Support NeoGAF

[methos75]

I didn't know the USAF had soldiers.

I am an SF in the USAF, I spend more time with the army than I do my own branch, you do realize the USAF has ground Combat troops also do you not? As to holding people accountable, when did i ever say not to hold whites accountable, hell the imman that killed his fellow Soldiers at camp liberty was white, he was a convert. this is not an race issue because there are both whites and other races that perform similar acts, the difference is that none of them do so because of an idealogy.

 

[Chumly]

Well, Islamic terrorist acts and plots have been carried out and disrupted on every continent except Antarctica plus groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda and other groups around the world have lend credit that there is a sizable amount of followers of Islam that are radicalized and violent.

After the last 40-50 years of it growing people tend to get ideas. The last 10 years haven't exactly shown Islam in a positive light

Bu bu bu bu bu bu bu bu bu but there was this radical christian that killed an abortion doctor!!!!!!



People just need to accept the fact that Islam breeds significant more violence than any other religion.

 

[Cloudy]

People just need to accept the fact that Islam breeds significant more violence than any other religion.

Looking back through history, that's bullshit. Crazy people of all religions kill. Some use their faith to justify it and others don't...

 

[Chumly]

Looking back through history, that's bullshit. Crazy people of all religions kill. Some use their faith to justify it and others don't...

O jeezes so we are going to go back to the crusades again?

In the last 20-40 years what religion has been the most violent.

 

[harSon]

Bu bu bu bu bu bu bu bu bu but there was this radical christian that killed an abortion doctor!!!!!!



People just need to accept the fact that Islam breeds significant more violence than any other religion.

It has more to do with poverty, instability within the region, consistent occupations/wars, etc.

 

[Cloudy]

In the last 20-40 years what religion has been the most violent.

What's the muslim polulation in the US? Maybe 7 or 8%? I bet the amount of violent criminals in our society that are muslim is less than half that...

I just don't think it's wise or fair to label a whole religion as "radical" based on the actions of a crazy few. Or to start looking at other Americans suspiciously cos they are muslim..

 

[Chumly]

What's the muslim polulation in the US? Maybe 7 or 8%? I bet the amount of violent criminals in our society that are muslim is less than half that...

I just don't think it's wise or fair to label a whole religion as "radical" based on the actions of a crazy few. Or to start looking at other Americans suspiciously cos they are muslim..

Maybe muslim apologists should stop bringing up omg a christian killed an abortion doctor and they hate gays. It happens in every single thread on this forum. Something bad about Islam happens and all everyone can say is omg Christianity is just as bad.

 

[Tamanon]

O jeezes so we are going to go back to the crusades again?

In the last 20-40 years what religion has been the most violent.

Are we counting Africa?

 

[Acid08]

Are we counting Africa?

The US and Middle East are the only two regions that count. Duh.

 

[Freshmaker]

Maybe muslim apologists should stop bringing up omg a christian killed an abortion doctor and they hate gays. It happens in every single thread on this forum. Something bad about Islam happens and all everyone can say is omg Christianity is just as bad.

There's a difference between pointing out that both religions have their crazy violent terrorist outliers and saying they both suck equally hard.

 

[scorcho]

In the last 20-40 years what religion has been the most violent.

for added fun, during that timespan which country has been the most 'violent'?

 

[SmokyDave]

I always assumed that the 'War on Terror' was short-hand for 'A War on Islamic Terrorism'. I am yet to see a terrorist group pursued that are not Islamic. Given this, it would seem understandable that muslims in the army may find themselves under slightly more scrutiny than normal.

I don't think for one minute that muslims should not be allowed to join the military but I do think it is an acceptable question to debate. In essence, they are wearing the other teams colours, even if they're not a hooligan (sorry, soccer analogy). How do you clearly define somebodies allegiance?

This is what happens when you fight a war with no clearly defined enemy.

 

[APF]

Of course; and what Muslim doesn't follow foreign clerics preaching rabidly anti-American hatred, or warn of dire consequences if Muslims aren't allowed to abandon their service obligations at will? I mean, do you really have to be on America's side to fight in its military? Then every Muslim would be turned away! Surely it's discrimination not to allow adherents of America's enemies in positions of power there, and certainly the military should only be used as a social program with no expectation of actual fighting, even though we're in two wars.

 

[arstal]

for added fun, during that timespan which country has been the most 'violent'?

If you go back 40 , China easily.

Cultural Revolution, Suppression of minorities, war with Vietnam.

No real religious base there.

I'm wondering if the Army kept this guy around just to keep him in the service cause they needed the people? In this case, it bit them in tthe behind bigtime. Maybe Methos could back me up on this, but it's a lot easier to get out of the AF, or get the boot from the AF, then it is the Army.

 

[Salazar]

Maybe Methos could back me up on this, but it's a lot easier to get out of the AF, or get the boot from the AF, then it is the Army.

MaxKlinger.jpg

 

[empty vessel]

O jeezes so we are going to go back to the crusades again?

In the last 20-40 years what religion has been the most violent.

Christians. The US is a predominantly Christian nation. Vietnam, Cambodia, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan. Millions upon millions slaughtered. This isn't even remotely a close call.

 

[Speculator]

If you go back 40 , China easily.

Cultural Revolution, Suppression of minorities, war with Vietnam.

No real religious base there.

I'm wondering if the Army kept this guy around just to keep him in the service cause they needed the people? In this case, it bit them in tthe behind bigtime. Maybe Methos could back me up on this, but it's a lot easier to get out of the AF, or get the boot from the AF, then it is the Army.

I think Vessel's got it more correct. Cultural Revolution's death toll were attributed more to famine than a systematic eradication of the local population. Can't argue about the others and China has never operated internationally with its military since it sees itself as a regional rather than global power. Still incomparable to US military operations in South America, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and the Balkans in the last 40 years (though they weren't exactly done without good cause)

 

[Sarye]

Christians. The US is a predominantly Christian nation. Vietnam, Cambodia, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan. Millions upon millions slaughtered. This isn't even remotely a close call.

:lol I find it funny that your post is #666

So just because the US is predominately Christian, it's Christians to blame for all these wars? Riight. The US also have the highest percentage of obese people. Lets blame obesity too.

 

[APF]

Correct; basically Mississippi is the most evil place in the world.

 

[empty vessel]

:lol I find it funny that your post is #666

So just because the US is predominately Christian, it's Christians to blame for all these wars? Riight. The US also have the highest percentage of obese people. Lets blame obesity too.

Well people are blaming the Muslim religion for actions that are predominantly, if not completely, political in nature. Shouldn't the playing field at least be level if we are playing the who-kills-more game?

 

[Woodsy]

It has more to do with poverty, instability within the region, consistent occupations/wars, etc.

Um, Hasan grew up in Virginia. The British bus bombers grew up in the UK.

Say what you want, I'm not seeing any non-Muslim faith (or any other group for that matter) killing people on a regular basis and using their religion to justify it. And yes, the Irish Catholics/Protestants did a bit ago, but was isolated to Ireland and was not some global "war" that some Muslims seem to be engaging in.

 

[besada]

So just because the US is predominately Christian, it's Christians to blame for all these wars? Riight. The US also have the highest percentage of obese people. Lets blame obesity too.

In the case of Iraq/Afghanistan, it was a war led by a Christian President who explicitly claimed that the Christian God had talked to him and told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. How can you not consider that a Christian war?

 

[APF]

Is wanting to exact revenge on those who attack your coreligionists a political act or a religious one?

 

[dave is ok]

Say what you want, I'm not seeing any non-Muslim faith (or any other group for that matter) killing people on a regular basis and using their religion to justify it. And yes, the Irish Catholics/Protestants did a bit ago, but was isolated to Ireland and was not some global "war" that some Muslims seem to be engaging in.

This is a view held by scared conservative Christian Americans and almost no one else.

If you're going to call this a terrorist attack, at least be consistent. The Holocaust Museum shootings were a terrorist act, the assassination of the abortion doctor were a terrorist act.

 

[SmokyDave]

This is a view held by scared conservative Christian Americans and almost no one else.

If you're going to call this a terrorist attack, at least be consistent. The Holocaust Museum shootings were a terrorist act, the assassination of the abortion doctor were a terrorist act.

So what is the 'War on Terror' aimed at if not Islamic Terrorism?

I'm just a little confused by this topic, it seems we are going out of our way to point out that everybody / nobody is a terrorist.

If 4 dirty bombs simultaneously exploded in 4 US or UK cities tomorrow, what type of terror group would you expect to be behind the attack? Or would you make no judgement whatsoever until all the details were revealed?

I know this comes across as encouragement to jump to conclusions but I really don't know how else to phrase it. Are you suggesting Islamic terrorism is no more prevalent in the world today than Christian terrorism? Do Christians have an equivalent term for Jihad?

One man doing something because god told him to is very different to an organised network. Are there examples of groups of Christians carrying out terror attacks on random civilians recently?

 

[phalestine]

This is a view held by scared conservative Christian Americans and almost no one else.

If you're going to call this a terrorist attack, at least be consistent. The Holocaust Museum shootings were a terrorist act, the assassination of the abortion doctor were a terrorist act.

I dont really know much about this story or the Holocaust Museum shooting, but the Assassination of the Abortion doctor was definitely a terrorist attack.

 

[Woodsy]

This is a view held by scared conservative Christian Americans and almost no one else.

If you're going to call this a terrorist attack, at least be consistent. The Holocaust Museum shootings were a terrorist act, the assassination of the abortion doctor were a terrorist act.

I'm not Christian - and yep, those were "terrorist' attacks at the Holocaust and the abortion doctor, even if they don't fit the definition most want to put to "terrorism."

 

[dave is ok]

One man doing something because god told him to is very different to an organised network. Are there examples of groups of Christians carrying out terror attacks on random civilians recently?

The Christian term for jihad is 'crusade' and it hasn't been used for a while.

So the Fort Hood shooter was part of an organized network?

 

[dave is ok]

I'm not Christian - and yep, those were "terrorist' attacks at the Holocaust and the abortion doctor, even if they don't fit the definition most want to put to "terrorism."

The reason they don't fit the definition is because the people who committed these acts weren't named Hassan.

I'd call the Fort Hood shootings a terrorist act (even though I consider targeting civilians to be a big part of a terrorist) but I wouldnt call it the "worst attack on American soil since 9/11" which is exactly how Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham and Glenn Beck referred to it. This was closer to a workplace shooting than a 9/11, the right wing talking heads are just using it to fearmonger.

 

[usernamechange]

I always assumed that the 'War on Terror' was short-hand for 'A War on Islamic Terrorism'. I am yet to see a terrorist group pursued that are not Islamic. Given this, it would seem understandable that muslims in the army may find themselves under slightly more scrutiny than normal.

I don't think for one minute that muslims should not be allowed to join the military but I do think it is an acceptable question to debate. In essence, they are wearing the other teams colours, even if they're not a hooligan (sorry, soccer analogy). How do you clearly define somebodies allegiance?

This is what happens when you fight a war with no clearly defined enemy.

So one Muslim in the army turning into a jihadist is grounds for a debate on not allowing any Muslims into the army?

 

[Chrono]

It's amazing how far up their asses some people have their heads. I was quoting a few posters and planning to reply but it's just not worth it.

Heh, you guys are going to get lots of work in the future - stuff like 9/11 and mohammad cartoons are just the beginning.

 

[ChoklitReign]

Correct; basically Mississippi is the most evil place in the world.

I agree. There are African nations that have a higher quality of life than Mississippi. I wish the Deep South would segregate again as I cannot identify them as Americans anymore.

 

[Pimpwerx]

:lol I find it funny that your post is #666

So just because the US is predominately Christian, it's Christians to blame for all these wars? Riight. The US also have the highest percentage of obese people. Lets blame obesity too.

You miss his point. He's just pointing out that despite the prevailing opinion that the muslim religion fosters this kind of violent behavior, it's actually christians who have been modern history's greatest butchers. PEACE.

 

[Pimpwerx]

The Christian term for jihad is 'crusade' and it hasn't been used for a while.

So the Fort Hood shooter was part of an organized network?

I believe Bush, Rummy or both used the term "crusade" in reference to America's actions in the ME. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have a quote, but I'm almost 100% certain of this. PEACE.

 

[SmokyDave]

So one Muslim in the army turning into a jihadist is grounds for a debate on not allowing any Muslims into the army?

Ok, this is the bit where you get to call me an ignorant racist bigot...

I think that the military should have had this debate long before this shooting. I re-iterate, it seems to me that the war on terror is a war on Islamic terrorism. All Islamic terrorists are muslim. There is an extremely complicated hierarchy of allegiances that is different for every man but it seems that muslims tend to place their religion before all else (as do most religious people, I'd imagine). I am not familiar enough with the concepts of 'ummah' and 'Ummah' to comment properly on this issue. I am not suggesting for one minute there are no good muslim soldiers, I'm sure the majority are great. I am suggesting that a muslim soldier fighting against Islamic terrorism ought to have their motives more thoroughly scrutinised than an atheist / christian / buddhist soldier. This does not seem like an outrageous statement to me.

I'd much rather I hadn't posted in this thread, it is a microcosm of the struggle that civilised nations are going to have to go through over the next god/allah only knows how many years.

The Christian term for jihad is 'crusade' and it hasn't been used for a while.

So the Fort Hood shooter was part of an organized network?

My original question was genuine, although it looks facetious now I re-read it, I had forgotten that the crusades were in fact the origin of the term 'Crusade'. Thank you.

I'm not the one claiming that Christians don't have a term for jihad.

Me neither, see above.

 

[dave is ok]

I believe Bush, Rummy or both used the term "crusade" in reference to America's actions in the ME. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't have a quote, but I'm almost 100% certain of this. PEACE.

Why are you arguing with me? I'm not the one claiming that Christians don't have a term for jihad.

And I found at least one:

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is gonna take awhile. And the American people must be patient. I'm gonna be patient," Bush said.

 

[Woodsy]

So one Muslim in the army turning into a jihadist is grounds for a debate on not allowing any Muslims into the army?

Nope, but Charles Krauthammer nailed it yesterday on Special Report (looking for the video). He basically said that the type of political correctness to be overly sensitive to certain groups (e.g Muslims) in the military has led to a culture where other soldiers did not want to bring to their superiors some things that caused them alarm because they did not want to be known as a bigot and branded for trying to draw attention to someone "just becuase he was a Muslim." It even went so far that the military supposedly knew he had been in contact with a radical imam in Yemen, and yet they did nothing about it. Not only is this lvel of political correctness dangerous, in this case it was deadly.

 

[Chrono]

You miss his point. He's just pointing out that despite the prevailing opinion that the muslim religion fosters this kind of violent behavior, it's actually christians who have been modern history's greatest butchers. PEACE.

On the other hand, the Nazis haven't really got their mass murder on in over 60 years while Christians shout JESUS IS GREAT and butcher people left and right (by accident, millions also were liberated during the senseless butchering).

Christians are worse than Nazis, confirmed.

Spoiler

Many Christians are though, and Christianity itself is inherently worse than Nazism imo.

 

[Kinitari]

There is no debate. Barring Muslims from rights allowed to any other American citizen is crossing a line. You go past that line and you make the situation 10000x times worse. I don't know any other way to look at the situation.

 

[Freshmaker]

The Christian term for jihad is 'crusade' and it hasn't been used for a while.

Bush liked the idea.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Why are you arguing with me? I'm not the one claiming that Christians don't have a term for jihad.

And I found at least one:

Not arguing, just thought I'd point out that Bush and co. definitely used that term "crusade" in reference to their actions. Scary. PEACE.

 

[Chrono]

Last time I checked jesus didn't raise an army and command his followers to fight for him in a jihad/crusade.

I wonder if that was the case with islam, this fact would be repeated in every other post regarding terrorism or any thread related to its medieval nature.

At least then RELIGION OF PEACE might sound slightly less comical.

 

[methos75]

If you go back 40 , China easily.

Cultural Revolution, Suppression of minorities, war with Vietnam.

No real religious base there.

I'm wondering if the Army kept this guy around just to keep him in the service cause they needed the people? In this case, it bit them in tthe behind bigtime. Maybe Methos could back me up on this, but it's a lot easier to get out of the AF, or get the boot from the AF, then it is the Army.

It really depends, I am an SF so you really are stuck in the USAF no matter what, unless you decide to break an law, even then its much harder now than it was 10 years ago to get out because of the wars.

 

[APF]

Crusade has a colloquial meaning. Their use of the term was not purposeful--or at least if you wish to believe it was, it was also quickly corrected.

 

[dave is ok]

Nope, but Charles Krauthammer nailed it yesterday on Special Report (looking for the video). He basically said that the type of political correctness to be overly sensitive to certain groups (e.g Muslims) in the military has led to a culture where other soldiers did not want to bring to their superiors some things that caused them alarm because they did not want to be known as a bigot and branded for trying to draw attention to someone "just becuase he was a Muslim." It even went so far that the military supposedly knew he had been in contact with a radical imam in Yemen, and yet they did nothing about it. Not only is this lvel of political correctness dangerous, in this case it was deadly.

If there is actual proof it was political correctness and not just ineptness - I'd agree. I don't think many soldiers that post on GAF would agree with you that the average military grunt is afraid to speak his mind about his peers. Maybe at the higher levels political correctness factors in - but if the Army were so PC, why would you need DADT?

 

[APF]

if the Army were so PC, why would you need DADT?

This is a silly question; most Muslims are already "out."

 

[whytemyke]

I don't think this has anything to do with a religion as a whole. Blaming Islam for this seems to me like blaming The Program when kids were lying down in traffic after seeing it back in the 90s, or blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine. You can't look at one contributing factor to an overall dementia and then say that one factor is the sole reason for the action.

Marilyn Manson didn't cause Columbine-- two kids who had more problems than you could easily enumerate, and then were given guns, did.

Islam didn't cause this recent tragedy at Ft Hood-- a guy with serious psychological problems that went unchecked, and then was given a gun, did.

I don't see how issuing carte blanche mandates over an entire religion is going to help prevent the next wacko from doing this. You need to eliminate the wackos, because it seems to me that triggers for their rage are easily interchangeable.

 

[mckmas8808]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/09/AR2009110903618.html?hpid=topnews

So he wanted to leave, but the military made him stay. Looks like the military dropped the ball here.

 

[harSon]

Um, Hasan grew up in Virginia. The British bus bombers grew up in the UK.

Say what you want, I'm not seeing any non-Muslim faith (or any other group for that matter) killing people on a regular basis and using their religion to justify it. And yes, the Irish Catholics/Protestants did a bit ago, but was isolated to Ireland and was not some global "war" that some Muslims seem to be engaging in.

I'm talking about the issue as a whole.

 

[empty vessel]

Say what you want, I'm not seeing any non-Muslim faith (or any other group for that matter) killing people on a regular basis and using their religion to justify it.

Christians are doing just that; you are merely culturally deaf, dumb, and blind to it.

Not so fast, Christian soldiers

Jesus killed Mohammed: The crusade for a Christian military