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[Burger]

Modifying your console doesn't mean you can only play pirated games so it is not admitting to piracy.

Of course you can mod your console and only play legit games on it. Although it would be a pointless endeavor as piracy is the only function such a mod enables.

However, Microsoft have never said this was about piracy, or about prosecuting pirates, or naming and shaming pirates. It's about connecting modified equipment to their service, and violating software license agreements.

 

[Treo360]

I hope Datel wins the anti-trust lawsuit it just brought about.

 

[Burger]

If you're talking about MS modifying the capabilities of your console that you consider to be "innate" to the unit and not connected with xbox live, you would only have a point if you hadn't already agreed to the xbox live TOS and connected to xbox live (which is impossible since bans only come from live). Once you agree and connect to live, the 360 becomes an instrument for connecting to live, and you're agreeing in the ToS that the software may be modified in any way MS sees fit.

And that agreement is clearly presented to you when you sign up for a Xbox Live account.

 

[Megadragon15]

I hope Datel wins the anti-trust lawsuit it just brought about.

So I take it this is Datel's workaround for their devices not working: a lawsuit.

 

[Terrifyer]

I hope Datel wins the anti-trust lawsuit it just brought about.

Same, it would be awesome if that leads to 3rd party HDD's being officially supported (if they win of course).

 

[Vamphuntr]

you can mod your 360 and still play legit games on it, that you're not limited to pirated games.

Yeah but what's the point? I'm no expert on modding but what can you do on a modded 360 besides playing illegal/burned copies? I'm aware of homebrew and CFW on psp and wii but never heard anything about 360. Sure you can use your own personal backups from game you bought, but with the install feature it seems rather useless.

 

[Treo360]

So I take it this is Datel's workaround for their devices not working: a lawsuit.

Is there a problem with that? I think this is a good thing, I hope that they win.

 

[Megadragon15]

I just find it amusing that Datel said they would have "fixed" devices out later. :lol

 

[Vamphuntr]

So I take it this is Datel's workaround for their devices not working: a lawsuit.

It's good that they are trying to fight Microsoft's monopoly so we can get affordable drives. But at the same time microsoft has the rights to prevent thrid party accessories from being created for the 360 (unless a prior license/agreement with them was revoked recently). The 360 is a MS's product it's not like a PC. They can pretty much srew us with their ridiculous priced HDD if they want

 

[Burger]

It's good that they are trying to fight Microsoft's monopoly so we can get affordable drives. But at the same time microsoft has the rights to prevent thrid party accessories from being created for the 360 (unless a prior license/agreement with them was revoked recently). The 360 is a MS's product it's not like a PC. They can pretty much srew us with their ridiculous priced HDD if they want

Agreed, it is good that they are trying to foster competition...

...However. Memory cards with SD slots need to be banned. The gamesave system needs to remain closed in order to prevent cheating.

Nobody needs a memory card with an SD slot. The uses of which are plainly obvious.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I was correcting your misconception that game installs are not trusted content just because they aren't portable.

you're completely missing the point, hopefully on purpose, since you realize the point i'm getting at. all code running and all save data created is signed and trusted content. if they really wanted to disable trusted content, they would delete ALL the keys, and the dash wouldn't even boot. disabling HDD installs and claiming it's because of trusted content is them bullshitting. gamesaves were portable before a console was banned, and after aren't. hdd installs were never portable, so how are they a concern? if the concern is not allowing local trusted content, why not disable ALL local trusted content? if the concern is not allowing portable trusted content, HDD installs were never portable in the first place. their excuse is devoid of logic.

What are you talking about ?

It quite clearly says that HDD installs are 'trusted content'. Meaning, the data is copied to your HDD, presumably in some sort of ISO format, then wrapped up in your Xbox's private key, with Microsoft's DRM key.

When the console was banned, a little e-fuse in the CPU was blown, and the Xbox lost it's ability to create trusted content. Now, because the game installs are trusted content, you loose the ability to create AND READ them. You can still create untrusted game saves, because this is a function necessary for the product to function as advertised. Game installs are not necessary for the Xbox to function, only reading from the drive.

The quote I posted SPECIFICALLY mentions the inability to 'recognize previously created game files using the install to hard drive functionality'.

This was obviously done to piss off stupid idiot pirates. Good job.

no efuses are blown when a console is banned dude. also, the saves *are* trusted. and signed. locally. just like HDD installs used to be. signed. to work locally.

 

[linkboy]

Agreed, it is good that they are trying to foster competition...

...However. Memory cards with SD slots need to be banned. The gamesave system needs to remain closed in order to prevent cheating.

Nobody needs a memory card with an SD slot. The uses of which are plainly obvious.

Blocking those cards aren't going to close the game save system, that's door's already been opened and it ain't getting closed anytime soon, since those cards aren't the only way to access save games.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

For fuck's sake you have drunk the MS koolaid haven't you? I don't mind banning modded consoles off of live, but I also think MS went too far by crippling functionality that had nothing to do with Xbox Live. That little paragraph about "trusted content" is made-up bullshit.

Why you think anyone that pays for software would have any sympathy for pirates is just baffling.

MS lets them off easy IMO. They don't get prosecuted, they don't get their 360 taken away - they just can't connect to LIVE. They can play a lifetime of ill-gotten warez, as long as they stay off the service.

Fuck 'em.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Of course you can mod your console and only play legit games on it. Although it would be a pointless endeavor as piracy is the only function such a mod enables.

However, Microsoft have never said this was about piracy, or about prosecuting pirates, or naming and shaming pirates. It's about connecting modified equipment to their service, and violating software license agreements.

you can do other things than piracy, you just can't run your own code. the only signed/checked data is usually the executables, other game files are unchecked.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Agreed, it is good that they are trying to foster competition...

...However. Memory cards with SD slots need to be banned. The gamesave system needs to remain closed in order to prevent cheating.

Nobody needs a memory card with an SD slot. The uses of which are plainly obvious.

it was never a closed system. these datel cards with microsd slots were released earlier this year. people have been cheating and gamerscore boosting without them since 2005. all you need is an Xbox 360 with a HDD, a PC with a SATA slot and a Torx8/10 to take the shell apart, and you can do it for free, or you could buy a $15 hdd connectivity kit, or a $15 memory unit adapter, or a $40 XPORT/XSATA, or you can even make a makeshift MS memory unit adapter yourself with $5 in parts from radio shack. the cat was never in the bag, and this doesn't put the cat back in.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Agreed, it is good that they are trying to foster competition...

...However. Memory cards with SD slots need to be banned. The gamesave system needs to remain closed in order to prevent cheating.

Nobody needs a memory card with an SD slot. The uses of which are plainly obvious.

that's nice and all, except the people that want to exploit the gamesave system have been doing so from the beginning. MS has made more than a few moves to stop gamesaves and hex editing, but it still happens. You don't need any Datel products. There's even a profile editor that allows you to unlock any achievement for any game you heart desires.

It's just a scapegoat to keep MS's iron grip on the cash cow 3rd party accessory market for their console. They get to charge whatever the hell they want for proprietary stuff, regardless of what people think.

 

[Burger]

no efuses are blown when a console is banned dude. also, the saves *are* trusted. and signed. locally. just like HDD installs used to be. signed. to work locally.

Why would a eFuse not be blown ? Can you explain how you know that ?

The fuses (and there are over 700 of them) hide data like the CPU Key, this key is a major requirement to create signed data (or 'trusted content'). When you are banned 2 things happen, you can no longer sign data and you can no longer downgrade your kernel unless you know your CPU Key prior to being banned. Blowing the CPU Key fuse, or parts of it (like the private per box key) would be a great way to do all of the above.

you can do other things than piracy, you just can't run your own code.

No you can't. A DVD drive flash modification (iExtreme etc) is soley for the singular purpose of stealing games. It serves NO other purpose.

 

[grap3fruitman]

Why would a eFuse not be blown ? Can you explain how you know that ?

MS only uses the efuses to prevent you from backing down to an older kernel as far as I'm aware.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Why would a eFuse not be blown ? Can you explain how you know that ?

The fuses (and there are over 700 of them) hide data like the CPU Key, this key is a major requirement to create signed data (or 'trusted content'). When you are banned 2 things happen, you can no longer sign data and you can no longer downgrade your kernel unless you know your CPU Key prior to being banned. Blowing the CPU Key fuse, or parts of it (like the private per box key) would be a great way to do all of the above.

because people have figured out how to restore HDD installs and gamesave portability, and it's jut done by modifying some data on the 360's NAND FlashROM, basically erasing the 'bad' version of the file that causes the blocking so the last known good version is used.

No you can't. A DVD drive flash modification (iExtreme etc) is soley for the singular purpose of stealing games. It serves NO other purpose.

there are several games where data on the disk can be modified to alter game elements.

 

[poppabk]

disabling HDD installs and claiming it's because of trusted content is them bullshitting. gamesaves were portable before a console was banned, and after aren't. hdd installs were never portable, so how are they a concern? if the concern is not allowing local trusted content, why not disable ALL local trusted content? if the concern is not allowing portable trusted content, HDD installs were never portable in the first place. their excuse is devoid of logic.

I am sure getting 3rd parties on board for allowing HDD installs was a major effort for MS, and a lot of that effort was probably to assure them that it wouldn't open up an avenue for piracy. I would argue that MS probably disabled the HDD installs to assuage the fears of content providers, not as a punitive measure.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

It's good that they are trying to fight Microsoft's monopoly so we can get affordable drives. But at the same time microsoft has the rights to prevent thrid party accessories from being created for the 360 (unless a prior license/agreement with them was revoked recently). The 360 is a MS's product it's not like a PC. They can pretty much srew us with their ridiculous priced HDD if they want

Car manufacturers tried to do the same thing and lost. Also, see printer manufacturers and ink cartridges. There is plenty of legal precedent to allow 3rd parties to make aftermarket goods for someone else's stuff.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Why you think anyone that pays for software would have any sympathy for pirates is just baffling.

MS lets them off easy IMO. They don't get prosecuted, they don't get their 360 taken away - they just can't connect to LIVE. They can play a lifetime of ill-gotten warez, as long as they stay off the service.

Fuck 'em.

Because I can see both sides of the argument. Because two wrongs don't make a right. Is that too old-fashioned? I'm interested in pirates buying games. I'm also interested in corporations enforcing their rights within the limits of the law. I happen to think MS went outside the law to accomplish this. But, hey, you don't give a shit and live in this odd world where pirates go to jail for copyright infringement (LOL) and deserve to have their firstborn murdered - cause "fuck 'em" right?

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I am sure getting 3rd parties on board for allowing HDD installs was a major effort for MS, and a lot of that effort was probably to assure them that it wouldn't open up an avenue for piracy. I would argue that MS probably disabled the HDD installs to assuage the fears of content providers, not as a punitive measure.

Pirates are still playing pirated games with or without HDD installs. That should tell you whether or not this was merely punitive on Microsoft's part.

 

[poppabk]

Pirates are still playing pirated games with or without HDD installs. That should tell you whether or not this was merely punitive on Microsoft's part.

And people are still pirating HD movies, but I don't get HD content through netflix on my PC because someone was able to make a copy of the streams, and I couldn't (can't?) watch SD content over S-video because it is an untrusted connection, even though DVD protection has been cracked for ever. Content providers are not exactly rational, and could easily start asking for their games to not be installable at all if they perceive it as a threat.

 

[TheSeks]

Pirates are still playing pirated games with or without HDD installs. That should tell you whether or not this was merely punitive on Microsoft's part.

So, basically what you're saying is: MS should allow pirates to modify their hard-drives and then have the ability to install games instead of having to flash the DVD firmware and possible having the DVD drive die on them down the line?

So, basically: Let them be like PC gamers that pirate. MMM'kay. I think that ain't ever going to happen and you and the others that are "ZOMG THEY'RE NEUTERING FEATURES FROM NXE ON MY 360!" are missing the point. It's MS' box. They can tell you what you/you can not do with it. Just like Sony can, just like Nintendo can. MS' banning you from using their HDD install feature is closing the possible gate that HDD Loader on PS2 opened on the PS2.

 

[Diablohead]

Pirates are lucky to have their 360's still work, it sounds to me that there are a few butthurt people in this thread.

 

[poppabk]

Pirates are lucky to have their 360's still work, it sounds to me that there are a few butthurt people in this thread.

Well there are genuine reasons to be concerned, if MS can take installs away from pirates, whats to stop them from making installs a gold feature? Its a fine line you have to walk between defending the rights of jerks and defending the rights of corporations.

 

[rjcc]

Well there are genuine reasons to be concerned, if MS can take installs away from pirates, whats to stop them from making installs a gold feature? Its a fine line you have to walk between defending the rights of jerks and defending the rights of corporations.

are you on fucking crack?

 

[pr0cs]

Well there are genuine reasons to be concerned, if MS can take installs away from pirates, whats to stop them from making installs a gold feature? Its a fine line you have to walk between defending the rights of jerks and defending the rights of corporations.

you really are reaching here aren't you?
You've gone from MS not allowing people to use hacked 360s on Live as some relation to only allowing gold members to install games. Sorry but I don't see any connection.

They are trying to protect their service while maximizing profit. Sounds like any other company out there really.

 

[jaypah]

Well there are genuine reasons to be concerned, if MS can take installs away from pirates, whats to stop them from making installs a gold feature? Its a fine line you have to walk between defending the rights of jerks and defending the rights of corporations.

and then they might buy the sun and charge for sunlight.....then what? then what do we do in this crazy hypothetical land of assumptions and fantastical what-if scenarios?

 

[poppabk]

you really are reaching here aren't you?
You've gone from MS not allowing people to use hacked 360s on Live as some relation to only allowing gold members to install games. Sorry but I don't see any connection.

They are trying to protect their service while maximizing profit. Sounds like any other company out there really.

I am talking hypotheticals, I don't think that MS have done anything wrong by disabling HDD installs for pirates, and I don't think that they are going to transfer HDD installs to Gold service. But the ability to disable a function (not a service) for a specific group of users does open up the question of what rights do we have to the software installed on our devices. When Nintendo disabled mp3 access through a firmware update, did we have any rights to keep access to the software that was installed on our console when we bought it, or are they allowed to force us to give up access to the software if we wish to keep playing new games?
This is dependent on whether HDD installs are independent from Live service. If I bought a 360 arcade today, would I need internet access to install a game to the HDD, or is that feature now available out of the box?

 

[Psychotext]

Whilst I think that MS straight out banning the memory cards is a bit of a shit thing to do (to customers)... what exactly did Datel think was going to happen when they reverse engineered the hardware to develop a product they didn't have a licence to make?

 

[Dunlop]

I am sure getting 3rd parties on board for allowing HDD installs was a major effort for MS, and a lot of that effort was probably to assure them that it wouldn't open up an avenue for piracy. I would argue that MS probably disabled the HDD installs to assuage the fears of content providers, not as a punitive measure.

I'm lost on your reasoning, but unless the install to HDD feature is advertised on the box or their website as being available to everyone it would be within their rights to make it Gold members only. Can't see why they would ever do this.

It was a feature we did not have 2 years ago.

 

[The Faceless Master]

you really are reaching here aren't you?
You've gone from MS not allowing people to use hacked 360s on Live as some relation to only allowing gold members to install games. Sorry but I don't see any connection.

They are trying to protect their service while maximizing profit. Sounds like any other company out there really.

i see the connection already

 

[The Faceless Master]

I am talking hypotheticals, I don't think that MS have done anything wrong by disabling HDD installs for pirates, and I don't think that they are going to transfer HDD installs to Gold service. But the ability to disable a function (not a service) for a specific group of users does open up the question of what rights do we have to the software installed on our devices. When Nintendo disabled mp3 access through a firmware update, did we have any rights to keep access to the software that was installed on our console when we bought it, or are they allowed to force us to give up access to the software if we wish to keep playing new games?
This is dependent on whether HDD installs are independent from Live service. If I bought a 360 arcade today, would I need internet access to install a game to the HDD, or is that feature now available out of the box?

iirc, nintendo allows wiis with the photo channel that has mp3 playback to go back to the old photo channel. it's the ones that never came with it that can't do it.

 

[Jocchan]

iirc, nintendo allows wiis with the photo channel that has mp3 playback to go back to the old photo channel. it's the ones that never came with it that can't do it.

Yep. If you delete the new Photo Channel, or move it to a SD card, you get back the old one with mp3 playback.

 

[Vamphuntr]

I am talking hypotheticals, I don't think that MS have done anything wrong by disabling HDD installs for pirates, and I don't think that they are going to transfer HDD installs to Gold service. But the ability to disable a function (not a service) for a specific group of users does open up the question of what rights do we have to the software installed on our devices. When Nintendo disabled mp3 access through a firmware update, did we have any rights to keep access to the software that was installed on our console when we bought it, or are they allowed to force us to give up access to the software if we wish to keep playing new games?
This is dependent on whether HDD installs are independent from Live service. If I bought a 360 arcade today, would I need internet access to install a game to the HDD, or is that feature now available out of the box?

I think the main problem is that the HDD install wasn't there from the start. When you installed the NXE firmware you agreed to MS/Live's TOS. It's probably mentionned in it that you can loose privileges if you use hacking devices and such. Since the NXE was part of Live I guess they consider it a features of Live. Like someone said earlier it's also MS' way of preventing a similar fiasco to that of the PS2 HD Loader. Also MS is not trying to ban 3rd parties from their hardware. Otherwise there would be no madcatz pads and what not. What they prohibit is the use of 3rd parties memory units to prevent save hacking. In Datel case it's also good to note that they produce unlicenced accessories. That would be like letting anyone make 360 games without purchasing a licence. Remember the bleemcast (the PS emulator on the DC) and how it ended?

 

[pr0cs]

i see the connection already

if you take the two statements out of context I'm not surprised you would.

 

[border]

I think the main problem is that the HDD install wasn't there from the start.

It was if you purchased a new system in the past year.

 

[Speevy]

Whilst I think that MS straight out banning the memory cards is a bit of a shit thing to do (to customers)... what exactly did Datel think was going to happen when they reverse engineered the hardware to develop a product they didn't have a licence to make?

The same thing that always happens to Datel when they reverse-engineer a product: Nothing.

 

[Vamphuntr]

It was if you purchased a new system in the past year.

Yes but so does the new TOS when you boot it up for the first time.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

The same thing that always happens to Datel when they reverse-engineer a product: Nothing.

Not true:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21847

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

So, basically what you're saying is: MS should allow pirates to modify their hard-drives and then have the ability to install games instead of having to flash the DVD firmware and possible having the DVD drive die on them down the line?

So, basically: Let them be like PC gamers that pirate. MMM'kay. I think that ain't ever going to happen and you and the others that are "ZOMG THEY'RE NEUTERING FEATURES FROM NXE ON MY 360!" are missing the point. It's MS' box. They can tell you what you/you can not do with it. Just like Sony can, just like Nintendo can. MS' banning you from using their HDD install feature is closing the possible gate that HDD Loader on PS2 opened on the PS2.

So tell me then, if it's MS' box, why don't they send pirates a coffin asking them to return their modded Xbox 360 since it's "MS' box". Or, better yet, why not just brick them completely? Please, do tell. I'm on pins and needles here.

Here's a hint why not:

Spoiler

You're wrong.

BTW, not sure why you said "you" in your post. It hasn't happened to me.

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

I am talking hypotheticals, I don't think that MS have done anything wrong by disabling HDD installs for pirates, and I don't think that they are going to transfer HDD installs to Gold service. But the ability to disable a function (not a service) for a specific group of users does open up the question of what rights do we have to the software installed on our devices. When Nintendo disabled mp3 access through a firmware update, did we have any rights to keep access to the software that was installed on our console when we bought it, or are they allowed to force us to give up access to the software if we wish to keep playing new games?
This is dependent on whether HDD installs are independent from Live service. If I bought a 360 arcade today, would I need internet access to install a game to the HDD, or is that feature now available out of the box?

If it has the NXE on it, you won't ever need to hook it up to the Internet to use this feature.

 

[poppabk]

If it has the NXE on it, you won't ever need to hook it up to the Internet to use this feature.

And so given that - if MS did decide to remove this feature - would users have the right to sue, and would they be successful?
Or more succinctly - when we buy a console, what are we actually buying?

 

[Terrifyer]

So tell me then, if it's MS' box, why don't they send pirates a coffin asking them to return their modded Xbox 360 since it's "MS' box". Or, better yet, why not just brick them completely? Please, do tell. I'm on pins and needles here.

Here's a hint why not:

Spoiler

You're wrong.

BTW, not sure why you said "you" in your post. It hasn't happened to me.

You're missing his point. Obviously, the hardware is yours. It's a question of software features, and aside from the very basic function of playing legit games inserted into the optical drive offline as advertised on the box, MS can modify any function of the console...you agree to this when you sign up for live.

 

[linkboy]

I think the main problem is that the HDD install wasn't there from the start. When you installed the NXE firmware you agreed to MS/Live's TOS. It's probably mentionned in it that you can loose privileges if you use hacking devices and such. Since the NXE was part of Live I guess they consider it a features of Live. Like someone said earlier it's also MS' way of preventing a similar fiasco to that of the PS2 HD Loader. Also MS is not trying to ban 3rd parties from their hardware. Otherwise there would be no madcatz pads and what not. What they prohibit is the use of 3rd parties memory units to prevent save hacking. In Datel case it's also good to note that they produce unlicenced accessories. That would be like letting anyone make 360 games without purchasing a licence. Remember the bleemcast (the PS emulator on the DC) and how it ended?

People were hacking save games before those cards came out and they'll be hacking save games after this update. Why, you don't need those cards to hack your data.

The Xport, Transfer kit and MS transfer cable can (and are) being used to hack those saves.

The blocking of these cards did nothing to prevent people from hacking saves, but it did help MS's pocket book.

As for Bleem, it only ended because Sony sued the hell out of them and ran them out of money.

 

[Like the hat?]

Well they can't really block access to hardware that doesn't specifically plug into the 360 console.

 

[The Faceless Master]

so remember those new unhackable drives? the ones that anyone who decided to get a replacement or swap would get? they're hacked now too. i wonder how many people will once again mod their console... will the lesson ever be learned?

 

[Spasm]

PSA: Having an account permanently banned does not cancel the account. You will be billed for your banned account at the next billing cycle if you do not call them and explicitly cancel the account.

A friend of mine who's account was perma-banned just got off the phone with support. They informed him that they are unable to cancel any accounts without the user's consent, including ones that they themselves have 'cancelled' due to TOS violations. Furthermore, since he called AFTER the date of the re-up (after noticing it on his bill), they've informed him there will be no refund. At the time of the ban, he did check Xbox.com, but was denied any access to the account management tools, due to the ban. So he assumed, as I imagine many would, that the account was as good as cancelled.


Yes, he was a jackass and deserved the ban, and shouldn't have assumed, but auto-renewing banned accounts is pretty underhanded. I've been a pretty strong proponent of bans in this thread, but this is completely indefensible.