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[Dice//]

I think it is kind of funny how the thread's bulk of pages are due to the awww-that-shirt's-not-that-bad crowd :>

It sort of ignores a lot the extra dialogue going on here too for whatever randoms to pop in, exclaim "NICE SHiRT, YOU SJWs ARE MESSED UP, 2014 AMIRITE?" and get out of here. Granted, it's a long topic; but a lot of the best points get lost pages behind us.

 

[Ferrio]

I pledged for this at Beta level, I'm downloading Ni No Kuni on my PS3 atm so I don't have the bandwidth to download the Beta but I'll download it when that finishes and give some impressions if no one else does.

Most reasonable post in thread.

 

[KHarvey16]

when can I get my apology from every boys band in the world for their offensive music?

It offends my ears. I want my apology.

On a serious note, society nowadays is disgusting as fuck. Bunch of whinners crying all the time.

My experience has been, in this thread at least, there's far more lazy people perfectly content with not only being ignorant but sharing an opinion based on that ignorance. Roughly 1100 posts and you've been satisfied to read none of them I take it.

 

[berzeli]

Would you say that it's the other person's fault for being offended?

Huh? I'm not following you. Like at all.

Are you actually suggesting that when an analogue with racism is made, the person making that analogue is accusing Matt Taylor for being a racist or is this some insane non sequitur? Please take into consideration that there is person in this thread arguing that social media will lead us into a Social Justice Warrior Dystopia unless they check their twitter privilege.

 

[Zephyrus]

My experience has been, in this thread at least, there's far more lazy people perfectly content with not only being ignorant but sharing an opinion based on that ignorance. Roughly 1100 posts and you've been satisfied to read none of them I take it.

I read the one that mattered to me. The first post.

Everyone else's opinion is as worth to me as a grain of sand on a beach.

 

[KHarvey16]

I read the one that mattered to me. The first post.

Everyone else's opinion is as worth to me as a grain of sand on a beach.

It's interesting then that you decided to participate in a discussion forum.

 

[jakonovski]

Huh? I'm not following you. Like at all.

Are you actually suggesting that when an analogue with racism is made, the person making that analogue is accusing Matt Taylor for being a racist or is this some insane non sequitur? Please take into consideration that there is person in this thread arguing that social media will lead us into a Social Justice Warrior Dystopia unless they check their twitter privilege.

I may ramble, but I do suspect that you suffer from the very same thing as all the boys will be boys types, except modified for your value set.

Ain't going to explain myself any further because WoW.

 

[GalacticAE]

Whats wrong with a shirt full of sexy women? I wouldnt get offended at a sexy men shirt even though i am one myself. Why does everything have to be so puritanical?

 

[Dice//]

Whats wrong with a shirt full of sexy women? I wouldnt get offended at a sexy men shirt even though i am one myself. Why does everything have to be so puritanical?

You just outlined the differences between how sexes are viewed. Women don't wear shirts or really have shirts of sexy guys, but men can find shirts of sexy girls. There's something you can read between the lines here.

 

[Jak140]

Is he a sexist? From the background information most reasonable people agree it doesn't seem like it. Is the shirt sexist? Hell if I know. If it was a Botticelli on the shirt would people be in uproar? Was Rumsfeld acting as a paragon of feminism when he covered up the Spirit of Justice? To what degree does the quality of the art, posing, gender of the artist or the wearer determine if it's sexist? A significant amount of the controversy is probably attributable to the subjective nature of those criteria. If a female scientist had instead worn a shirt with a bunch of shirtless dudes, I could see some of the people complaining about it now saying it was empowering, and some of the people defending it now complaining that it proved a sexist double standard.

My impression is that it's not sexist in itself, but it's not a clear line because context matters. It comes down to where you think the line between individual expression and responsibility to society should fall. I see where the people who say it may inadvertently send the wrong message in this context are coming from. I also believe there's a way to convey that without being an asshole about it to the point that you make the dude break down in tears. That's not just for his benefit, but also for the benefit of the cause you are trying to support. Nobody likes a bully, and by being one you run the risk of making the issue about you instead of the issue itself. Sometimes I wonder how much certain people care about an issue versus how much they care about being holier than thou.

This isn't some foaming at the mouth misogynist. He's just a dude who spent the last several years helping send a tin can hurtling 4 billion miles through the inky void to land on space rock instead of studying the nuances of the causes of gender inequality. Wearing the shirt in this context is arguably a mistake, but to claim it somehow undermines everything he and the other team members accomplished (as in the Verge article) is the kind of mean-spirited sarcastic hyperbole that makes the very people you would hope to convince roll their eyes. It's counterproductive because instead of convincing people of the importance of your issue, you instead draw a line in the sand. On one side are the people who are always right about everything (you and everyone who agrees with you), and on the other are the people who are wrong (human excrement). There's no room for conversation, for human imperfection, because you've already set the terms, either people agree with you or they are trash not worth listening to. There's no room for grey--for the possibility that this is just an average dude who maybe has questionable fashion tastes. There needs to be a middle ground between the perfect angels and literally Hitler, because if the standard is perfection no one can meet it, so why should they bother trying?

I mean it's easy to forgive the guy now if you complained about his shirt because he apologized, but what if he hadn't? It's possible to disagree with someone's choices without hating them or turning them into the enemy, but when you isolate yourself into a group of like-minded people it's easy to lose perspective. That's as true of people in the "boys' club" as it is of the internet activists who might hope to change it. We could all (myself included) do with practicing a little more empathy.

 

[PhineBuyM3]

He should have told them to go fuck themselves.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Still a massive leap to your insanely silly dystopia, and please stop arguing that it might happen, it derails what little discussion there is.

You mean the extreme outcome I gave as an example of where this line of thinking leads without any restraints, in a vain attempt to get people to actually state what they want in some kind of concrete form. The one that I repeatedly said I don't think people want and that I don't think could come about because people would sour of it before it could be arrived at ? And I still haven't gotten any kind of clear definition what limit is put on the cost of inclusiveness to individuality or what the ideal vision of society is, but I don't think I'm going to get one.

 

[berzeli]

I may ramble, but I do suspect that you suffer from the very same thing as all the boys will be boys types, except modified for your value set.

Ain't going to explain myself any further because WoW.

Err using a hypothetical situation where the offending thing (in your view) is worse that the real situation does not mean that the the person making the analogue thinks that the real person has committed as heinous an act or is as bad as the hypothetical.

The offensiveness is being compared, it's to illustrate the logic being used.

No one in this thread as far as I've seen have said anything worse about Matt Taylor than wearing that shirt was kind of stupid. And no one is when they're using analogues arguing for him to be shun by society.

Am I making myself clearer now? And if WoW still has technical issues please come back and clarify further.

 

[Zephyrus]

It's interesting then that you decided to participate in a discussion forum.

what it there to discuss with people whose only ability to discuss things is to shame others for their different opinion?

I gave my opinion on the subject. People are ridiculous and nothing more than whinners.

At which point you came and decided to attack me.

Not only did you call me lazy, you also called me ignorant. I'm assuming because I don't share your opinion or because I have no love for these people who are quick to try to destroy a man's career based on something he wore.

I mean, if we're at a point where it's ok to harm others based on the assumption that they're offended by their attire, can I start bashing skulls in whenever I see something I dislike?

I mean, it offended me.

So it's better if I take drastic measures to stop people from expressing themselves.

 

[Mechanized]

Oh for fuck sakes. It's just a tacky ass shirt.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

"I know why you wear a shirt like that [...]"

"I'm not a scientist! I'm not a scientist!"

 

[KHarvey16]

what it there to discuss with people whose only ability to discuss things is to shame others for their different opinion?

I gave my opinion on the subject. People are ridiculous and nothing more than whinners.

At which point you came and decided to attack me.

Not only did you call me lazy, you also called me ignorant. I'm assuming because I don't share your opinion or because I have no love for these people who are quick to try to destroy a man's career based on something he wore.

I mean, if we're at a point where it's ok to harm others based on the assumption that they're offended by their attire, can I start bashing skulls in whenever I see something I dislike?

I mean, it offended me.

So it's better if I take drastic measures to stop people from expressing themselves.

Calling you lazy and ignorant is not an attack, they are descriptions of you based on your behavior. This post serves as additional justification. Your reasoning and understanding is poor. You have admittedly not read anything, yet claim no one is presenting any worthwhile arguments. How would you know?

 

[Elaugaufein]

Asking a company to fire a CEO is a movement without a well defined goal?

Your strategy throughout this discussion has been to erect strawmen and extend position into absurdity. You're excessively verbose without actually saying anything.

My strategy has been to illustrate where this will go without limits in the hope of actually getting those limits / visions of an ideal society given to me, so that I can consider them and decide if I find the tradeoffs acceptable. What I have gotten is a discussion with a zeitgeist so assured of its own self-righteous truth that it can't recognize my hypothetical and attached request for what limits it would place to prevent itself becoming said hypothetical as a valid intellectual inquiry or that my fairly minor disagreements with it are not some kind of comedic performance for my own amusement.

 

[berzeli]

You mean the extreme outcome I gave as an example of where this line of thinking leads without any restraints, in a vain attempt to get people to actually state what they want in some kind of concrete form. The one that I repeatedly said I don't think people want and that I don't think could come about because people would sour of it before it could be arrived at ? And I still haven't gotten any kind of clear definition what limit is put on the cost of inclusiveness to individuality or what the ideal vision of society is, but I don't think I'm going to get one.

But you seem to argue that it is a possibility. Your entire premise is insane, there is nothing I can say that will give you the answer you want. The ideal "cost of inclusiveness to individuality" is none, it is possible to be an individual without offending someone. I don't know how you think that there is an easily understandable definition of what individuality is that you can quantify and put limits to.

The ideal society is an individual concept so yet again I'm not sure how I'm supposed to give you an answer that you will accept.

I'm not going to engage with you any more if you continue on this path.

 

[KHarvey16]

My strategy has been to illustrate where this will go without limits in the hope of actually getting those limits / visions of an ideal society given to me, so that I can consider them and decide if I find the tradeoffs acceptable. What I have gotten is a discussion with a zeitgeist so assured of its own self-righteous truth that it can't recognize my hypothetical and attached request for what limits it would place to prevent itself becoming said hypothetical as a valid intellectual inquiry or that my fairly minor disagreements with it are not some kind of comedic performance for my own amusement.

Your hypotheticals are dumb and that's why no one is taking anything you say seriously. Your reasoning and logic are so flawed as to be laughable.

And you didn't even address my response to your post.

 

[User 479360]

Why even wear that shirt on TV? It's tacky to begin with, and most of all offensive to sensitive people.

 

[Meh3D]

I could go on about this. In fact I acutally did by continuing in word. I ended up writing a couple of pages but I'll save everyone from the long read. I only say this because sexism is a topic I come across every day and involves me personally.


I don't like this controversy about the the shirt. I especially do not like this Twitter person who tweeted a short message to imply this shirt is responsible for sexual discrimination of women in the science. I do not believe this man had to apologize for anything. I really dislike this form of “activism” which is nothing more than policing forms of expression from an arm chair. The Verge article is the worst of offender in this whole mess. They fabricate a story and setting and somehow use this shirt to materialize this story. It's nothing more than a cheap trick when they really have nothing to bring to the discussion on the subject. Never mind the fact that they know nothing about him. Nothing but unverified baseless claims to attack his character.

The most frustrating part of this discussion is they normally end up in a war of rhetorics and aphorism. There is not one one cause to rule them all when discussing sexism. I look at this man with the shirt and I don't see the shirt as a cause or something that perpetuates sexism. In fact, it doesn't imply anything about it. Sexualization and being sexist are two different things and sexism is complex and its causes are multi fold. I get frustrated because people use this energy to fight “boogie men” by policing language and expression instead of putting that effort into actually fighting sexism.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Your hypotheticals are dumb and that's why no one is taking anything you say seriously. Your reasoning and logic are so flawed as to be laughable.

And you didn't even address my response to your post.

And after what you just said, I'm glad I didn't waste the time because you wouldn't have given it any consideration. You've already drawn your opinion on me and anything I say based on my lack of total agreement with you.

 

[Warm Machine]

Serious question. Is the shirt sexist in and of itself and should such a thing even exist?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This thread is like a carousel of people dropping by to say "I don't care about this, and it's irritating that you do."

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

With the way this shirt is being equated to something that says "Niggers Suck" one would think the depictions of these women were barefoot and pregnant. Someone deemed it a "space sluts" shirt but where are they getting the slut depiction from? What poses determines they are sluts? Is it because they are in bikinis? Is that what defines a slut?

I'm seeing some awfully flawed reasoning when it comes to actually defining what's actually on this shirt and what in fact is not on this shirt.

 

[KHarvey16]

And after what you just said, I'm glad I didn't waste the time because you wouldn't have given it any consideration. You've already drawn your opinion on me and anything I say based on my lack of total agreement with you.

Not based on the fact you disagree, but the manner and reasons for which you disagree. Your position is flawed and doesn't make sense. You constantly erect strawmen and extend points to absurdity so you can say "well I don't want what I just made up to happen, therefore you're wrong."

People have tried to be very patient with you but you are not arguing in good faith and it's clear you came in with predispositions and have no desire to question or examine them.

 

[Stet]

Does something have to be offensive to be inappropriate?

 

[Herpes Reasons]

You just outlined the differences between how sexes are viewed. Women don't wear shirts or really have shirts of sexy guys, but men can find shirts of sexy girls. There's something you can read between the lines here.

Women have posters of sexy men just as men do of women. Women have playgirl as men have playboy. Women have strip clubs as men do. Don't act as though a shirt is the totality of apparrell or items that may be taken as sexist.

 

[KHarvey16]

With the way this shirt is being equated to something that says "Niggers Suck"

It wasn't. I feel like I need to hold people's hands here.

The argument he presented would apply to a shirt like that just as much as it does to this one. That was the point.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

It wasn't. I feel like I need to hold people's hands here.

The argument he presented would apply to a shirt like that just as much as it does to this one. That was the point.

No offense but using inflammatory comparisons just to get a point across only degrades the discussion and civil discourse.

 

[berzeli]

I could go on about this. I don't like this controversy about the the shirt. I especially do not like this Twitter person who tweeted a short message to imply this shirt is responsible for sexual discrimination of women in the science. I do not believe this man had to apologize for anything. I really dislike this form of “activism” which is nothing more than policing forms of expression from an arm chair. The Verge article is the worst of offender in this whole mess. They fabricate a story and setting and somehow use this shirt to materialize this story. It's nothing more than a cheap trick when they really have nothing to bring to the discussion on the subject. Never mind the fact that they know nothing about him. Nothing but unverified baseless claims to attack his character.

Please show me this twitter message.
Please show me how The Verge made everything up including the setting of the ESA HQ.

The most frustrating part of this discussion is they normally end up in a war of rhetorics and aphorism. There is not one one cause to rule them all when discussing sexism. I look at this man with the shirt and I don't see the shirt as a cause or something that perpetuates sexism. In fact, it doesn't imply anything about it. Sexualization and being sexist are two different things and sexism is complex and its causes are multi fold. I get frustrated because people use this energy to fight “boogie men” by policing language and expression instead of putting that effort into actually fighting sexism.

It is a shirt that has scantily clad women as decoration, i.e. women are literally sex objects. Some people do not believe that such a shirt sends a positive message and that it definitely doesn't belong on such a public outing. STEM fields already have an ongoing discussion about the treatment of women, this feeds into said discussion.

 

[Prisoner]

Where can I buy it?

 

[berzeli]

No offense but using inflammatory comparisons just to get a point across only degrades the discussion and civil discourse.

Please do give an example of how to explain the logic behind why people are upset that doesn't "degrade the discussion and civil discourse" when people are adamantly saying that since they don't find this particular shirt offending the situation can't be offensive.

 

[Dice//]

Serious question. Is the shirt sexist in and of itself and should such a thing even exist?

The point of this and the last 20+ pages of discussion is that it's just not simple.

On one respect, the "pro-shirt" angle, if you could say is:
= It's just a shirt
= He did something amazing and should not have to apologize for it
= This is taking away from the true achievement
= He should be himself, even if it means a sexy shirt
= I want that shirt
= Girls can wear a shirt with sexy men on it if they want and no one will care
= The shirt does not stop women from entering the field; there are other barriers

The other is more or less "anti-shirt" or with reservations:
= STEM has an underrepresentation of female scientists; it's a boys club and wearing this might not by why, but expose that this may be true if such an item isn't given even a raised eyebrow in his particular circle
= This was a nationally televised event; his attire was unprofessional and in poor taste for something seen by a wide audience, male and female
= ...On that note, the shirt was simply tacky, pointless, and it's hard to imagine who would spend money on it....
= People hand waiving this may be swayed to "discreet sexism" where we've been taught to find this sort of thing ok whereas such an idea/concept doesn't really cross over or translate into women's fashion choices and selections (women don't have or opt for "sexy man shirts" as often as men seem to have or have available)
= Women as sexually pleasing eye candy is an old, dated, and misrepresentation of honest, hard-working women.

I definitely feel a pick and choose works best. This is "just a shirt" but there is a lot to read in between the lines that have made this dialogue go on as long as it has.

I also still argue more disappointing than the actual shirt is peoples "blind okays" to the shirt as "just a shirt" that at all a topic worth discussing and basically telling SJW's to shut up....

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

The shirt in and of itself is not a problem

The fact that he rocked that motherfucker in an international interview is laughable

The fact that people are harassing the poor dude over it is a problem

The fact that people are losing their shit over the apology (a.k.a. his personal recognition that he did something off which, unless I've missed some follow up article, was not forced out of him) is a problem

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Where can I buy it?

You support sexism, don't you.

Spoiler

wait for it

 

[Christine]

Someone deemed it a "space sluts" shirt

Someone in this case being the woman who sewed it, a month ago, on instagram, not some nebulous unknown someone during the controversy.

It may actually be the name of the print pattern, not quite sure.

 

[KHarvey16]

No offense but using inflammatory comparisons just to get a point across only degrades the discussion and civil discourse.

The point was it was inflammatory. If an argument is presented that also supports something so absurd it's obviously a bad argument.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

Please do give an example of how to explain the logic behind why people are upset that doesn't "degrade the discussion and civil discourse" when people are adamantly saying that since they don't find this particular shirt offending the situation can't be offensive.

Honestly, if that's the recourse that has to be taken to try and convince someone who is likely too stubborn to change their way of thinking it's probably not worth pursuing.

 

[Stet]

Where can I buy it?

Ask Guy Fieri, it looks like something he'd wear.

 

[Dice//]

Women have posters of sexy men just as men do of women. Women have playgirl as men have playboy. Women have strip clubs as men do. Don't act as though a shirt is the totality of apparrell or items that may be taken as sexist.

In a 50/50 split? If so I'll shut up then.
If so, what are they wearing? How are they dressed?

Also, are men sexualized on TV, in movies, or in videogames the same way?? Even baring in mind gender differences here (girls in skirts, men in pants) you can't say they are.

Bayonetta raised a lot of huff for this because the game loves focusing on her goods more than a game would ever dream to zoom in on a guy's package, ass, or chest.

 

[Dice//]

The shirt in and of itself is not a problem

The fact that he rocked that motherfucker in an international interview is laughable

The fact that people are harassing the poor dude over it is a problem

The fact that people are losing their shit over the apology (a.k.a. his personal recognition that he did something off which, unless I've missed some follow up article, was not forced out of him) is a problem

Agreed

Agreed

Agreed (really it's more the dialogue in Internet-places that's keeping the topic alive I think)

And good to know the last part

EDIT: shit double post, sorry.

 

[PsychBat!]

snip

Bravo! You typed what this thread really needed.

 

[berzeli]

Honestly, if that's the recourse that has to be taken to try and convince someone who is likely too stubborn to change their way of thinking it's probably not worth pursuing.

I still don't see how using a hypothetical scenario reflects badly on the real person. When I'm discussing on this board I'm assuming that they are able to distinguish between reality and fantasy.

No one is saying that his shirt is as bad as wearing one where Obama gets lynched by Glenn Beck or something. But since people aren't emphasising with the ones who have an issue an analogue using said offensive imagery to explain that wearing a shirt with what some think is offensive imagery in a highly public setting is a bad idea. Not that the two shirts are equally bad.

 

[3phemeral]

And in being contextually aware of your actions you cease taking any potentially offensive ones. Any actions identifying a group ('culture') are almost inherently potentially offensive to anyone who is a member of other groups who may wish to join this group, therefore they cannot be taken.

So while not being the goal it does seem to be the only outcome that meets the desires.

Again, context is important. I hate to repeat this but what's being argued here is the pervasiveness of casual sexism. There is a difference between wearing it at home, a public place, and wearing it at a professional work environment, where these attitudes persist even when unintentional. I think it's interesting that your frame this situation as a censorship of "potentially offensive" content. Just don't be surprised when people make assumptions* about your character when you make that conscious decision to wear potentially offensive attire in situations where people who are potentially offended may speak up.

*Note: I'm not advocating bullying or unwarranted attacks on his character.

I'm having trouble understanding why people disagree with the notion that it's casual sexism. It's casual because:

"He's just expressing his eccentricity."
"It's just a t-shirt."
"The hate he's getting is disproportionate to what should be important: the science."
"No one else at work found it offensive."
"He's a good guy and I know he's not sexist."​

These are statements which support the symptom of a bigger issue. They're satellite problems that exist specifically because very well intentioned people don't recognize that in this context, it's inappropriate.

I'm sure that everyone can agree to the following:

1. Women have been and continue to be sexually objectified.
2. There is a vast discrepancy in gender representation in STEM fields.
3. There are many factors that are the cause of sexist attitudes.

You have to keep in mind that sexism and objectification of women has been happening for ages. It's had time to branch and split into literal accessories that seem innocuous simply because it's been normalized to be that way. Women's rights has only been a comparatively recent thing, so it's understandable why it's been difficult to express to others what exactly is contributory. The argument that "it's a callback to an era of pin-up model" doesn't excuse the very notion that pinup girls are the product of the same attitudes.

There are several posters commenting various revisions of the same position: "This isn't the cause of sexism." | "Do you think this is the reason why women aren't in STEM?"

And that's true to an extent. Treating a symptom of a disease only masks the symptom. But the symptom can help you diagnose the real problem. Does anyone have an issue with that?

 

[Dice//]

[post]

It needs to be said, but I've loved everything you've typed here. You've helped demonstrate that the issue is all but simple and I greatly appreciate that against the losing battle of "it's just a shirt"-isms.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

I just can't imagine getting upset over something so meaningless. The fact he had to apologise is just sad IMO.

 

[Nibel]

Is he a sexist? From the background information most reasonable people agree it doesn't seem like it. Is the shirt sexist? Hell if I know. If it was a Botticelli on the shirt would people be in uproar? Was Rumsfeld acting as a paragon of feminism when he covered up the Spirit of Justice? To what degree does the quality of the art, posing, gender of the artist or the wearer determine if it's sexist? A significant amount of the controversy is probably attributable to the subjective nature of those criteria. If a female scientist had instead worn a shirt with a bunch of shirtless dudes, I could see some of the people complaining about it now saying it was empowering, and some of the people defending it now complaining that it proved a sexist double standard.

My impression is that it's not sexist in itself, but it's not a clear line because context matters. It comes down to where you think the line between individual expression and responsibility to society should fall. I see where the people who say it may inadvertently send the wrong message in this context are coming from. I also believe there's a way to convey that without being an asshole about it to the point that you make the dude break down in tears. That's not just for his benefit, but also for the benefit of the cause you are trying to support. Nobody likes a bully, and by being one you run the risk of making the issue about you instead of the issue itself. Sometimes I wonder how much certain people care about an issue versus how much they care about being holier than thou.

This isn't some foaming at the mouth misogynist. He's just a dude who spent the last several years helping send a tin can hurtling 4 billion miles through the inky void to land on space rock instead of studying the nuances of the causes of gender inequality. Wearing the shirt in this context is arguably a mistake, but to claim it somehow undermines everything he and the other team members accomplished (as in the Verge article) is the kind of mean-spirited sarcastic hyperbole that makes the very people you would hope to convince roll their eyes. It's counterproductive because instead of convincing people of the importance of your issue, you instead draw a line in the sand. On one side are the people who are always right about everything (you and everyone who agrees with you), and on the other are the people who are wrong (human excrement). There's no room for conversation, for human imperfection, because you've already set the terms, either people agree with you or they are trash not worth listening to. There's no room for grey--for the possibility that this is just an average dude who maybe has questionable fashion tastes. There needs to be a middle ground between the perfect angels and literally Hitler, because if the standard is perfection no one can meet it, so why should they bother trying?

I mean it's easy to forgive the guy now if you complained about his shirt because he apologized, but what if he hadn't? It's possible to disagree with someone's choices without hating them or turning them into the enemy, but when you isolate yourself into a group of like-minded people it's easy to lose perspective. That's as true of people in the "boys' club" as it is of the internet activists who might hope to change it. We could all (myself included) do with practicing a little more empathy.

Fantastic post. I think it adds some great value to the discussion and made me think about this issue in different ways, so thank you for that.

 

[KHarvey16]

If only we had a thread full of discussion about the issue that someone could read to maybe garner an understanding of the reason behind people getting upset.