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[Woodsy]

Wait, the "popular story" was that he snapped from the tragic stories he heard from returning soldiers? I missed that. Who was perpetuating that particular speculation?

The first day, that was the story being thrown around on SEVERAL news outlets as everyone was looking an "Anything but his faith caused him to do this" answer to why it happened.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1936407,00.html

Some people that worked with him thought he was mentally unstable. Yet you and Krathammer want to blame the religion and not blame the man. Just admit that you don't like muslims and their religion that they believe.

Honestly, I don't give a shit what anyone believes so long as it isn't causing them kill people.

 

[mckmas8808]

The answer is simple, by the UCMJ that is clearly failure to obey orders and dereliction of Duty on top of an Implied threat, when you Join the Military you are volunteering to be placed under the auspices of the UCMJ so in these cases simply Court martial them and place them in Military Prison where they belong. Its that simple.

Thank you methos75 for being the only conservative guy that I've seen in this thread address the situation (in this post of yours) in a reasonalbe manner.

Being PC shouldn't even matter if a guy isn't fit to do the job. Just because you are Muslim doesn't mean you can be crazy mentally, yet still able to fight in a war that you are not mentally fit to be in.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Yet you and Krathammer want to blame the religion and not blame the man. Just admit that you don't like muslims and their religion that they believe.

For the record, I have no problem admitting I dislike like Muslims and their religion, just as much as I dislike Christians and theirs.

When the ideology is to blame, the ideology should be held responsible.

 

[mckmas8808]

You aren't this lazy or unintelligent.

So it doesn't bother you that his Medical employees thought he could have been mentally psychotic?

 

[mckmas8808]

The first day, that was the story being thrown around on SEVERAL news outlets as everyone was looking an "Anything but his faith caused him to do this" answer to why it happened.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1936407,00.html
.

That WAS NOT the popular story. That's what some people wanted it to be about, because they WANT to blame his religion for this incident. People like you want to blame Islam. You don't care that he could have been mentally screwed up in the head. Somebody that he worked with should have had the guy checked out.

That's where the failure happened. Instead they shipped him out to Fort Hood (from Walter Reed Hospital where he was doing a horrible job at his duties).

 

[scorcho]

The first day, that was the story being thrown around on SEVERAL news outlets as everyone was looking an "Anything but his faith caused him to do this" answer to why it happened.

so you're implying that mental instability and religion are mutually exclusive reasons in this type of attack?

 

[Woodsy]

so you're implying that mental instability and religion are mutually exclusive reasons in this type of attack?

Nope - it's the combination of the two. It just so happens that mentally unstable Muslims have their "faith" (often fueld by radical Imams and other figures like bin Laden) can lead them to carrying out "jihad" and killing massive amount of people. Every religion has their mentally unstable cases - if their Mormon it leads to people like Warren Jeffs, if their Christian it can lead to people like Eric Robert Rudolph bombing abortion clinics, etc.

There are people in every religion who take advantage of their mentally unstable followers, be it through trying to bilk them out of their money or having sex with underage girls, but with Islam those "leaders" take advantage by having the mentally unstable carry out jihad. Yet you never hear even more moderate Muslims say "You know what, jihad is an antiquated idea and something that should be rejected outright by modern Muslims." It seems that even amongst the most "modern" of Muslims who would never go out on a killing spree the attitude is "Yes, these guys are bastardizing the religion and this is completely wrong......but there may be instances where "jihad" is justified."

 

[scorcho]

Yet you never hear even more moderate Muslims say "You know what, jihad is an antiquated idea and something that should be rejected outright by modern Muslims."

http://www.cair.com/PDF/FatwaJuly2005.pdf

 

[Woodsy]

http://www.cair.com/PDF/FatwaJuly2005.pdf

Right - they came out against supporting terrorism, not jihad.

 

[scorcho]

Right - they came out against supporting terrorism, not jihad.

probably because a blanket decoration against religious extremism and terrorism is enough. thank you, though, for reinforcing the point of that cartoon.

 

[mckmas8808]

Nope - it's the combination of the two. It just so happens that mentally unstable Muslims have their "faith" (often fueld by radical Imams and other figures like bin Laden) can lead them to carrying out "jihad" and killing massive amount of people. Every religion has their mentally unstable cases - if their Mormon it leads to people like Warren Jeffs, if their Christian it can lead to people like Eric Robert Rudolph bombing abortion clinics, etc.

There are people in every religion who take advantage of their mentally unstable followers, be it through trying to bilk them out of their money or having sex with underage girls, but with Islam those "leaders" take advantage by having the mentally unstable carry out jihad. Yet you never hear even more moderate Muslims say "You know what, jihad is an antiquated idea and something that should be rejected outright by modern Muslims." It seems that even amongst the most "modern" of Muslims who would never go out on a killing spree the attitude is "Yes, these guys are bastardizing the religion and this is completely wrong......but there may be instances where "jihad" is justified."

Actually I have heard some moderate Muslims say that on cable TV.

probably because a blanket decoration against religious extremism and terrorism is enough. thank you, though, for reinforcing the point of that cartoon.

Damn your setup was the most awesome thing in the last couple pages. :lol
I mean it's like he didn't even see the trap.

 

[Furcas]

It's incredible that there are still people denying that Hasan did what he did specifically because of his belief that Islam is true. It couldn't possibly be any clearer. He even gave a fucking lecture with fifty fucking slides explaining why violent Jihad is a moral imperative for Muslims, for fuck's sake.

Here are the slides: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html

Here's an article explaining the slides: http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/20...tm_campaign=Feed:+Rubinreports+(RubinReports)

 

[Stinkles]

It's incredible that there are still people denying that Hasan did what he did specifically because of his belief that Islam is true.

To be fair to folks at the start of this thread, the press, relatives, friends and the fucking army were all pointing to stress, insanity, etc. There was, at the start of this, zero evidence to suggest Jihad. Yet folks here were immediately jumping on that as the cause. there's two factors at play here, but both sides jumped to conclusions and to be blunt, there was far more evidence in the first days to support "postal." And even now, that's obviously part of what drove him to embrace the bullshit he did. In Pakistan, Afghanistan, it's poverty and ignorance that drive people to it. Here, it's other types of resentment and anger.

 

[Furcas]

To be fair to folks at the start of this thread, the press, relatives, friends and the fucking army were all pointing to stress, insanity, etc. There was, at the start of this, zero evidence to suggest Jihad. Yet folks here were immediately jumping on that as the cause.

We're talking about a Muslim who went on a killing rampage against American soldiers. Even before we had any kind of evidence, Jihad was the most likely cause by miles.

there's two factors at play here, but both sides jumped to conclusions and to be blunt, there was far more evidence in the first days to support "postal." And even now, that's obviously part of what drove him to embrace the bullshit he did. In Pakistan, Afghanistan, it's poverty and ignorance that drive people to it. Here, it's other types of resentment and anger.

Hasan is/was no more 'insane' or 'postal' than any other religious fundamentalist. I have no idea why you still refuse to acknowledge a very simple truth.

Remember those Christian parents who let their daughter die because they believed in the power of prayer? Do you think they did what they did because of poverty, ignorance, stress, or anger? I doubt the thought even crossed your mind. Obviously, they let their daughter die because of their sincerely-held belief that God would heal her if they prayed hard enough. They've said so themselves.

Well, Hasan killed those soldiers because of his sincerely-held belief that this is what Allah wanted him to do. He's said so himself.

It's that simple.

 

[skrew]

As far as Hasan being forced to fight a war he didn't believe in, he was a commissioned officer, all he had to do was fucking resign.

 

[Stinkles]

We're talking about a Muslim who went on a killing rampage against American soldiers. Even before we had any kind of evidence, Jihad was the most likely cause by miles.



Hasan is/was no more 'insane' or 'postal' than any other religious fundamentalist. I have no idea why you still refuse to acknowledge a very simple truth.

Remember those Christian parents who let their daughter die because they believed in the power of prayer? Do you think they did what they did because of poverty, ignorance, stress, or anger? I doubt the thought even crossed your mind. Obviously, they let their daughter die because of their sincerely-held belief that God would heal her if they prayed hard enough. They've said so themselves.

Well, Hasan killed those soldiers because of his sincerely-held belief that this is what Allah wanted him to do. He's said so himself.

It's that simple.

You're pretty set on the world being really simple, huh?

 

[Furcas]

You're pretty set on the world being really simple, huh?

Looking for complex explanations when a simple one fits all the facts is just as bad as denying a more complex explanation when a simple one doesn't fit the facts.

 

[Atrus]

The very differentiation between Muslim and Non-Muslim life is a symptom caused by the ideology. The man, like many of similar beliefs, is on some level disturbed that non-group members are killing group-members.

Even if you ignored this situation, you would still have to admit that the ideology does stratify human beings on the basis of belief. Adherents on top, the good old people of the book several steps below, and everyone else at the bottom of the dung heap.

By stratifying the rest of the population between group-members and non-group members, the group members are given more worth. Their lives are more valuable because their ideology is supreme. This is why he, and those like him, have absolutely no problem with non-group members killing non-group members but get incensed when it is their own.

At the very extreme end, they start to prey on their own group members in order to ensure ideological purity.

Where people are going wrong is in not pinpointing what caused him to go on a killing spree. Religion is a factor that influenced him yes, but what turned him from a nut who had shitty beliefs but didn't kill people to a nut with shitty beliefs that did. There are a lot more Muslims who hold similar opinions in silent then there are those who actually do something about it.

So what is the trigger? What happened in his brain to cause it? Citing religion by itself is just too broad and it very likely ignores a whole grouping of factors that led him to go down the route of a jihadi. The answer lies at the end of a whole string of 'Whys'.

One important aspect that's usualy missing is socialization (and yes, religion can impact that as well). Improperly socialized individuals are likely to be more at risk of performing anti-social acts. We've seen in wild humans raised by animals that human socialization is a learned attribute, one that we may be biologically preferenced to, but it still requires learning. Without that we're almost mindless animals.

Stating that this act has nothing to do with religion is ludicrous but ending the search there is just silly. Your brain makes decisions, it's there that the answers lie. We can then backtrack it to the particular factors in the religion or social environment and then try to eliminate those triggers.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Pretty sure the guy even joined the army to kill US soldiers one day.

 

[Furcas]

The Hitch tells it like it is:

http://www.slate.com/id/2235760/pagenum/all/#p2

 

[Askia47]

I don't know if anyone knows this, but was Hasan born in America?

 

[SmokyDave]

I don't know if anyone knows this, but was Hasan born in America?

He was indeed. His parents were Palestinian immigrants I believe.