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Shinobi602 on the "lack" of First Party reveals by PlayStation: "I think some still haven't really grasped just how long big games take to make now"

FunkMiller

Member
No point in bringing FromSoft all that much, to be honest.

Theyre a privately owned developer, in a country with a strong work ethic, and a culture of shame when a bad job is done.

Most western devs are American, entitled, have a terrible work ethic, publically owned by shareholders, and full of pointless cunts who thrive in America’s unregulated capitalist system.
 
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Msamy

Member
Something's got to give at some point. You'll either have to content yourself with more frequent releases that have lower production values, or you'll have wait until the end of the generation to get games that make full use of the hardware.
No their's no need to wait to end of this generation to get games that make full use of hardware , other developers like Microsoft first party studios ex(hellblade 2, fable) , ubisoft (avatar&star warts oultow) , kojima (DS2) , Remedy ( Alan Wake 2 ) and some indie developer (ex robocop ) show or release next gen titles which take full advantage of current gen hardware, its clearly that son first party studios are lacking behind because of bad management and strategy
 
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ProtoByte

Member
No point in bringing FromSoft all that much, to be honest.

Theyre a privately owned developer, in a country with a strong work ethic, and a culture of shame when a bad job is done.

Most western devs are American, entitled, have a terrible work ethic, publically owned by shareholders, and full of pointless cunts who thrive in America’s unregulated capitalist system.
There's no point bringing up From Software when making accusations at others for slowly releasing homogenized open worlds because they reuse assets from the PS3 era like its going out of fashion, take just as long as anyone else to put out said games, and hopped onto the open world wagon precisely when most of their contemporaries did.
 
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Södy

Member
Problem with this is that the changes you describe wouldn't save nearly as much dev time as you'd expect. The "bloat" tends to be made up of generic scripted content that can be quickly implemented at multiple -sometimes randomized- locations across an open world, and that stuff is quick to put together but adds a lot of busywork to engage the player's attention.

What tends to cost the most time are big set-pieces and things that require a lot of bespoke code and art exclusive to themselves. Moments that represent a tiny sliver of actual play-time but are outsized in terms of memorability and importance to the play experience. Cutting back on these is difficult because gamers tend not to like repeated boss fights (for example), they want each high-spot to unique.
Ofcourse a game would take still multiple years. But cutting the campaign and make it linear instead of open world would still cut one or two years off I believe.
 

SenkiDala

Member
I think we're starting to see the effect of Sony devoting some of their resources to trying to make gaas games. You can't have both, especially since Sony didn't go on a shopping spree for new studios and only made single acqusitions.
Exactly, they had so many projects, most of them have been cancelled, and now they've nothing to show...

And his condescending sentence is dumb. Sure it takes twice the time than before, sometimes more, but Sony has MANY studios, with some good management they would have AT LEAST exclusive games per year... Nintendo always did it (even though yeah Pikmin 4 is not exactly the same project complexity than a TLOU3), Microsoft mostly did and is still doing it...

I dunno why Sony should have a "free pass" about having no 1st party exclusives to show. That's bad, that's all.
 

Klosshufvud

Member
maxresdefault.jpg
Armored Core 6 and Sekiro play nothing like the Souls games. And Elden Ring, despite being made by a Japanese company, somehow made a larger scale game than most western AAA 500m budget 7-years-in-the-making open world games. There is something wrong with how these games are being made.
 
Exactly, they had so many projects, most of them have been cancelled, and now they've nothing to show...

And his condescending sentence is dumb. Sure it takes twice the time than before, sometimes more, but Sony has MANY studios, with some good management they would have AT LEAST exclusive games per year... Nintendo always did it (even though yeah Pikmin 4 is not exactly the same project complexity than a TLOU3), Microsoft mostly did and is still doing it...

I dunno why Sony should have a "free pass" about having no 1st party exclusives to show. That's bad, that's all.

Naughty Dog fucked up their multiplayer attempt and you extrapolate that as an issue with all their other studios. Get a grip already. That's not the reality.

Nintendo has the same issue as Sony, so they also partner with third party developers to keep output consistent, but for some reason you only have an issue with Sony doing that?

Microsoft. Like come the fuck on lmao. Their output has been dogshit. You'd expect them to have the most first party games out given they've bought two fucking publishers.
 
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Ceadeus

Member
Not every game needs a movie budget.
The pace they release games is disappointing and unacceptable.
Smaller first and third parties who create smaller games should be more numerous.

Sometime Xbox live arcade and PSN games were filling that gap. We might need this category again, where talented and less talented studios release smaller and cheaper games.

There was and still is a market for bite sized arcade game, puzzle , side scrollers, top down dungeon crawler, arcade racing, beat em up etc... add multiplayer and online leaderboard and people will be chasing Achievements/Trophies in any minute.
 
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No their's no need to wait to end of this generation to get games that make full use of hardware , other developers like Microsoft first party studios ex(hellblade 2, fable) , ubisoft (avatar&star warts oultow) , kojima (DS2) , Remedy ( Alan Wake 2 ) and some indie developer (ex robocop ) show or release next gen titles which take full advantage of current gen hardware, its clearly that son first party studios are lacking behind because of bad management and strategy
Current-Gen consoles launched four years ago. All of those games either released very recently, or they aren't even out yet, even though some of them also started development as far back as 2018. Six years is still the better part of a generation, even using the absurdly long lifespan of the PS4 and Xbox One as a benchmark.

The next generation of consoles will be even more powerful and games will cost even more and take even longer to develop. This obviously can't go on forever. As I said, at some point something's got to give.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
It's probably also worth discussing the impact of LTS (long term support) for games already released. Content patches, bugs, balancing etc. that drain resources
 
No point in bringing FromSoft all that much, to be honest.

Theyre a privately owned developer, in a country with a strong work ethic, and a culture of shame when a bad job is done.

Most western devs are American, entitled, have a terrible work ethic, publically owned by shareholders, and full of pointless cunts who thrive in America’s unregulated capitalist system.

Funk, agreed but, let me throw this in here:
As much as I love FROM...the HEAVY asset reuse, be it sound effects, animations, textures etc is real - playing ER you can literally see and hear animations and Sound FX straight up lifted from Sekiro (and their other previous games).

I know I'm gonna get laughed off since the FROM circle-jerk is strong (unfortunately) and I also know that it's pretty much standard when it comes to game design but...FROM isn't this magical entity that produces games in a vacuum nor their games are being made without concessions (shit, NPCs with moving mouths is always an "extra" in their games ffs 😁).

I think we could all agree that their strongest point is art-direction but purely from a technical standpoint, they're always 1 generation behind.

I love their games but...
 
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Msamy

Member
Current-Gen consoles launched four years ago. All of those games either released very recently, or they aren't even out yet, even though some of them also started development as far back as 2018. Six years is still the better part of a generation, even using the absurdly long lifespan of the PS4 and Xbox One as a benchmark.

The next generation of consoles will be even more powerful and games will cost even more and take even longer to develop. This obviously can't go on forever. As I said, at some point something's got to give.
No simply Alan Wake 2.avatar and hellblade toke only 4 years to make and I am 100 % believe that ND , sony first party can easily produce true next gen titles within 4 years , even if games taken longer than that they at least have something to show which isn't the case right now , the true problem is that sony shit management make them focus in gass and cross gen not that the games now need more development time
 
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I think we're starting to see the effect of Sony devoting some of their resources to trying to make gaas games. You can't have both, especially since Sony didn't go on a shopping spree for new studios and only made single acqusitions.
One of the reasons why Sony has been amazing at cultivating talent over the years is because they partner with studios before acquiring them. So by the time a game is released, they know quite clearly whether a studio fits well with their ecosystem or not. If they acquired a publisher with multiple studios, like a Square Enix, Sony would have to reign in 5000 extra employees that are in mid-development on various games that they never greenlit. Sony's brand is so strong partially because all their major AAA blockbuster games hit. They won't risk all these extra headaches, not to mention putting undue stress on their support network studios. There was a leak from Insomniac last year where the internal memo listed expectations for Wolverine, and one of them was "Game of the Year contender". And I bet every AAA SP Sony studio has that expectation
 

deriks

4-Time GIF/Meme God
Publishers and developers know this shit since 2010. Revealing a CGI teaser just for the sake of marketing and having basically no start of real game is bullshit

And this is getting so out of hand that even fucking Nintendo did with Metroid Prime 4

Respect the consumer more
 

Lunarorbit

Member
So its the consumers fault that studios and Sony don't prepare for these lulls in 1st party?

I'm sick of being told to be patient. I am patient. There's been plenty of 2nd party games though which Sony rightfully has inserted in these lulls.

Sony is obsessed with cinematics which is a big mistake. Spiderman 2's budget was out of control compared to the 1st. It doesn't have to be this way.

Could be making vr games so people have confidence. Could be making smaller indie games that sell well (stop with the small games don't make money shit gaffers)
 

CosmicComet

Member
Rise of the Ronin and Stellar Blade are NOT first party games because Sony doesn't own the IPs.

So they really only had Helldivers 2 for last year.

Doesnt matter to me though, I didn't get a PS5 for Sony games. I dont care for their 1st party anymore. I just got the PS5 because it has the controller type and face buttons that I like best. It's a 3rd party and multi plat system to me.
 
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We had three Uncharted games released across a single generation and now we are looking at three Last of Us games across three generations, might even be 4 in at this rate. The worst part is Uncharted 2 is probably still their best game and other than graphics, their latest titles are not particularly more ambitious in scale.
 

Sanepar

Member
I will say more even if MS is a disaster in gaming department at least they have a event every year for their consumers. Sony last 3 years in terms of communication is a total disaster. I don't care if these games will take 6 years. Bring at least a trailer. Many studio already have a window of 4 years.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
The issue is a lot of dev studios in the west are run like adult daycare centers now.



When hiring and making your team is like the above, racial/LGBT over raw talent, that’s cancer, and it has spread into almost every western studios.

Sometimes I wonder, or hope, that when we see devs fired, that publishers are cutting off this cancer if they spotted the toxicity.
 
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Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Ofcourse a game would take still multiple years. But cutting the campaign and make it linear instead of open world would still cut one or two years off I believe.

My point is pretty simple; If cutting 50% off the playtime, 40% off the retail price only reduces budget by 33% and production cycle by 20%, is it sill the smart move?

Obviously I'm just pulling those numbers out my ass for sake of example, but the bottom line is that the relative ratios are absolutely vital in terms of sustainability.

If mid-price, mid-budget was the best way then wouldn't we see more market success and consequently more uptake for this sort of offering?

I hate to admit it, but Bobby Kotick pivoting Activision to Blockbuster-or-Bust mode (a methodology subsequently adopted by Zelnick at Take-Two) seems inarguably to be the best move from a pure business standpoint. That bottom-line result is the bar to beat, industry-wide.
 
their latest titles are not particularly more ambitious in scale.
That's just not true.

Last of us part 2 for better or worse is close to the same length as all three ps3 uncharted games.

Not to mention having better graphics, bigger levels, more advanced gameplay mechanics more enemy variety etc etc
 

Södy

Member
My point is pretty simple; If cutting 50% off the playtime, 40% off the retail price only reduces budget by 33% and production cycle by 20%, is it sill the smart move?

Obviously I'm just pulling those numbers out my ass for sake of example, but the bottom line is that the relative ratios are absolutely vital in terms of sustainability.

If mid-price, mid-budget was the best way then wouldn't we see more market success and consequently more uptake for this sort of offering?

I hate to admit it, but Bobby Kotick pivoting Activision to Blockbuster-or-Bust mode (a methodology subsequently adopted by Zelnick at Take-Two) seems inarguably to be the best move from a pure business standpoint. That bottom-line result is the bar to beat, industry-wide.
It is the smart move if I have 15 hours where I enjoy every single minute instead of having a 30 hour game where there is a lot of filler content, even in the main story. It obviously depends but we can't just talk quantity here, we need to talk quality aswell. But I agree, it's hard to measure.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
No their's no need to wait to end of this generation to get games that make full use of hardware , other developers like Microsoft first party studios ex(hellblade 2, fable) , ubisoft (avatar&star warts oultow) , kojima (DS2) , Remedy ( Alan Wake 2 ) and some indie developer (ex robocop ) show or release next gen titles which take full advantage of current gen hardware, its clearly that son first party studios are lacking behind because of bad management and strategy
This. Simply saying games take too long guys is missing just how poorly Herman Bust has run these studios.

the first party is still making games. its just that they wasted those 4-5 years on last gen stuff and remakes that no one wnated when they forked over $500 on the ps5.

here is why sony studios dont have much to show after being MIA in 2021, 2022 and technically MIA in 2023 when all they showed was spiderman 2 and a bunch of gaas trash.

ND - Neil ran away to make a tv show. bored devs started meddling with the vsg project causing vsg leads to quit in disgust, forcing nd to waste 2 years finishing that project. also, 5 years wasted on trying to get gaas factions to work.

Bend - Wasted 6 months on a days gone 2 pitch instead of making a sequel right away. then wasted a year and a half on an uncharted spinoff which they cancelled because of nd meddling.

SSM - Spent 4.5 years on a last gen game without cory who was off making a new IP that is still MIA after 6 years in pre-production. Maybe they shouldve given him a bigger team to realize his vision.

GG - Spent 5 years on a last gen game, plus one more on DLC. Not sure how long on a remake no one wants. Not sure how long on a GaaS horizon game no one wants.

PD - wasted 4.5 years on a last gen game.

Insomniac - Wasted 2 years on Miles last gen DLC. Imagine if they had those 2 years to get spiderman 2 the best they could make. An additional 2 years shouldve given them enough time for a complete graphics overhaul and a big gameplay overhual. but no, lets waste 2 years on DLC.


if these studios simply moved on to making next gen only games instead of cross gen games, remakes and DLCs, we would be swimming in next gen stuff right now.
 
Smaller first and third parties who create smaller games should be more numerous.

Sometime Xbox live arcade and PSN games were filling that gap. We might need this category again, where talented and less talented studios release smaller and cheaper games.

There was and still is a market for bite sized arcade game, puzzle , side scrollers, top down dungeon crawler, arcade racing, beat em up etc... add multiplayer and online leaderboard and people will be chasing Achievements/Trophies in any minute.
Regarding MP, they should focus on smaller, arena-style linear games (like UC3 MP).

UC3 MP was considered a GaaS for its time, since it got updates for 3 years (2011-2014), even after the PS4 release.

Few people will remember it, but it even got a new map (Dry Docks):


Factions 2 was most likely an open world MP game (Battle Royale style).

Nobody asked for that in the ND MP community... they took the wrong gamble.

Remastering classic MP games (Killzone 2-3, Uncharted 2-3) would require way less effort/crunch than trying to make the next Battle Royale hit and it would bring back PS3 veterans that don't feel that engaged anymore. Guaranteed ROI with minimal CapEx.

I'm surprised Sony's higher-ups don't get it. It's like they were absent in the PS3 era.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Rise of the Ronin and Stellar Blade are NOT first party games because Sony doesn't own the IPs.

So they really only had Helldivers 2 for last year.

Doesnt matter to me though, I didn't get a PS5 for Sony games. I dont care for their 1st party anymore. I just got the PS5 because it has the controller type and face buttons that I like best. It's a 3rd party and multi plat system me.
Honestly this is probably where I'm at, Multiplats & 3rd Party Exclusives like the good ol' day's of the PSX.
The longer it takes them to release new games the longer it takes for them to maybe not fuck up the IP's like TLOU, Horizon & Spider-Man.
I ain't disputing the quality of their work...but I become less interested in seeing the DEI shit stains they leave on their work.
 

IDWhite

Member
More complex games come at a longer time of development, but that's not the big issue. Cross-gen, multi-platform, GaaS and working on multiple projects at the same time are the biggest issues from first party studios. Of course all comes from a bad management with questionable decisions.
 

Msamy

Member
This. Simply saying games take too long guys is missing just how poorly Herman Bust has run these studios.

the first party is still making games. its just that they wasted those 4-5 years on last gen stuff and remakes that no one wnated when they forked over $500 on the ps5.

here is why sony studios dont have much to show after being MIA in 2021, 2022 and technically MIA in 2023 when all they showed was spiderman 2 and a bunch of gaas trash.

ND - Neil ran away to make a tv show. bored devs started meddling with the vsg project causing vsg leads to quit in disgust, forcing nd to waste 2 years finishing that project. also, 5 years wasted on trying to get gaas factions to work.

Bend - Wasted 6 months on a days gone 2 pitch instead of making a sequel right away. then wasted a year and a half on an uncharted spinoff which they cancelled because of nd meddling.

SSM - Spent 4.5 years on a last gen game without cory who was off making a new IP that is still MIA after 6 years in pre-production. Maybe they shouldve given him a bigger team to realize his vision.

GG - Spent 5 years on a last gen game, plus one more on DLC. Not sure how long on a remake no one wants. Not sure how long on a GaaS horizon game no one wants.

PD - wasted 4.5 years on a last gen game.

Insomniac - Wasted 2 years on Miles last gen DLC. Imagine if they had those 2 years to get spiderman 2 the best they could make. An additional 2 years shouldve given them enough time for a complete graphics overhaul and a big gameplay overhual. but no, lets waste 2 years on DLC.


if these studios simply moved on to making next gen only games instead of cross gen games, remakes and DLCs, we would be swimming in next gen stuff right now.
This post need to be a theard, you write the truth that many sony dogs like shinobi tries to hide and many who don't understand anything about video game development follow them.
 
Ok? Sounds like a bloat and bad management problem to me.
"What you don't realize about lack of big game releases over time, is that it as time passes it takes longer to release games than time has passed!"
Wow, incredible insight! Almost as if it is the definition of the situation!

Will someone please think of the poor AAA studios!
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
We got Uncharted 4 about 3/4 years after TLOU.
TLOU2 (Naughty Dogs longest action game) and Lost Legacy, both within 4 years after Uncharted 4.

God of War Ragnarok took 4 years.

Demons Souls remake took 2 years.

FromSoft and Insomniac have released multiple projects with only a couple years between them.

They obviously fucked up with multiple cancelled projects which means bad management.

But these doom and gloom posts everyday about games taking too long and costing too much are a bit too much.
All these games made profit and most are super high quality, and didn't take 6+ years like people claim
 
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That's just not true.

Last of us part 2 for better or worse is close to the same length as all three ps3 uncharted games.

Not to mention having better graphics, bigger levels, more advanced gameplay mechanics more enemy variety etc etc
It's only as long as it is because of tedious long walking sections and going back to the same locations such as the aquarium over and over again. If you look at the set pieces in something like Uncharted 3 for instance like the the ship sinking, im not saying their latest game don't offer more but the increase in the length of development is not even remotely proportionate to the increase in unique content. Uncharted 5 will probably end up taking longer to develop than Uncharted 1, 2 and 3 and while it could potentially be as long as those 3 games combined, you won't have anywhere near the number of unique set pieces like the train in Uncharted 2 or the ship in 3. Easily 7 or 8 across the three game. You will be lucky to get three or 4. As with Uncharted 4 they will just have more areas where you just wonder around in a car for an hour to make it longer.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
We got Uncharted 4 about 3/4 years after TLOU.
TLOU2 (Naughty Dogs longest action game) and Lost Legacy, both within 4 years after Uncharted 4.

God of War Ragnarok took 4 years.

Demons Souls remake took 2 years.

FromSoft and Insomniac have released multiple projects with only a couple years between them.

They obviously fucked up with multiple cancelled projects which means bad management.

These doom and gloom posts everyday about games taking too long and costing too much are a bit too much.
All these games made profit and most are super high quality, and didn't take 6+ years like people claim
Yep. You can see exactly when things started to go wrong too. They had a slide showing how their sp to mp budget split was 88-12% in 2019 in favor of sp games. By 2023, it was 45-55% in favor of mp. With no increase in overall spending for sp games especially with costs increasing post covid. All their extra investment went into gaas. All of it.

Are we really surprised they have no single player games ready? If it wasn’t for insomniac, they would’ve gone 3 years without a major next Gen only sp game, ir 2 years without a first party single player game.

Herman and jimbo destroyed the Sony first party output with their mismanagement, cross Gen, gaas and remake focus. If games take longer to make, hire more people. You are more profitable than ever before.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Honestly don’t see the need for him to defend Sony there. And to be fair an event is around the corner (maybe)
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
If games take longer to make, hire more people. You are more profitable than ever before.
Sadly it doesn't work that way from a company perspective, it should and I do agree with you here.
But the lack of releases is directly tied to their budget for each studio.
Doesn't matter what the hardware is doing.
No consistency in releases = No consistent profits = lowered budgets = layoffs
We should be in our third/second wave of Playstation Games and some PS Studios have missed all 3 waves to release one game.
 
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Woopah

Member
Helldivers, ronin and stellar blade are considered 1st party?.
Stellar Blade is not first party.
Games published by Sony on PS5 are first party games. In the same way Fire Emblem Three Houses, Astral Chain, Smash Bros. Ultimate and Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 are all first party Nintendo games.
Bullshit
Just Capcom since 2019

Devil May Cry 5 (2019)
Resident Evil 2 (2019)
Resident Evil 3 (2020)
Monster Hunter Rise (2021)
Resident Evil VII (2021)
Resident Evil 4 (2023)
Street Fighter 6 (2023)
Dragons Dogma II (2024)

And that's just their big releases.
Who really has been the saving grace for us regardless of if they are remakes or of the same series, they are producing QUALITY games and in timely manner
Multiple studios are the same, with the exception of Insomniac Games & PD & I'll give Guerrilla Games a pass too each of Sony's studios should have had a reveal by now or due for release.
Year 2 should have had multiple studios reveal their first PS5 projects and the year after the rest.
Not 4 going into 5 years of nothing but PC ports
Games haven't magically become 2x longer to make without the evidence of why.
Stop making excuses for them.
And if that's really the case then they better stop hiring actor's to play their characters because they ain't gonna look the same by time they finish.
But Sony has also published a lot of games since 2019, and many Capcom teams are also taking many years to make video games.
 

YeulEmeralda

Linux User
Japanese wages are low and there are few tech jobs. That's why they have work ethic.

In Europe/America you'd have to be an idiot to get into the gaming industry.
 
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