

If the absent homeowner tells police that he asked his neighbor to watch over his property, that could play in the shooter's favor, defense attorney Tommy LaFon, who is also a former Harris County prosecutor, told the Houston Chronicle. "That could put him (the gunman) in an ownership role."

The legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill says it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property.

It "is not designed to have kind of a 'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth told the newspaper. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

Be sure to watch the video. Holy crap.
 
Sounds like he wanted to shoot them to me.

Caller: Can I go shoot them?
911: No, don't do that
Caller: Aww come on, don't be a party pooper. I'm supposed to be allowed to now.
911: No. Don't go out there.
Caller: Bahhh I'm doing it anyway... boom you're dead!

One thing that article and video doesn't address for me:

Were they burglars? Were they in any way threatening that man or his property before he shot them dead?

If the answer to either is no, then it wasn't self defence. It was taking the law into his own hands and choosing to end the lives of two people. Murder.
 
radioheadrule83 said:
Sounds like he wanted to shoot them to me.

Caller: Can I go shoot them?
911: No, don't do that
Caller: Aww come on, don't be a party pooper. I'm supposed to be allowed to now.
911: No. Don't go out there.
Caller: Bahhh I'm doing it anyway... boom you're dead!

One thing that article and video doesn't address for me:

Were they burglars? Were they in any way threatening that man or his property before he shot them dead?

If the answer to either is no, then it wasn't self defence. It was taking the law into his own hands and choosing to end the lives of two people. Murder.

I would think not. You can hear in the video how he is casually like, "here we go [woo hoo]. Boom [headshot!]" He wasn't hysterical in the least until after he killed the first guy, then he was like, 'I had to do it. I had no other choice' laying the grounds for his defense.
 
Sounds like a typical trigger-happy redneck. Reminds me of the japanese foreign exchange student who was shot because he was knocking on the wrong guy's door or went in his yard or something.
 
radioheadrule83 said:
Sounds like he wanted to shoot them to me.

Caller: Can I go shoot them?
911: No, don't do that
Caller: Aww come on, don't be a party pooper. I'm supposed to be allowed to now.
911: No. Don't go out there.
Caller: Bahhh I'm doing it anyway... boom you're dead!

One thing that article and video doesn't address for me:

Were they burglars? Were they in any way threatening that man or his property before he shot them dead?

If the answer to either is no, then it wasn't self defence. It was taking the law into his own hands and choosing to end the lives of two people. Murder.

It said in the article. Yes they were burglers, but they were robbing the neighbor's house
 
demon said:
Sounds like a typical trigger-happy redneck. Reminds me of the japanese foreign exchange student who was shot because he was knocking on the wrong guy's door or went in his yard or something.

yeah i remember that , wasn't he like trick or treating for the first time or something.

At any rate if they were stealing the guy should've gave the police tips on where they fled to and the car they were in, even criminals are worth more than possesions damn...
 
that's not exactly 'self-defence' but I'm sure any lawyer worth his or her salt should be able to get the gunman off, considering he was preventing a couple of burglars from breaking an' entering.
 
Wasn't this posted?...seems similar.

And no not self defense, unless they were ontop of him and about to physically harm him there was no need to let himself even be known or to attack. Usually you're supposed to just let them do whatever they want and hide yourself at all costs unless you have a chance to apprehend(Not: not make them bleed) or they come at you.

And he seemed "excited" from that transcript :/

Edit: Not even his house either. Like I said "Ever since 9-11..." yeah, he seemed gun-ho about the situation.
Timedog said:
Boom! You're dead.....????

Seriously?
:lol This is like some morbid comedy.
 
xaosslug said:
that's not exactly 'self-defence' but I'm sure any lawyer worth his or her salt should be able to get the gunman off, considering he was preventing a couple of burglars from breaking an' entering.

They had already done the breaking and entering. They were exiting the scene. Do you mean future robberies?
 
obviously the burglers were idiots for robbing a neighbor hood with hicks like this. They could have just as easily robbed this guys house and still wound up dead.

2 dead morons and hopefully another put behind bars, win win
 
Joke answer: Shit, that's one badass neighborhood watch program.

Real answer: no, this is vigilantism. He was right to call the cops. If he really wanted to scare them away, he could have gone outside and yelled at them. If they had charged at him at that point or drew guns themselves THEN he could have a valid case for self-defense. He can't just go outside and start blasting away because someone's doing something bad over there.

Castle doctrine and stand-your-ground laws are great laws. They also don't apply here.
 
People, read the article.
A Texas law strengthening a citizen's right to self-defense, the so-called "castle doctrine," went into effect on Sept. 1. It gives Texans a stronger legal right to use deadly force in their homes, cars and workplaces.
 
Too many morons out there to be passing stupid laws like that. I don't see why self-defense can't be determined on a case by case basis.

Dude was practically waiting to shoot someone since 9/1!
 
this shouldnt be self defense.

You cannot kill someone over property.

Something like that happened a few months back in baltimore where a guy killed a man trying to steal his rims after he started to run away.

Self defense is when you, or another person, are in fear of severe bodily harm or death.

HOWEVER this is fucking Texas
 
Az987 said:
this shouldnt be self defense.

You cannot kill someone over property.

Something like that happened a few months back in baltimore where a guy killed a man trying to steal his rims after he started to run away.

Self defense is when you, or another person, are in fear of severe bodily harm or death.

HOWEVER this is fucking Texas

If someone's in your house in the middle of the night, castle doctrine laws enable you to assume the worst, which is also the smart thing to do.

Of course, again, this wasn't his house, and his neighbor was away. The neighbor told him to watch his house for him. He did that, he saw robbers, he called the cops, and then he ran outside with his shotgun.

It seems unlikely he was just in shooting them, even under castle doctrine, but I guess he'll be making his case in court soon enough. He'd have to verify they were on his property, not his neighbors, for starters.
 
Cloudy said:
Dude was practically waiting to shoot someone since 9/1!

:lol

No shit. You could tell by the 911 call it was all he could do to hold himself back. He probably thought his neighbor was a lucky bastard, but since he wasn't home he wasn't about to let such a great opportunity pass by.
 
JayDubya said:
If someone's in your house in the middle of the night, castle doctrine laws enable you to assume the worst, which is also the smart thing to do.

Of course, again, this wasn't his house, and his neighbor was away. The neighbor told him to watch his house for him. He did that, he saw robbers, he called the cops, and then he ran outside with his shotgun.

It seems unlikely he was just in shooting them, even under castle doctrine, but I guess he'll be making his case in court soon enough.
I've been waiting for the day where JayDubya(A.K.A God) would make a msitake. Finally it has come!

If the absent homeowner tells police that he asked his neighbor to watch over his property, that could play in the shooter's favor, defense attorney Tommy LaFon, who is also a former Harris County prosecutor, told the Houston Chronicle. "That could put him (the gunman) in an ownership role."

The legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill says it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property

How nice is his neighbour?
Cloudy said:
Are the guys he shot white or minorities?
No offense Cloudy but I was hoping this didn't need to be brought up. We've already heard the term "redneck", and 'Texas" several times here, and whether these problems exist in Texas prominently or not...the article didn't bring it up and I don't think it needs to man :/
 
Cloudy said:
Are the guys he shot white or minorities?

Does it matter in the least?

CrushDance said:
I've been waiting for the day where JayDubya(A.K.A God) would make a msitake. Finally it has come!

Eh?

Oh, okay. So there's no evidence the neighbor asked him to watch his home, that was just conjecture / hypothetical.
 
JayDubya said:
Does it matter in the least?



Eh?

Oh, okay. So there's no evidence the neighbor asked him to watch his home, that was just conjecture / hypothetical.
I here fore banish you to a far away island:D Just kidding! I really respect your thoughts on a lot of things and agree frequently, just funny seeing you lose something you can't argue over haha.
 
CrushDance said:
just funny seeing you lose something you can't argue over haha.

Um, okay. ;P

Also, when he says they came on the "front yard with me," does he mean his neighbor's front yard or his own? This matters, like, a lot.
 
JayDubya said:
Um, okay. ;P

Also, when he says they came on the "front yard with me," does he mean his neighbor's front yard or his own? This matters, like, a lot.
I took that to mean that the guy went outside to confront them in the neighbor's yard, especially since he went on to say that the one suspected burglar was down in the front yard "over there" (i.e., the neighbor's yard, not his own).
 
human5892 said:
I took that to mean that the guy went outside to confront them in the neighbor's yard, especially since he went on to say that the one suspected burglar was down in the front yard "over there" (i.e., the neighbor's yard, not his own).
Same here. I find it hard to believe they robbed his neighbour and went over to him to say "What are you looking at old man?" and got shot. In the video he says "There they go" or something to that affect, I'm not "shocked" that this happened. But rather by the fact that the guy just seemed to want to shoot people badly.
 
human5892 said:
I took that to mean that the guy went outside to confront them in the neighbor's yard, especially since he went on to say that the one suspected burglar was down in the front yard "over there" (i.e., the neighbor's yard, not his own).

Yeah, if this is the case, I don't know what he was thinking.

If you run at someone with a shotgun and get between them and their escape vehicle, yeah, they're going to be approaching you. And of course you had a choice, you chose to go on your neighbors lawn and set up a defensive perimeter. WTF?!

Now, if you just absolutely have it in your fool head that you want to play the hero, at least be smart about it. Fuck up their wheels so they can't get away before the cops show up. If they take issue with this and wish to approach you for a rather impolite discussion, then you may have cause to defend yourself.

Hell, just turning all your lights on and yelling out your window saying you've called the police would get them out of there.
 
Vigilantism at its worst...I'm all for protecting what is most precious to you but this is far beyond that. He was looking for a reason to kill someone and he found it.

Castle Doctrine won't, and shouldn't, protect him here (And I believe strongly in the Castle Doctrine being a just legal standard).
 
JoeMartin said:
Everyone is missing the greater moral of the story: Don't rob houses.
Uh I think anyone with half a brain knows someones property=/=yours. Who needs to learn that lesson? They're not called thieves for no reason.

And this guy needs to learn that someones property=/=his as well.
 
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