i found that running to the right in a half circle dodges them all. After dieing twice i used that trick and didn't get hit by it once. Immediately after that attack put your guard up cause she throws those knives.
The game's approach to narrative is interesting. Most games model themselves after prose fiction and attempt to tell a story through a logical narrative of events.
This is problematic because the internal logic of game design completely alters the dramatic emphasis of any given scenario, as compared to the linear narratives they emulate.
No More Heroes doesn't solve this problem. What it does is toss the logic of the narrative out the window - It doesn't need it, and it can hit its dramatic beats as a game better without being constrained by rationality.
But No More Heroes doesn't abandon narrative - not at all. There's a very strong symbolic narrative present, and it's executed well.
It's the classic and enduring theme of the male ascent to sexual maturity, as presented by a videogame that positively embraces its identity as a device to enable immature masculine empowerment/revenge fantasies. The ironic dichotomy between the openly misogynistic play and the plot that it progresses is delicious - beating up representations of women furthers the plot and the protagonist's character development of the adult capacity for normalized sexual and social relationships.
It's best if I don't try to describe the symbolic meanings I see in too much detail - much of the strength of a symbolic narrative is in its conduciveness to personal interpretations and meaning - but look to the progression through the feminine triad
Shinobu, Holly Summers and Speed Buster
that results in Travis developing the capacity to "kill" (read: fuck) a woman. Immediately afterward, he engages in this activity with a partner
who's obviously a Bad Girl, right?
This at the very least makes Shinobu's taunt of "What's that in your hand, a toy?" the most incredibly awesome double entendre - she's referring to Travis' katana, the Wii remote you're holding, and suggesting that you and Travis are both sitting around holding your dicks impotently. Coming from a "virgin" female this is incredibly provocative and insulting. Such a great fucking game.
Quick question, is there a big difference between the two versions of Killer 7? It's seems easier to find the PS2 version though I'd rather get the GC.
The game's approach to narrative is interesting. Most games model themselves after prose fiction and attempt to tell a story through a logical narrative of events.
This is problematic because the internal logic of game design completely alters the dramatic emphasis of any given scenario, as compared to the linear narratives they emulate.
No More Heroes doesn't solve this problem. What it does is toss the logic of the narrative out the window - It doesn't need it, and it can hit its dramatic beats as a game better without being constrained by rationality.
But No More Heroes doesn't abandon narrative - not at all. There's a very strong symbolic narrative present, and it's executed well.
It's the classic and enduring theme of the male ascent to sexual maturity, as presented by a videogame that positively embraces its identity as a device to enable immature masculine empowerment/revenge fantasies. The ironic dichotomy between the openly misogynistic play and the plot that it progresses is delicious - beating up representations of women furthers the plot and the protagonist's character development of the adult capacity for normalized sexual and social relationships.
It's best if I don't try to describe the symbolic meanings I see in too much detail - much of the strength of a symbolic narrative is in its conduciveness to personal interpretations and meaning - but look to the progression through the feminine triad
Shinobu, Holly Summers and Speed Buster
that results in Travis developing the capacity to "kill" (read: fuck) a woman. Immediately afterward, he engages in this activity with a partner
who's obviously a Bad Girl, right?
This at the very least makes Shinobu's taunt of "What's that in your hand, a toy?" the most incredibly awesome double entendre - she's referring to Travis' katana, the Wii remote you're holding, and suggesting that you and Travis are both sitting around holding your dicks impotently. Coming from a "virgin" female this is incredibly provocative and insulting. Such a great fucking game.
I know that, I'm just having a hard time believing NMH doesn't have much deep meaning as Killer 7, so any kind of discussion looking for it is good to me.
Of course there's absolutely no way NMH can even scratch how deep Killer 7 is.
I know that, I'm just having a hard time believing NMH doesn't have much deep meaning as Killer 7, so any kind of discussion looking for it is good to me.
Of course there's absolutely no way NMH can even scratch how deep Killer 7 is.
Didn't Suda say that No More Heroes deals with social issues while Killer 7 deals with political ones? No doubt about it that NMH's plot is shallower than Killer 7, but the way that the story unfolds is pretty good in a shocker sort of way.
Quick question, is there a big difference between the two versions of Killer 7? It's seems easier to find the PS2 version though I'd rather get the GC.
So somehow I missed getting three of the free assassination missions even thought I completed all the part time jobs. How do you get (I think) 13. 14 and 18?
So somehow I missed getting three of the free assassination missions even thought I completed all the part time jobs. How do you get (I think) 13. 14 and 18?
I just beat it :lol
This may very well be the best game ever.
WTF Real Ending
Travis dies, then Syliva says too bad there won't be a sequal, and then TO BE CONTINUED in Back to the Futures letters? what's going on here :lol And when did Travis and Sylvia do it, that she had his daughter? And ha, what's up with Travis having like, amnesia the entire time and us never knowing? He didn't know he had a twin brother, he didnt know he had a sister, his sister killed his parents, but he thought she was his girlfriend that dumped him and left? :lol :lol
I just beat it :lol
This may very well be the best game ever.
WTF Real Ending
Travis dies, then Syliva says too bad there won't be a sequal, and then TO BE CONTINUED in Back to the Futures letters? what's going on here :lol And when did Travis and Sylvia do it, that she had his daughter? And ha, what's up with Travis having like, amnesia the entire time and us never knowing? He didn't know he had a twin brother, he didnt know he had a sister, his sister killed his parents, but he thought she was his girlfriend that dumped him and left? :lol :lol
I just beat it :lol
This may very well be the best game ever.
WTF Real Ending
Travis dies, then Syliva says too bad there won't be a sequal, and then TO BE CONTINUED in Back to the Futures letters? what's going on here :lol And when did Travis and Sylvia do it, that she had his daughter? And ha, what's up with Travis having like, amnesia the entire time and us never knowing? He didn't know he had a twin brother, he didnt know he had a sister, his sister killed his parents, but he thought she was his girlfriend that dumped him and left? :lol :lol
the ending drives home the fact that the story is making fun of how ridiculously stupid Videogame plots are, throwing a bunch of plot twists at the last hour.
and yeah the ending is one of the best ever.
pepsimanvsjoe said:
Not going to bother with reading the thread since going by just TwinIonEngine's post I'd probably just puke my guts out 300 times over.
it's not like he is the only one that came up with that interpretation and who gives a fuck? that's what he sees in the story and his opinion. you sure like being an ass.
the ending drives home the fact that the story is making fun of how ridiculously stupid Videogame plots are, throwing a bunch of plot twists at the last hour.
and yeah the ending is one of the best ever.
it's not like he is the only one that came up with that interpretation and who gives a fuck? that's what he sees in the story and his opinion. you sure like being an ass.
Yea, agreed. The game from start to finish was one video game satire. Even the opening line of the game states this clearly by saying that a lot of gamers don't have patience these days. Why don't you join me on a journey? Press A to begin. etc etc.
that's why little Jeanie, what, 5 years old?, was staring at the painting for so long - she never met her daddy Travis, so its her favorite painting. Travis sure is a bastard, killing his brother and sister, what a family :lol Anyway, I'm sure Suda ended it this way 'cause he doesn't believe in sequels. I'm sure if they funded one for him, he'd recon it in some way. Unless the game stars his daughter
There is depth in the game if you go and actually make it up (read: twin ion). I came to understand long ago that this game is the complete and total opposite of everything that Killer 7 is. There isn't room for mass interpretation, the game is a fucked up, horny, violent, hell of a ride. Besides...we all know
I'm cool with people being dismissive of my interpretation, because I know that I'm not making anything up - the symbolism is present, intentional and coherent. I'll shut up about it now because I know the game can communicate these ideas on its own.
There is little going on in John Harker's understanding of the ending that matches up with my own.
I think, in the end, whatever happens during the ending doesn't matter.
However,
there are a number of similarities between Travis' dialogue with Henry as they run, and the song during the first ranked battle, with Travis voice overlaid, talking about "gotta find the exit." If I had the song, I could give it a listen.
You know, I wanted it to turn out that the girl just imagined it all and all the major characters in the game were from people she knew.
Dr. Peace = Cowboy Grandpa
Destroyman = An asshole assassin version of her favorite power ranger-like superhero
Sylvia = Her mom, obviously
Henry = The badass dad she always wanted
and etc
It would have been interesting imo, especially if it turned out Dr. Peace's song tied in with the girl, with the dreaming about the fantasy or whatever
Just found a card of artwork for the TIE Riders that race you going to the Rank 1 match. Holy Hell, so many star wars references in the game, but I LOVE the artwork for the TIE Riders. All decked in darth vader cosplay and the bikes do resemble the TIE fighters! So awesome!
You know, I wanted it to turn out that the girl just imagined it all and all the major characters in the game were from people she knew.
Dr. Peace = Cowboy Grandpa
Destroyman = An asshole assassin version of her favorite power ranger-like superhero
Sylvia = Her mom, obviously
Henry = The badass dad she always wanted
and etc
It would have been interesting imo, especially if it turned out Dr. Peace's song tied in with the girl, with the dreaming about the fantasy or whatever
Could be Henry's daughter, they were married and with Henry and Travis being twins, that means Jeane killed off Henry's parents too, making naming Henry's daughter Jeane just as significant. Or, after fight #3?? the date, weren't we shown a shot of Travis and Sylvia behind the curtains?
I was just talking about the literal translation of the ending.
Didn't you see the
Jeane scene played in slo-mo? She pretty much details the events that led to the start of the game. Also Travis lapsing into an irish accent at one point, their similar love of Sylvia and fighting style, etc... it isn't hard to imagine Henry is his brother. Hell it's prolly why Sylvia helped Travis at first, besides conning him. I mean, Henry was in on it - was pretty obvious he was the one leaving him the phone messages. There just wasn't anything left for Travis at the end. No family, no friends... and with no one left to kill, no purpose. Why not go out on top?
Could be Henry's daughter, they were married and with Henry and Travis being twins, that means Jeane killed off Henry's parents too, making naming Henry's daughter Jeane just as significant. Or, after fight #3?? the date, weren't we shown a shot of Travis and Sylvia behind the curtains?
making out. And then from that point on, a lot of Sylvia's phone calls to Travis were about being confident in him, him succeeding, she even mentioned liking him at one point, but who could love him? blah blah, then she pretty much disappears... They probably slept together then. You do have a point in that it could be Henry's as well all things considered, but I took it by Sylvia changing her tone to Travis and more or less vanishing instead of sticking around to enjoy the rest of the show meant she did something with him and either felt something or felt guilt, because she was hiding from him. It became more complicated than just about the con money. He alluded to it to Henry too, and Henry started to get pissed during their fight. I mean, like most of Suda's writing, its ambiguous, but that's how I saw it
it's not like he is the only one that came up with that interpretation and who gives a fuck? that's what he sees in the story and his opinion. you sure like being an ass.
I was just talking about the literal translation of the ending.
Didn't you see the
Jeane scene played in slo-mo? She pretty much details the events that led to the start of the game. Also Travis lapsing into an irish accent at one point, their similar love of Sylvia and fighting style, etc... it isn't hard to imagine Henry is his brother. Hell it's prolly why Sylvia helped Travis at first, besides conning him. I mean, Henry was in on it - was pretty obvious he was the one leaving him the phone messages. There just wasn't anything left for Travis at the end. No family, no friends... and with no one left to kill, no purpose. Why not go out on top?
I saw Travis' "lapsing" into the accent as more of a form of mockery than anything else. I would also argue that Travis does not "love" Sylvia, if he is even emotionally capable of loving anyone at all. Also, as for his fighting style, if changes with each weapon in such a way that his only consistent style is his wrestling one.
How is it obvious that he was the one leaving the messages? Are the voices similar? I've been skipping them on my second playthrough. Don't forget those two other men who follow Sylvia around, as well.
Anyway, I am not sure that either Henry or Travis are real people, and thus, I don't put a whole lot of weight on the ending. While Twin Ion may have looked a bit too hard for that symbolism, it is certainly there, and I buy most of his analysis. That message had been conveyed by the end of the rank 1 battle. So what is left? Suda makes fun of plot twists. Throw in the "oh wait the assassins weren't real but now yes" moment. Throw in the handsome foil who happens to be his twin brother. Throw in the romantic links. Now throw in a Dallas-esque dream twist, imagined by the little girl. It fits almost too well.
I mean, there is nothing wrong imagining it as being more literal, but the pattern of twist after twist seems too strong to break.
I saw Travis' "lapsing" into the accent as more of a form of mockery than anything else. I would also argue that Travis does not "love" Sylvia, if he is even emotionally capable of loving anyone at all. Also, as for his fighting style, if changes with each weapon in such a way that his only consistent style is his wrestling one.
How is it obvious that he was the one leaving the messages? Are the voices similar? I've been skipping them on my second playthrough. Don't forget those two other men who follow Sylvia around, as well.
Anyway, I am not sure that either Henry or Travis are real people, and thus, I don't put a whole lot of weight on the ending. While Twin Ion may have looked a bit too hard for that symbolism, it is certainly there, and I buy most of his analysis. That message had been conveyed by the end of the rank 1 battle. So what is left? Suda makes fun of plot twists. Throw in the "oh wait the assassins weren't real but now yes" moment. Throw in the handsome foil who happens to be his twin brother. Throw in the romantic links. Now throw in a Dallas-esque dream twist, imagined by the little girl. It fits almost too well.
I mean, there is nothing wrong imagining it as being more literal, but the pattern of twist after twist seems too strong to break.
I don't think Henry was in on anything, he says at the end that Sylvia would just up and vanish and that he would never know where she was. I also think that when Travis was talking with the accent that he was more or less just mocking Henry. The kid thing is up in the air though, because there is that seen with Travis and Sylvia making out and then the curtains close.
Forgot the ending part of the spoiler tag for a second there, lol almost would have ruined a few things for someone. :lol
I don't think Henry was in on anything, he says at the end that Sylvia would just up and vanish and that he would never know where she was. I also think that when Travis was talking with the accent that he was more or less just mocking Henry. The kid thing is up in the air though, because there is that seen with Travis and Sylvia making out and then the curtains close.
Forgot the ending part of the spoiler tag for a second there, lol almost would have ruined a few things for someone. :lol
"the assoication?" that was what sounded like Henry's voice.... and even more so in the final message, which dropped the hiding of the irish accent when he said 'have a nice journey' or something along those lines, very much with the full accent revealed. Who else could it have been? The assoication was a con. The narrative went out of the way to have one of Sylvia's "other men" speak at one point, and it was certainly not the same guy.
And to Alts, I don't see how you can think the assassin's weren't real. They were really people, they just weren't really assassins. Didn't anyone notice how no one really reponded when Travis called them by their numbers? Also Death Metal himself said something like, don't you have any idea what's going on here? You have no idea, etc etc. Additionally, it was obvious Bad Girl was no assassin. Just a killer. She alluded to that herself. Also, why would Thunder Ryu attack Speed Buster? That was no ranking match. We don't know the motivation, but it looked to me they knew each other personally and were fighting, not him trying to place in the UAA. Dr Peace himself made a comment or two about how these people just out of the blue starting paying for all this for him, setting him up in the stadium, etc. He seemed surprised by it. Destroyman stops and actually asks Travis why they need to fight and kill one another. The only thing I recall anyone actually mentioning a rankings fight was specifically was Shinobu. But that can be explained by the mom who said Travis wasn't the first young one Sylvia tricked... plus her showing up at the end and helping Travis, she could have gotten wind of what was going down. I just figured that Sylvia was conning Travis for money, hence all the deposits, Henry was more or less in on the whole scheme (perhaps he didn't know it was Travis at first, or about Travis/Sylvia's relationships), and Sylvia was going out and just finding some of the craziest killers around and using the money Travis paid to get them to be at a certain location at a certain time. Some were assassins, sure, some were crooked cops, some were just murders, etc. It was a way for Sylvia to earn some money, have a little fun, but actually train Travis and help him learn to fight so he could eventually confront and kill his sister, which is what Sylvia promised to help him do the first night he was wasted and met her. Along the way, Henry found out his wife was taking it a bit too far and went to investigate himself, found out it was Travis, and wanted in on the action. Sylvia started falling for Travis, did him behind the curtains at the big show, got pregnant, and kind of ran out of the spotlight... Travis won the rankings, had nothing left for him, his brother confronted him, and they decided to say fuck it all this is the life they chose, lets see whose the last man standing... etc etc.
My take was that they killed each other and 5 years later, we see Sylvia and Travis daughter Jeane. Sure, the girl could have imagined it, but that seems like too much of an easy way out - and why would a little girl imagine killing her parents and getting rapped and all that anyway? Jeane in the story was older than the little girl. I would have bought this line of thinking a bit more if they showed Crystal with an abusive-type man, but it wasn't happenin'.
Of course there was a lot of subtle references to maturity, growth, social perversion (the job rankings man, talk about a piece of work), etc, but if you try to piece together the actual progression of the literal story, that's what I got out of it.
I believe it.
The game pretty much chokes when I kill five or so guys at the same time.
Then again there's maybe a second or two of actual gameplay during that time so it doesn't really matter.
Just hit ranks 8 and 7 today. Didn't have half the trouble most did with Shinobu, mostly because I had read all the horror stories and was prepared. Destroyman was a fun fight as well
"If challenge had a taste you'd be quite delicious"... love that line and the way he cuts him in half at the end of the match
even if you take everything i just said as true, it doesnt matter if Henry is really his brother or not. Just like Dark Star claiming to be his father and Sylvia saying how gullible Travis is, it could be the same ploy... but it doesnt matter, because its not like the two of them being twins affects the ending or anything. Could be a joke. Do I believe Henry is still in on it and married to Sylvia? I do. It's obvious he knows him. The brother thing could go either way, though I don't really have a particular reason to doubt it
"the assoication?" that was what sounded like Henry's voice.... and even more so in the final message, which dropped the hiding of the irish accent when he said 'have a nice journey' or something along those lines, very much with the full accent revealed. Who else could it have been? The assoication was a con. The narrative went out of the way to have one of Sylvia's "other men" speak at one point, and it was certainly not the same guy.
