Support NeoGAF

[prag16]

Surprised to see no topic for this. Horrific tragedy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hot-dead-at-florida-high-school-idUSKCN1FY2WI

This will of course turn into a gun control discussion, and understandably so. I'll probably weigh in on that aspect later, but in the meantime, thoughts and prayers to the victims and those close to them.

 

[kopitarrulez_11]

Wow shooter survived hope the justice system reams him hard the scumbag

 

[N3DS]

I always have a hard time understanding these lunatics' motives....Why the hell would you mass kill people? What will that even accomplish if your sole reasoning is just spread terror?

 

[rokkerkory]

Surprised to see no topic for this. Horrific tragedy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hot-dead-at-florida-high-school-idUSKCN1FY2WI

This will of course turn into a gun control discussion, and understandably so. I'll probably weigh in on that aspect later, but in the meantime, thoughts and prayers to the victims and those close to them.

Gun control discussion? Not sure.

Anyone talking about what happened in Vegas just few months ago?

 

[SatansReverence]

I always have a hard time understanding these lunatics' motives....Why the hell would you mass kill people? What will that even accomplish if your sole reasoning is just spread terror?

If you want to see into the dark side of humanity there are writings from one of the columbine shooters.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Surprised to see no topic for this. Horrific tragedy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hot-dead-at-florida-high-school-idUSKCN1FY2WI

This will of course turn into a gun control discussion, and understandably so. I'll probably weigh in on that aspect later, but in the meantime, thoughts and prayers to the victims and those close to them.

Fuck thoughts and prayers. Yes, we need to care about the victims, but hollow words don’t solve the problem. It’s cultural.

The media hypes this shit up and gives the perps their much desired moment of glory. The 24/7 news cycle gets a sadistic continuous orgasm for a week over these tragedies.

We aren’t getting rid of guns in America. That Pandora’s box isn’t going to close no matter how much we wish it would. Trying to do so would tear us apart as a nation.

So how do we deal with it? Frankly I don’t know for sure. I do see a trend tho. Most of the shooters are bullied or are social outcasts.

They want to feel vindicated. Victims of bullying can’t fight back without reprocussions with the current rules in place. Encourage people to stand up for themselves without punishment. Let kids beat the snot out of one another again. Zero tolerance rules for fighting are a contributing factor.

The shooters tend to be middle class males because they have no support structure. In the 90s when I was a high school student, it was already beginning to be a problem. Victim blaming is a huge part of what pushes these boys over the edge. I remember vividly to this day being told that I was being bullied becase I was a good student and too smart and too socially awkward. That I was asking for it and that I was just an easy target. And that came from the school counselor. I’m sure that what I experienced is even worse these days with the advent of social media and support networks in schools that were raised with that mentality.

Frankly there were a few kids I fantasized about splattering across homeroom for the daily insults, being called a faggot or fat or disgusting. No one stands up for the bullied. By that I mean peers. The void one can fall into with that constant abuse is deep and hard to climb out of. Luckilly I had a support network and friends tho, and was able to leave that hellhole of preppy upper class jocks to an environment of other kids like me every day. I also was willing to punch and kick my way away from them, even if it got me in trouble.

Let kids fight and release the aggressions. Let bullies get their teeth knocked out. Bottling that agression up is a big factor here. Easy access to weapons is another.

 

[HoodWinked]

I always have a hard time understanding these lunatics' motives....Why the hell would you mass kill people? What will that even accomplish if your sole reasoning is just spread terror?

the kid was expelled from the school so he's likely combative (or has behavioral problems) and may have gone back to the school as some sort of revenge.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html

in this article it even mentions something interesting:

“A lot of people were saying that it would be him,” the student told WFOR-TV. “They would say he would be the one to shoot up the school. Everyone predicted it.”

 

[Platinumstorm]

I wanted to make a post about this a few hours ago, but I was curious how "given up" people were regarding this topic.

There has to be a change in how this information is presented. Right now this is "routine", and we have a government that is incapable of providing solutions for this very tangible public health threat.
There needs to be outrage on this, no matter how graphic it has to be presented. I don't give a damn that this guy wore a MAGA hat as his profile picture. I care that we have a public health threat that takes life repeatedly without engagement from a failed government.

Do something.

 

[TheShadowLord]

Neither side is willing to compromise so things like this are going to happen no matter how many mass shooters there are.

 

[SatansReverence]

the kid was expelled from the school so he's likely combative (or has behavioral problems) and may have gone back to the school as some sort of revenge.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/14/us/nikolas-cruz-florida-shooting.html

in this article it even mentions something interesting:

“A lot of people were saying that it would be him,” the student told WFOR-TV. “They would say he would be the one to shoot up the school. Everyone predicted it.”

That quote reads as "Yea, we knew he was getting bullied, did nothing about it or even did it ourselves."

Cybrwzrd Good post on bullying. The moment you get punished for fighting back against bullies is the moment the system breaks. Experienced it myself.

 

[bitbydeath]

Here's the real kicker -

In total there have been 290 school shootings in the US since 2013.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wo...shooter-at-a-high-school-20180215-h0w3v2.html

How US? How?

 

[Mohonky]

I wanted to make a post about this a few hours ago, but I was curious how "given up" people were regarding this topic.

There's nothing to be said that hasnt already been said and repeated time and again now.

The rest of the developed world just looks at this as some weird American thing. Unless both sides of the government plan to come to the party on some sort of control its just going to keep happening.

 

[prag16]

Fuck thoughts and prayers. Yes, we need to care about the victims, but hollow words don’t solve the problem. It’s cultural.

The media hypes this shit up and gives the perps their much desired moment of glory. The 24/7 news cycle gets a sadistic continuous orgasm for a week over these tragedies.

We aren’t getting rid of guns in America. That Pandora’s box isn’t going to close no matter how much we wish it would. Trying to do so would tear us apart as a nation.

So how do we deal with it? Frankly I don’t know for sure. I do see a trend tho. Most of the shooters are bullied or are social outcasts.

They want to feel vindicated. Victims of bullying can’t fight back without reprocussions with the current rules in place. Encourage people to stand up for themselves without punishment. Let kids beat the snot out of one another again. Zero tolerance rules for fighting are a contributing factor.

The shooters tend to be middle class males because they have no support structure. In the 90s when I was a high school student, it was already beginning to be a problem. Victim blaming is a huge part of what pushes these boys over the edge. I remember vividly to this day being told that I was being bullied becase I was a good student and too smart and too socially awkward. That I was asking for it and that I was just an easy target. And that came from the school counselor. I’m sure that what I experienced is even worse these days with the advent of social media and support networks in schools that were raised with that mentality.

Frankly there were a few kids I fantasized about splattering across homeroom for the daily insults, being called a faggot or fat or disgusting. No one stands up for the bullied. By that I mean peers. The void one can fall into with that constant abuse is deep and hard to climb out of. Luckilly I had a support network and friends tho, and was able to leave that hellhole of preppy upper class jocks to an environment of other kids like me every day. I also was willing to punch and kick my way away from them, even if it got me in trouble.

Let kids fight and release the aggressions. Let bullies get their teeth knocked out. Bottling that agression up is a big factor here. Easy access to weapons is another.

I don't disagree with the vast majority of this.

It's certainly always something that has me shaking my head. The media hypes the shit out of these 17 deaths. Meanwhile the United States averages something like 30-50 murders per day. The mass shootings are the only ones that get national coverage, generally. That builds a certain perception, which downplays the fact that violent crime is down, and has been trending downward for quite some time. Guns per person has been steadily rising as gun crime has been dropping.

Not to say there's no issue, but it's overblown for sure. And I'm not sure I have the answer in terms of how to curtail shit like this regardless. Like you said, banning guns is impossible in this country. That's just the reality. I'm sure they can tinker around the edges, but the end result will most likely be inconveniencing law abiding citizens for basically no gain.

 

[SatansReverence]

Here's the real kicker -
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wo...shooter-at-a-high-school-20180215-h0w3v2.html
How US? How?

I would question that statistic actually. Doesn't seem to add up.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

There's nothing to be said that hasnt already been said and repeated time and again now.

The rest of the developed world just looks at this as some weird American thing. Unless both sides of the government plan to come to the party on some sort of control its just going to keep happening.

Yes, the shooting is a uniquely American thing. But bullying in other countries does end up with similar issues. Look at Japan. The high school suicide rate there is pretty fucking alarming. The media there too latches on to those deaths like a lamprey on a shark.

Bullying in Japan is a huge issue. Hell, they still discriminate against people whose great-great grandparents did “unclean” jobs. “Burakumin”. I’d argue they are treated much worse than minorities in the US, and that shit gets swept under the rug over there.



Sure the kids who kill themselves aren’t shooting up schools, but the root cause may be the same.

 

[Mohonky]

Yes, the shooting is a uniquely American thing. But bullying in other countries does end up with similar issues. Look at Japan. The high school suicide rate there is pretty fucking alarming. The media there too latches on to those deaths like a lamprey on a shark.

Bullying in Japan is a huge issue. Hell, they still discriminate against people whose great-great grandparents did “unclean” jobs. “Burakumin”. I’d argue they are treated much worse than minorities in the US, and that shit gets swept under the rug over there.



Sure the kids who kill themselves aren’t shooting up schools, but the root cause may be the same.

Well they can't get guns to kill everyone else with so.......

Beside the point. America has a gun control issue. Ignoring it isnt making it go away.

 

[F0rneus]

It happened again and it'll keep happening. Nothing's gonna change.

US gun laws are borked to hell and back, but "liberty" is more important for some and they are the ones with the money and the political clout. That's it. Gun ownership is fine, but the current laws are fucked up and filled with loopholes to exploit. No other developed countries have gun laws quite like the US, and no other developed countries have constant mass shootings like this. Coincidence? Of course not.

The fact that 82% of guns used in mass shootings were legally bought should be a sobering thought. But it won't be. Crazy fucking people shouldn't have easy access to guns flat out. Hell access to guns shouldn't be easy at all. Possible? Yes. Absolutely. But not like this.

 

[Typical]

Profile pic of shooter.

 

[Mohonky]

Profile pic of shooter.

Not why he felt the need to cover his face

 

[Grinchy]

I'm glad the shooter survived. That leaves a lifetime of hell to go through.

 

[mrkgoo]

I always have a hard time understanding these lunatics' motives....Why the hell would you mass kill people? What will that even accomplish if your sole reasoning is just spread terror?

Trying to find reasoning and logic in a mind that is not sound is a tough one, as it doesn't mesh with normal reasoning. It's like trying to see the side of an argument you will never agree with.

This is a horrible tragedy. It brings tears to my eyes that this kind of thing happens. You would think that any society with a semblance of compassion would do their utmost to prevent this kind of thing happening. At least try.

 

[KevinKeene]

Indeed, what can be said that hasn't been.said a thousand times in these threads? It's tragic, frustrating, and very, very dumb. And unnecessary.

We aren’t getting rid of guns in America. That Pandora’s box isn’t going to close no matter how much we wish it would. Trying to do so would tear us apart as a nation.

And that's why nothing will ever change. Giving up on any change from the beginning.
Would it be easy to get guns out of the hands of civilians? Probably not. But most changes that are worth it aren't easy. The people in Syria wil have to spend a lifetime and more to rebuild their country. Worth it. Refugees are a big problem in Germany. Worth it. I'm massively obese and losing weight is a harf, slow process. Worth it.

Anything can be changed if you keep at it. How many people sacrificed their lifes to protest sexism, racism, or even royalty if you go further back in time? In the end, it always was worth it.

Gettting rid of guns should be USA's generational project. Get it started, accept that there will be setbacks, but persevere. Will be worth it.

 

[KevinKeene]

Trying to find reasoning and logic in a mind that is not sound is a tough one, as it doesn't mesh with normal reasoning. It's like trying to see the side of an argument you will never agree with.

I disagree a bit and would like to apply some perspective. Killing other human beings is always wrong, that's besides the question.
I don't know what this guy's motivation was, but for many, being bullied in school is a huge contribuying factor. There's really little worse in the western world than bullying. I'm now past 30, but I still remember the bullying from school.
These guys would wait until I was alone, then hurl insults at me, hitting me against my shoulders repeatedly, all the while grinning with the highest degree of satisfaction. But you cannot do anything against it. Eventually I fought back, but guess who got punished. Mhm.
Years later, these bullies now have a successful career, and people praise them for changing from the jerks they were to the upstanding citizens they're now. Meanwhile I go to therapy, have no career to show for, and struggle with both obesity and depression.
That's not fair.

Had I been living in the USA, where I can grab a gun easily, I don't know what I might have done.

And that's not a unique story at all. But adults don't give a crap about bullying. Teachers are afraid of parents. Parents never accept that THEIR sweet little angel did something so terrible. And on it goes. The only thing you can do when you're bullied is to tell yourself 'only a couple more years, only a couple more years'. Or grab a gun. Fortunately, the latter isn't that easy in Europe.

 

[TTOOLL]

Sad but nothing will happen, unfortunately.

This aspect of violence is not necessarily linked to gun culture though and I think that because I live in a country (Brazil) that killed more than 60 THOUSAND people in 2016 alone. These are violent deaths and the "funny" thing is, it's almost impossible to buy a legal gun here.
Criminals have a lot of them though.

So, what I'm saying is that even if you have more strict gun control in the US I don't think mass shootings would stop or even decrease. It has became something cultural, it has spread over lunatics' minds.

 

[mrkgoo]

I disagree a bit and would like to apply some perspective. Killing other human beings is always wrong, that's besides the question.
I don't know what this guy's motivation was, but for many, being bullied in school is a huge contribuying factor. There's really little worse in the western world than bullying. I'm now past 30, but I still remember the bullying from school.
These guys would wait until I was alone, then hurl insults at me, hitting me against my shoulders repeatedly, all the while grinning with the highest degree of satisfaction. But you cannot do anything against it. Eventually I fought back, but guess who got punished. Mhm.
Years later, these bullies now have a successful career, and people praise them for changing from the jerks they were to the upstanding citizens they're now. Meanwhile I go to therapy, have no career to show for, and struggle with both obesity and depression.
That's not fair.

Had I been living in the USA, where I can grab a gun easily, I don't know what I might have done.

And that's not a unique story at all. But adults don't give a crap about bullying. Teachers are afraid of parents. Parents never accept that THEIR sweet little angel did something so terrible. And on it goes. The only thing you can do when you're bullied is to tell yourself 'only a couple more years, only a couple more years'. Or grab a gun. Fortunately, the latter isn't that easy in Europe.

Totally true. But I don't see how this explains why one person would mass kill others whereas someone else under similar conditions does not. The reasoning of a mind that chooses to do this is not within the normal standard deviation. At least I'd hope not.

I don't believe it's a straight matter of having gun access, though that most definitely plays a significant factor (and possibly the factor that should be able to have something done about it).

I would agree bullying is a huge problem. And it's at the root of a lot of issues, and most definitely should be tackled. It's probably a lot worse now with social media and technology too, where bullying can follow you home and beyond the school. But surely there are more options available than either wait it out, or grab a gun. Surely.

 

[llien]

“A lot of people were saying that it would be him,” the student told WFOR-TV. “They would say he would be the one to shoot up the school. Everyone predicted it.”

Hardly surprising:

In an interview with Reuters, Davis recalled his “strange talking sometimes about knives and guns,” adding, “no one ever took him seriously.”

Chad Williams, 18, a senior at Stoneman Douglas, described Cruz as “kind of an outcast” who was known for unruly behavior at school, including a penchant for pulling false fire alarms, and was “crazy about guns.”

For things to change normal voters need to start caring about stricter gun laws, as far as only NRAs care, there will be no progress.

I disagree a bit and would like to apply some perspective...

That's sad, I recall stats of one out of 3 girls (mostly non physical, I guess) and one out of 4 boys being victimized, but note that there is nothing in the reports that would suggest him being bullied.

 

[grumpyGamer]

I know people like guns in america and i get the "it´s our right"
But you need gun control, when a child can get his hands on a weapon and kill with the same ease as piking a rock from the street, there is a problem.

 

[George Washington]

RIP to the victims. My heart goes out to their families and friends

 

[Blood Borne]

Gun control is simply an euphemism for ban all guns. I vehemently against gun control. Using the logic of gun control proponents, we should ban all immigrants because some of them bombed us.

 

[Blood Borne]

I know people like guns in america and i get the "it´s our right"
But you need gun control, when a child can get his hands on a weapon and kill with the same ease as piking a rock from the street, there is a problem.

We've banned hard drugs but hasn't helped in any way, anyone can get drugs easily. Banning guns will just create monopoly of gun ownership for criminals.

 

[Sosokrates]

RIP to all the victims.
American schools should implement security cameras with AI facial recognition like they have everywhere in China, because lets face it gun control is not going to change any time soon, so other solutions need to be implemented.

 

[Alx]

RIP to all the victims.
American schools should implement security cameras with AI facial recognition like they have everywhere in China, because lets face it gun control is not going to change any time soon, so other solutions need to be implemented.

I don't think AI facial recognition is reliable enough for safety control, and it's easy to fool. Also how would it help for schools, would they assume that anybody who isn't a registered student is a potential criminal ? In that case a secured badge access would be more effective than recognition. And there would still be the issue of cases when the attacker is a student himself.
Video technology is mostly useful afterwards, once the attack has happened you can use it to track back the persons involved. But there's not much it can do in real time.

 

[Dunedain_Ranger]

I haven’t posted anything political in a long time people believe what they want but the fact that I have to tear up every day dropping my babies off at school worrying if they will experience such sickness shows the state of this nation ..........

 

[Sosokrates]

I don't think AI facial recognition is reliable enough for safety control, and it's easy to fool. Also how would it help for schools, would they assume that anybody who isn't a registered student is a potential criminal ? In that case a secured badge access would be more effective than recognition. And there would still be the issue of cases when the attacker is a student himself.
Video technology is mostly useful afterwards, once the attack has happened you can use it to track back the persons involved. But there's not much it can do in real time.

I watched a documentary about Chinas AI CCTV and it was very effective in real time.

In this case ex students would be on a red flag list and when the system picks up a red flag an armed security guard is alerted.
The best solution would be this combined with fingerprint scanners, and now fingerprint scanning tech is a lot cheaper then it used to be.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I am a gun owner. For personal home protection. I am also a believer in stricter gun laws.

But that ain’t happening anytime soon.

Not because of regular citizens like myself. The people who profit from selling guns and their allies are the problem. They profit from events like this. “Hurry and buy now before the Democrats stop you”. They did it for 8 years while Obama was in office.

 

[The Giant]

I feel nothing about this, it's just another day. You Americans really are a lost cause, since nothing is ever gonna change. The fact there has been 18 schools shootings this year already is just insane.

Your shit 2nd amendment needs to burn into the ground.

 

[Breakage]

I saw a short clip of kids trapped in a class room when the sound of gunfire started. It was truly chilling. Film and video game depictions of gunfire don't even compare to such moments.

 

[David___]

This will be forever evergreen

 

[Mohonky]

Gun control is simply an euphemism for ban all guns.

That would explain why we (Australians) own more guns now than ever before.

I vehemently against gun control.

We've been enlightened by your other posts so this will surprise no one.

Using the logic of gun control proponents, we should ban all immigrants because some of them bombed us.

.......and yet I'm going to out on a limb here and guess you aren't pro-immigration right? Wouldnt that be ironic?

"We should all be allowed guns even if a few hundred crazies are going to go around killing us, its just something that happens"

But at the same time,

"no, no immigrants through, one of them might be a crazy and kill us!"

 

[cromofo]

USA weirds me out. 18 school shootings since the turn of the year I've read. I guess that happens when u drop a bunch of guns into a messed up society.

More outrage over flags, anthem kneeling and shit than kids dying. Messed up.

 

[grumpyGamer]

We've banned hard drugs but hasn't helped in any way, anyone can get drugs easily. Banning guns will just create monopoly of gun ownership for criminals.

Not saying to ban, saying of sorting in some way, what tipe of people can get them

 

[KevinKeene]

USA weirds me out. 18 school shootings since the turn of the year I've read. I guess that happens when u drop a bunch of guns into a messed up society.

More outrage over flags, anthem kneeling and shit than kids dying. Messed up.

Yeah, it's super weird. In Germany, we still remember the shootings in Erfurt and Winnenden, both of which took place more than 10 years ago.

Meanwhile in the USA, it's just another day, accompanied with 'we can't change it anyway'.

I don't understand it.

 

[lil puff]

I dunno, is it just me or am I hearing a bit more discussion on both sides this time?

It seemed like there are quite a few on the right willing to reinstate the ban on assault rifles and more talk about regulating who should be permitted to own them.

Maybe some good can come out of it this time. I dunno, maybe not. It would be a start.

 

[lil puff]

Gun control is simply an euphemism for ban all guns. I vehemently against gun control. Using the logic of gun control proponents, we should ban all immigrants because some of them bombed us.

I am not sure this is true. Do you have an example of a movement to ban all guns?

I am sure that there are a few that would like to ban all guns, but for the most part, people that I hear discuss gun control want sensible regulation. Many of them own guns themselves or support family members that carry for their safety.

I don't care for the analogy that compares guns to human beings, so I will stay away from that one.

 

[synchronicity]

Humanity has always had broken members of the community. The difference is that when "Lars" lost it ages ago, he could only pick up his club/sword/whatever and charge in a maniacal rage against whomever. He may have killed a person, or may have been killed himself before hurting anyone. He likely worked out his rage prior to anything terrible happening because it demanded physical exertion.

Today we live in a world full of sedentary people that have (or use) no physical outlet for their frustrations, and those frustrations just simmer and build until they pop. Couple that with access to devices that can provide lethal outcomes to large numbers in a matter of moments, and it's a recipe for situations like we have today, sadly.

 

[BANGS]

This isn't a gun issue, guns don't kill people. This is a culture issue. These assholes lack discipline, feel entitled to the world, and will burn it down if they don't get it...

There's also the fact that gun safety training in this nation is kind of a joke. I mean, if you're looking for it, you can find quality training. But it's not something alot of people think of when they buy a gun. Many people have all kinds of respect for gun ownership, but no respect for gun safety. This is why we have more people killed by toddlers than struck by lightning...

 

[KevinKeene]

This isn't a gun issue, guns don't kill people.

*groans*

:/

 

[BANGS]

*groans*

:/

Facts hurt?

 

[lil puff]

Well, I do not think guns are the only issue.

But there is no doubt to me that these young adults will either be scarred or somehow affected by this and they won't forget being huddled in a room with bullets blazing. Younger children and their perception of the world around them bothers me. Not taking a single step to use common sense and start with some obvious regulation would be letting them down.

This is not to say that we don't need to tackle mass murders (violence in general) from all angles. It's complex, every situation is different, and indeed there are some deep seeded issues going on. In this particular case, it seems that this guy had a neon sign over his head - how we identify, react and deal with these peculiar behaviors is of utmost importance right now.

 

[KevinKeene]

Facts hurt?

Guns not allowed in Germany: few murder cases
Guns widely spread in USA: lots of murder cases almost every day.

If you want to imply that Americans are somehow inherently broken, that's you. As I seee it, the difference is guns. They kill.