Not just antidepressants, the pharma industry as a whole could do with a little cleaning up. I guess a billion dollor industry has its weaknesses. Ben Goldacre's bad science and bad pharma books are worth a read.
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Should acupuncturists, homeopaths or faith healers be imprisoned?
- Thread starter Opiate
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Not just antidepressants, the pharma industry as a whole could do with a little cleaning up. I guess a billion dollor industry has its weaknesses. Ben Goldacre's bad science and bad pharma books are worth a read.
shanshan310
Member
I don't see why they should, but I don't think I'd consider them all the the same. Praying off someone's grief is wrong (faith healers are pretty scummy), but most people who choose "alternative medicine" for stress relief and stuff know it's not guaranteed to work. But it does work for some people, even if it's just a placebo effect.
Sure, put them in jail, right after scientists who inadvertedly managed to demonize fat in the general populace, pushing them towards salt and sugar! Yaay!
They can be followed by advertisers falsifying the image of the everyday man for their own needs, presenting products that look nothing like what you can buy, telling you lies and then apologizing for it at the end of the ad, in 4px text hidden at the last frame, or not even doing that.
They can be followed by advertisers falsifying the image of the everyday man for their own needs, presenting products that look nothing like what you can buy, telling you lies and then apologizing for it at the end of the ad, in 4px text hidden at the last frame, or not even doing that.
Personally for me acupuncture, has worked wonders for me and I can now breathe out of left side of my nose which has been amazing. How much of that is placebo, no idea but I don't give a shit either. FWIW I was very skeptical of this prior to starting and had no idea it would work for me.
Like all things in life, I don't think people should knock things until they've tried them.
Like all things in life, I don't think people should knock things until they've tried them.
shanshan310
Member
Yeah, I don't think it's for me personally but I know lots of people who have been helped by it.
I don't understand that statement. If something works for a lot of people you personally know, what makes you think it wouldn't work for you? What's the worst that happens? you waste a few bucks? I can understand that could be a big issue if you're hard up for money though. For me, private health insurance covers some part of the treatment as well.
I haven't really read through this thread, but it would be good to see how many people thought their acupuncture treatment was a waste of time vs those who got something out of it.
What about dating convicted serial rapist psychopaths?
Putting bad advice apart, us Brits have to deal with the NHS approved acupuncture. That's the government. And NICE who regulate medicine in this country. I suppose they prefer the nerve stimulation rationale rather than energy flows in the body. And it is for only a few things such as lower back pain.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/acupuncture/Pages/Introduction.aspx
shanshan310
Member
I don't like needles is all. I wouldn't be able to relax enough with them in my skin for anything to work
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
I am/was(?) a huge skeptic about acupuncture.
My partner had chronic back pain that numerous doctors, specialists, and physios couldn't treat effectively. My partner decided to give acupuncture a go, and within the first treatment she said her pain had lessened significantly.
A few more subsequent treatments resulted in her the pain being more or less gone and she's back to cycling and gardening again. The treatment turned her into a believer too.
Her acupuncturist treats quite a few athletes from the Australian Institute of Sport here in Canberra. In fact our health insurance covers acupuncture treatments
Fraud is a crime, so if they make an claims that these are actually treatments for anything, then yet.
If they want to sell their services to people who enjoy getting poked with needles in their spare time, that's fine with me, the minute they advertise therapeutic benefits without any proof, it becomes fraud and they need to go to jail.
If they want to sell their services to people who enjoy getting poked with needles in their spare time, that's fine with me, the minute they advertise therapeutic benefits without any proof, it becomes fraud and they need to go to jail.
agree with this. anything else just reeks of ignorance.
The acupuncturist has cured my liver and heart. I'd rather imprison people who try to imprison him.
Sutton Dagger
Member
It's amazing to me that the process of skepticism is not widely used on GAF. Some of the reasoning and arguments used for the efficacy of acupunture/homeopathy etc is clearly fallacious.
The bottom line is, acupunture is not effective for the vast majority of health issues that practitioners claim. The small effect on pain relief can generally be attributed to the placebo effect, as acupunture and 'sham' acupunture give the same results. The other 'alternative medicines' aren't even worth talking about given that they have been proven to be ineffective.
The time to believe something is when evidence has been presented showing the efficacy of the treatment, not before. As such, none of these alternative medicines should be tax payer funded. Come on GAF, use some process of skepticism.
The bottom line is, acupunture is not effective for the vast majority of health issues that practitioners claim. The small effect on pain relief can generally be attributed to the placebo effect, as acupunture and 'sham' acupunture give the same results. The other 'alternative medicines' aren't even worth talking about given that they have been proven to be ineffective.
The time to believe something is when evidence has been presented showing the efficacy of the treatment, not before. As such, none of these alternative medicines should be tax payer funded. Come on GAF, use some process of skepticism.
cloud_sleep
Member
A homeopath would only need to serve for a millisecond in prison before becoming rehabilitated.
Hey man... placebo is an effective treatment when there are no other treatment options available!
Amazing, lol.
NuclearSpy
Member
This thread is really fascinating because theres all kinds of views by gaffers on these medical alternatives. Will sub to this thread and keep reading.
CyclopsRock
Member
If those receiving the 'treatment' can be absolved of their responsibility to research it, why can that not be extended to those practising it? Plus, given the mysticism surrounding certain alternative medicine, it'd open up a bit of a can of worms in terms of religion.
Sutton Dagger
Member
I never said we shouldn't be taking the placebo into account in our treatments. There are different ways of harnessing the placebo effect with some strange caveats (blue pills are more effective than other colour pills for certain health issues). A 'treatment' such as acupunture is also not without dangers, even though relatively small. We should be using treatments, even if they are only using placebo that don't have that danger (and don't cost a fortune).
Does it cost a fortune? I was under the impression that it was a fairly affordable practice.
Even if you account for its healthful efficacy in dollar terms... there are western medical alternatives that have a significantly lesser ROI.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Typically in the $60-$120 range per session, with regular sessions expected (once a fortnight) whilst the patient experiences the ailment. I guess it's a case by case basis if you think it's expensive, though I would say its expensive for a treatment that only uses the placebo effect.
The point is the evidence shows that it isn't any more effective than placebo, as such we could be using less expensive (and potentially less dangerous) treatments.
Night Hunter
Banned
Where I live, if a doctor prescribes it you can get healthcare-paid acupuncture, so no. I can kinda understand faith healers and homeopaths, but in what brainwashed country do you live to still think acupuncture isn't a real thing?
Sutton Dagger
Member
Who do you think is paying for it...hint, it's not free.
Lol at your last statement, it's both a logical fallacy and not based on evidence, I wouldn't be calling the people who adhere to evidence 'brainwashed'.
shanshan310
Member
Well according to the quote above it might not be effective at healing a lot of things but it was proven to be an effective way to relieve pain.
ShinNL
Member
Let me get this straight. How is it allowed on these forums to tell people they are wrong because of whatever this mystical proof exists that invalidates their argument,
but when someone provides counter proof
it is suddenly not reliable proof?
Please point me to these best of the best studies that conclusively invalidates all anecdotes and other studies that shows it works.
Too convenient way of posting.
I like how you tried to invalidate an argument about acupuncture here by posting a link to prayer by the way. Very subtle. Very funny that you manage to link these two with a bunch of gluing words to give your post some substance.
Your second link to 'proof' in this thread is to a wiki.
And have you read the links you posted in this post? At all? Not even trying to discuss on how legit they are, but how are they even remotely answering the request of this post? (The one you were replying to)
And how is it okay to lie?
I really don't like inconsistency. Even though it's a thread you created, a discussion will not work if you keep twisting evidence, words and facts to your favor. You still have to stick to the rules of a discussion. By not doing so, you are either ignorant of what you are doing or you are disrespecting others on purpose. I hope it's the former.
A final reminder of what it all boils down to. It's you who posted "Further, saying "there is no proof" is too soft; saying it's proven not to work is much more forceful and also more accurate." It's you who should provide them. Don't go posting a ton of links that doesn't actually show this super conclusive proof you're referring to and let other try to search them (just to confuse people with a bunch of gibberish). There's no backing out. People don't have to prove that acupuncture works. You have to prove that acupuncture doesn't work, by your own rules:
Consistency. Treasure it.
Your way of posting reminds me of the manga Bleach. Keep opening new plots, raising more questions, never giving a conclusion. By adding more and more stuff, you think you have a great story, but readers think it's full of flaws.
Not the first time I had to resort to arguing about how you argue to get things straight.
but when someone provides counter proof
it is suddenly not reliable proof?
Please point me to these best of the best studies that conclusively invalidates all anecdotes and other studies that shows it works.
Too convenient way of posting.
I like how you tried to invalidate an argument about acupuncture here by posting a link to prayer by the way. Very subtle. Very funny that you manage to link these two with a bunch of gluing words to give your post some substance.
Your second link to 'proof' in this thread is to a wiki.
And have you read the links you posted in this post? At all? Not even trying to discuss on how legit they are, but how are they even remotely answering the request of this post? (The one you were replying to)
And how is it okay to lie?
vs
lol wat?
I really don't like inconsistency. Even though it's a thread you created, a discussion will not work if you keep twisting evidence, words and facts to your favor. You still have to stick to the rules of a discussion. By not doing so, you are either ignorant of what you are doing or you are disrespecting others on purpose. I hope it's the former.
A final reminder of what it all boils down to. It's you who posted "Further, saying "there is no proof" is too soft; saying it's proven not to work is much more forceful and also more accurate." It's you who should provide them. Don't go posting a ton of links that doesn't actually show this super conclusive proof you're referring to and let other try to search them (just to confuse people with a bunch of gibberish). There's no backing out. People don't have to prove that acupuncture works. You have to prove that acupuncture doesn't work, by your own rules:
Consistency. Treasure it.
Your way of posting reminds me of the manga Bleach. Keep opening new plots, raising more questions, never giving a conclusion. By adding more and more stuff, you think you have a great story, but readers think it's full of flaws.
Not the first time I had to resort to arguing about how you argue to get things straight.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Where? The results show a moderate effect for pain relief, in line with the placebo effect and clinically insignificant compared to 'sham' acupunture (not actually sticking needles into the skin). People keep saying this but the evidence says otherwise. We should be using the placebo effect for pain relief, but people are acting like acupunture is the only or more effective way of harnessing it, it isn't.
Who acts like that?
All I see is people acting like it is NOT an effective way of harnessing it, while it is.
shanshan310
Member
I just think throwing people in jail is an insane over-reaction to something that gets results for people in pain, placebo or no.
Evidence seems to suggest that it's pretty effective in this quote here:
Night Hunter
Banned
Of course it's not free, but it certainly helps. Trust me, if it weren't effective and more cost efficient than other things the healthcare system certainly wouldn't be paying for it, as they are pretty quick to cut those things to save money. And like I said, a doctor has to prescribe it, otherwise you have to pay for it yourself.
Sutton Dagger
Member
My correction, people are acting like acupunture is significantly more effective than placebo, it isn't.
The people disputing the various health benefits attributed to acupunture are aware of the placebo effect, again it isn't the most effective in regards to cost/danger etc.
There's a difference between acupunture not being effective (which based on real-life accounts including those of my own family who have used it once for joint/muscle pain, I would believe is not true), and not being effective for all that acupuncturists claim it can heal. There is a strong tendency for a lot Chinese medicine to claim healing powers for a ton of seemingly unrelated ailments, probably just based on some patients' placebo effects that makes it "good enough" to be added to the list. Fengyoujing is a good example of that.
Sutton Dagger
Member
So no actual evidence, just a page from the NHS which don't actively endorse it, but have several NHS Homeopathic hospitals in the UK. They also pay for these treatments in Australia through private health insurance. Bottom line is, we have to follow the evidence (no, not anecdotes), which currently concludes that these 'treatments' are not effective (other than placebo).
Just heavily tax there service, force them to licences and permits to do thier work and call it a night.
Anyone who's willing to lead themselves to believe this bunk doesn't really have my sympathies.
If they want to pay for the service, let them pay for the service.
Any practicioner who is caught practicing with the proper licensing and doesn't pay his/her taxes should have the book thrown at them for whatevers applicable.
Anyone who's willing to lead themselves to believe this bunk doesn't really have my sympathies.
If they want to pay for the service, let them pay for the service.
Any practicioner who is caught practicing with the proper licensing and doesn't pay his/her taxes should have the book thrown at them for whatevers applicable.
Night Hunter
Banned
That could be a problem as I really don't trust the evidence. It was mentioned in this thread before, but western school medicine has barely begun to actually acknowledge that there is anything else. And as I am a firm believer in the principle that structure replicates itself and changes very slowly, maybe we would be better off having this conversation 50 years down the line.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Well if we don't follow the evidence then we are likely to believe in a whole host of ridiculous propositions, evidence is everything in science.
Night Hunter
Banned
No it's not. The ability to think outside the box is. That's what paradigm shifts are based upon. You can find evidence for anything if you just look hard enough. Science, as you make it out to be, is not perfect or ever complete. Thinking outside the box can lead to new study and new evidence which can actually advance a scientific field in general.
Just a question btw: Have you actually attended university? Because the mere notion that evidence is everything is pretty strange to me. If you have attended university I'd like to know what you studied, as it is my understanding that different fields approach this subject in very different ways. I for on study political/social science, so maybe I have a different view about this than say an engineer or chemist or doctor.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
If they should be jailed, shouldn't authority figures in religion go to jail too? We know there is no fucking god and there is no proof to back them up so why do people give them money? Prison please.
I think he meant to say "empirical evidence is everything".
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
I think he means that evidence is everything in science when your field is something you can be called a scientist in. I don't think you can call yourself a political scientist.
Sutton Dagger
Member
Your first paragraph is based on a logical fallacy (strawman), when did I say 'science was perfect'. I said that science is based on evidence, more precisely empirical evidence that is both repeatable and falsifiable. You can 'think outside the box' all you like, if you don't have scientific evidence for your claim in relation to a scientific field of enquiry then it isn't science.
I don't know what my formal education has to do with the application of science in medicine, but I have a degree in education, I'm a teacher. I'm also a skeptic, big on critical thinking, interested in epistemology and philosophy, in awe of science and a married Australian male. Do these things change how we apply evidence to claims?
Yes, I should have been more precise with my wording.
LostCaress
Member
As someone exercising medicine without a license I hope they don't jail other fraudsters, that could end badly for myself.
gutter_trash
Banned
acupuncture for relieving stress is a real deal.
The debate about the efficacy of antidepressants appears to have been going on for "decade" full stop based on meta-research from a psychologist who has not even run clinical trials because as a psychologist he doesn't have a medical degree or the license to prescribe drugs in the first place.
There is literally no reason for many SSRIs to continue to be prescribed unless there is proven efficacy -- the bad bogeyman of "big pharma" doesn't even apply in most cases since the drugs have been on the market for so long that they've lost their patents and generic brands are widely available for less than 20 cents a pill.
Fury Sense
Member
The title of the thread sounds absurd to me. I'm not familiar with the false claims these practitioners make, but I never had a perception of them as tricksters.
This is the first result when I google "acupuncture cleveland." Let me examine this...
I am going to have a hard time believing this website is tricking people into accepting their services as meaningful medical treatment. The marketing copy is more comparable to that of a relaxation spa than a medical institution. I don't really know what exactly constitutes "medical fraud" either, but I do know that there isn't enough room in prison for everyone who "bills for unnecessary services that have been comprehensively proven by a large body of scientific data to be ineffective."
This is the first result when I google "acupuncture cleveland." Let me examine this...
Okay, I believe it.
Still not bothered.
Okay, now I wonder what "great results" are. Is he referencing the previous sentence about pain control? Or is he claiming to cure diseases? I don't think he's claiming to cure diseases.
I can't argue with this. People have great success without any treatment, so this is perfectly believable.
Placebo effect is good enough to explain this claim.
I am going to have a hard time believing this website is tricking people into accepting their services as meaningful medical treatment. The marketing copy is more comparable to that of a relaxation spa than a medical institution. I don't really know what exactly constitutes "medical fraud" either, but I do know that there isn't enough room in prison for everyone who "bills for unnecessary services that have been comprehensively proven by a large body of scientific data to be ineffective."
Er, the people who decide to 'pass' medicine in the UK are NICE. lol.
Hey, I'm not saying accupuncture works, I'm in the against box. But let's not be blind sighted by the fact that NICE is irrelevant in the UK.
I am not sure acupuncturists should be lumped in with the other two. I think like chiro, the benefits are far overstated and the usage is very dependent on the person doing the treatment and the patient.
Studies are mixed to be sure. I am also completely fine with it not being covered by insurance. It is likely the majority of cases (including the brochure above) are much closer to scam. That doesn't mean it conclusively can;t have a benefit.
Homeopaths and faith healers are different in that they absolutely cannot have an actual non-placebo benefit.
Studies are mixed to be sure. I am also completely fine with it not being covered by insurance. It is likely the majority of cases (including the brochure above) are much closer to scam. That doesn't mean it conclusively can;t have a benefit.
Homeopaths and faith healers are different in that they absolutely cannot have an actual non-placebo benefit.
We actually are. Stepping away from acupuncture and about myself for a minute so bear with me. Its just that many of the methods are lumped in with quackery or they don't look at everything as a whole. Basically everyone claims relief but its more involved than that. For example I can defeat that pain, I really can, but typically to even get to that point in terms of pain involves former injuries, recent or distant past, or bad habits that need fixing.
Let's take your example, low back pain and let's say its because of constant computer use and not other injuries. In this case, what usually happens is the low back pain is what you feel but its far more complex. The posture is not only bad in the lower back, but in the neck and shoulders too. All the muscles affected are squishing the nerves hence the pain and they never let go, they are pretty much permanently contracted. Migraines, neck pain, stiff arms, all kinds of stuff. After years of use, the muscles lock in this position. Your low back is most rounded, but so is your upper back, your head and neck are forward, and your shoulders are slumped and rounded forward. Your rib area muscles are tight, your pelvis is tilted, and your butt is getting strained as well. Its a whole chain and all the muscles need to be addressed. And one session will not do it.
Furthermore, the persons diet is usually poor, leading to lethargy and more poor posture and lack of strength.
Even AFTER those are corrected and accounted for, the person usually has to restrengthen those muscles for healthy energy and correct posture.
And even IF you're lucky enough to get a client who is motivated to do all of this, which is pretty rare, (because its often disheartening to hear how much they have to change about their habits, and how much is involved for full correction), it even goes one step further. They have to take breaks and CONTINUE to be smart about their posture and health.
And unfortunately, I'm not qualified to give diagnoses, all I'm allowed to say legally is that it might help to look at diet, strength training with proper form, breaks, and stress relief. All I'm allowed to do really is try to fix the pain but its so much more involved than that.
Edit: and that's not even getting into other things. Did you know that emotional stress can also cause pain? Muscles tense up when you're stressed, and if you're a stressed out regularly type of person, it will have the same effect as muscle overuse and bad posture and injuries. This is all VERY well known, but the problem is everybody's and expert... but no one wants to put ALL these things together.
I WILL give massive credit to some of the better physical therapists out there. Some really DO see the whole picture and don't throw pills at the problem, and actually refer out everywhere and see that their patient gets a full picture and full relief if they work at it. I don't know where they're graduating from, but they're out there.
Edit 2: I can talk a lot more about this including chiropractic and how they all fit, or don't fit, together depending on the case, and the severity of it. Everyones different, but the basic components click and make sense when you get the whole picture.
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