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should I apply to Law School?
- Thread starter shadowsdarknes
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BronzeWolf
Banned
GashPrex said:
Sorry you are still wrong.
When people mean there are no jobs
it means
THERE ARE NO JOBS!
Do you seriously believe this people are only looking at 80k+ jobs? Most graduates would give an arm or a leg to have any job at all!
Sathsquatch
Member
GashPrex said:
Actually, I am about to hang up my shingle, even though I found a good paying job. I think most of them are nervous because of how little we actually learn about legal practice in law school, and they are scared about whether or not anyone will hire a recent graduate in tough economic times. It does not help that we are in the DC area, where there are so many lawyers already and the waiver process takes so long. There are essentially no clerkships available.
Some of them do document review, but that's not exactly making them more marketable or building their legal skills.
Are you a solo practitioner? Like I said, I am about to hang up my shingle and I am curious how its been for other people doing it shortly after law school.
I'm pretty much repeating what everyone else said, but if you decide to go, make sure you really.really.really want to study law. Not that you want to be a lawyer, but that you honestly want to study law...all the time. I mean like spending up to 12 hours a day studying. I'm in my first semester of law school and am just getting through finals and it is so hard to stay motivated and keep studying after about ten of these 12 hour days. Actually practicing law is very different from going to law school, and three years of school is a long time if your heart isn't into it. I know a few students who dropped out and every one was sure they wanted to practice law, but they weren't able to keep themselves motivated through school.
If you have any questions are applying or your first year, I'm always available by PM.
If you have any questions are applying or your first year, I'm always available by PM.
Sathsquatch said:
No, I am not a solo practitioner but I certainly would be one if my job hadn't worked out for me. My office has one other attorney and I basically do his overload, handle his cases when he is scheduled to be in two places at once, and have my own case load of 11 court appointed cases(in 2 months). In some ways, I look forward to the day I can be my own boss. The great thing about being a lawyer is that you and your work are the product - and you have already invested the capital in creating that. No need to manufacture/resell widgets that cost upfront. Office space isn't expensive and starting out you certainly can do all your own secretarial work.
I agree its scary hanging your own shingle, but thats how a lot of successful lawyers started out. I worked at a local criminal defense firm/Federal Defender's Office/Legal Clinic all through law school so I was very comfortable coming out and working on cases, be that in an office or own my own. Of course I don't know everything, but lawyers are always willing to help out and mentor. Its certainly better than just hanging out and doing nothing.
As for law school, 1st year was tough and 2nd year was even busier. Third year was a bit boring except for clinic because I just wanted to get out there and start being a lawyer. Journal was mind numbingly boring. The bar is the worst part of all in my opinion.
BananaBomb
Member
Being a lawyer sounds terrible. It seems like you'd have better luck getting a history PhD and becoming a professor :lol
MaximumX2 said:
IMO, if you are willing to do that for undergrad, you will be fine. Law school is a commitment and can be frustrating a lot in the 1st year. After that you get the hang of it and IMO it becomes pretty routine.
The difficult part from my experience was the amount of knowledge you are expected to know and apply. Generally, you will have a lengthy fact pattern (ie, mary drove her car and was hit a bus that then hit a pedestrian, but the pedestrian was pushed into the street by a child and it was snowing) where you will be expected to pick out the issues, state what the rule of law is regarding that issue, and apply the facts to that - and possibly argue both sides. They generally don't care about the answer, just that you applied it properly and were able to make a coherent argument each way. Generally you have about 2 weeks of study time for your finals which sounds like a lot but it's really not. I studied from 7am till like 9pm on those days and it was fine.
I think its important that you stay disciplined throughout the semester to make sure you are understanding things as you go along so you are not trying to learn everything at the end. That's when people get in big trouble. Though I always felt like I learned everything during reading week.
elrechazado
Banned
No, you should not apply to law school. Unless you enjoy crushing debt, a 3% chance to get one of those great post law school jobs you always hear about that make 150k a year to start (whereupon you then work 90 hour weeks in a grindmill that is designed to get you to quit after your first year or two), and the likelihood that you'll instead be saddled with 6 figures in debt and making 40-60k per year.shadowsdarknes said:
My kids will be plumbers.
Yeah this is true. Specially if you are in Investment Banking. I have no desire for a position in iBanking. I value my life a lot more than 100k of which a lot of you won't be able to enjoy for years due to the ridiculous working hours. If you want to work in BigLaw and Investment Banking, kiss your social life/hobbies/personal time goodbye.elrechazao said:
MaximumX2 said:
Basically, it differs a lot between professors and what they require. But at least in my experience, your final counts for 100% of your grade in the class and contains at least 3 or so fact patterns, or major hypotheticals. Basically you're given this crazy story with usually about five or six people doing all sorts of crazy things. Usually, you're asked to point out what certain people can be held liable for, what counter arguments could be brought, what problems might come up with when trying to establish liability, what kind of damages could be brought and so on. Obviously, not everyone recognizes the same issues or comes to the same conclusions, but that doesn't matter as much as how well you argue the issues you do spot.
That doesn't sound so bad, but it can be. Throughout the semester you learn all these rules regarding the possible issues, and standards to use to decide liability. Basically, I had about a 40 page outline of all the issues and rules we discussed this semester in each class. Some of my classes allow you to use those outlines while taking the final. Some do not.
Also, most law school classes are curved. So the other big difference is that you really have no idea how you did on your exam. My first final, I ran out of time and felt rushed and horrible about it, but so did everyone else. On my final today, I feel like I nailed all the issues, but so did most of the other people in the class. That's the worst part, I think. You don't just need to do well, you need to do well compared to everyone else.
Yeah. We have four days between each exam and I've spent from 10am to midnight every day studying for exams since the 7th, except for on the days I've had exams. And I have felt extremely underprepared for all the exams so far.
Aswankster
Neo Member
I'm a freshman in college, majoring in history, and planned to go to law school after I graduated. However, i read that Astrolad thread and have been having second thoughts. The only problem is, besides a career in film, i have absolutely zero interest in anything else. I just picked law because i couldn't think of anything else and it allowed me to major in history without becoming a teacher.
*reposted for the new page*
I want to work in government/public policy, and I've been looking at getting a Masters in Public Policy/Administration (after graduating undergrad and working for a few years) because it seems like it is most relevant to my career goals. But then I hear some people say that a JD opens up just as many opportunities as a MPP and then some. Then I hear other people say that you should only go to Law school if you want to be a lawyer. So I'm a bit confused. What does GAF think? At this point I'm thinking maybe I should go for the joint JD/MPP degree that many schools offer.
I want to work in government/public policy, and I've been looking at getting a Masters in Public Policy/Administration (after graduating undergrad and working for a few years) because it seems like it is most relevant to my career goals. But then I hear some people say that a JD opens up just as many opportunities as a MPP and then some. Then I hear other people say that you should only go to Law school if you want to be a lawyer. So I'm a bit confused. What does GAF think? At this point I'm thinking maybe I should go for the joint JD/MPP degree that many schools offer.
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
AstroLad has duped you all... he doesn't want any more competition in his field.. smart guy!
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Go to law school if you can get into a top school (about 25-30 schools, inclusive of the T14) or if you can get into a respectable school with minimal debt (state school like Rutgers, UC Davis). This is the only way to do it without drowning in debt.
The top schools give you a chance to get that job to pay off that debt. The lower schools won't get you that big paycheck as certain as the elite ones will, but your debt will be far more manageable.
Also, plan on not staying in that big law job for long. Huge attrition rate. Most do it for the prestige, paying off loans, and amassing money asap. Then they bail because it's not for them.
Signed,
2L
The top schools give you a chance to get that job to pay off that debt. The lower schools won't get you that big paycheck as certain as the elite ones will, but your debt will be far more manageable.
Also, plan on not staying in that big law job for long. Huge attrition rate. Most do it for the prestige, paying off loans, and amassing money asap. Then they bail because it's not for them.
Signed,
2L
To be honest if you have to ask, NO.
There are more reasons to not go to Law School than there are.
Yes if you work hard you will be rewarded but with so many students still applying and many graduation with no job prospects that you can only work so hard until it starts coming down to what school you went and what your class rank was.
Honestly I'm gonna assume you will hate your life after going through law school because more likely than not you will with this kind of market.
Seriously do you foresee job growth for legal professions?
There are more reasons to not go to Law School than there are.
Yes if you work hard you will be rewarded but with so many students still applying and many graduation with no job prospects that you can only work so hard until it starts coming down to what school you went and what your class rank was.
Honestly I'm gonna assume you will hate your life after going through law school because more likely than not you will with this kind of market.
Seriously do you foresee job growth for legal professions?
You're a freshman in college, you shouldn't have any clue as to what you want to be "when you grow up". Make good grades, but more importantly have fun, don't be afraid to screw up. Take a social geography class, you'd be amazed at the overlap with history, take an astronomy class with lab, you get to go the planetarium and also get to look through telescopes, basically don't narrow your focus too much until you're sure of your major.Aswankster said:
Most importantly, once you find something you are really interested in, pursue it completely, whether or not you think the job prospects for it are good. I started college determined to get a BS in computer science, I got a BA in Poli Sci and now I'm working for Veterans Affairs. The first thing you have to learn is that what you learn (or want to learn) in college doesn't define who you are as a person.
Sorry if that all came off as a sappy graduation speech, but, it's true to my experience.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
I would re-evaluate the work I was willing to do if I were you. People who say that money isn't important forget one thing. Money is like love, sex and air. They don't worry you all that much when you have enough, but they're ever so important when you have none.Aswankster said:
How much a job pays depends on two factors: supply and demand.
Supply of labour increases when:
1) There are a large number of people able to do the work compared to the amount of work available
2) There are a large number of people willing to do the work compared to the amount of work available
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are high (e.g. prestige, ease of work)
Demand for labour increases when:
1) There is a small number of people able to do the work compared to the amount of work available
2) There is a small number of people willing to do the work compared to the amount of work available
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are low (e.g. prestige, ease of work)
What you want if you don't want a job filled with soul-crushing boredom, back-breaking labour or life under the poverty line is to get into a field with high demand for labour. For instance:
Secreterial work
1) A large number of people can do the job
2) A large number of people are willing to do the job
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are mid-range (middle class white-collar work)
These are weighted heavily toward the Supply end of things, so the expected pay for secreterial work is relatively low.
Garbage Collection
1) A large number of people can do the job
2) A small number of people are willing to do the job
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are low (dangerous blue-collar work, perception that pay is low)
These are weighted heavily toward the Demand end of things, so the expected pay for garbage collection is relatively high.
Acting
1) A large number of people can do the job
2) A large number of people are willing to do the job
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are high (promise of money and fame)
These are weighted heavily toward the Supply end of things, so the expected pay for actors is relatively low.
Plumbing
1) A small number of people can do the job (requires an apprenticeship)
2) A small number of people are willing to do the job
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are low (hard blue-collar work)
These are weighted heavily toward the Demand end of things, so the expected pay for plumbing is relatively high.
Law
1) A large number of people can do the job (thanks to law schools pumping out grads)
2) A large number of people are willing to do the job (see above)
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are high (prestige, promise of money)
These are weighted heavily toward the Supply end of things, so the expected pay for lawyers is relatively low.
Prostitution
1) A large number of people can do the job
2) A small number of people are willing to do the job
3) The perceived benefits of doing the work are low (dangerous work, looked down upon)
These are weighted heavily toward the Demand end of things, so the expected pay for prostitution is relatively high.
Bottom line: DON'T DO LAW
EDIT:
I'm quoting this because it is important for your future to understand the fundamentals of economics. There's no need to go further into the esoteric side of things, but if you gain an intuitive understanding of basic economics (supply and demand, market distortion, market failure, the differences between Keynesian theory and Lolbetarian Austrian theory etc.), you will function much better as an adult and as a citizen of your country.giga said:
Understand it because it teaches you about the forces that shape your world. Just don't always put too much stock in its predictions because all economic models are but simplifications of the real thing - they're useful for decision making, but they don't always work.
Byakuya769
Member
Bboy AJ said:
is your avatar the MLT guy?
viciouskillersquirrel said:
holy shit dude
I'm not being facetious at all when I say your post was truly profound.
Wow.
I've been planning to apply to law school for the last year or so since I graduated, and after reading this thread (and viciouskillersquirrel's post) I'm having serious second thoughts.
And now I am back to not knowing what the hell to do as far as a career goes.
Byakuya769
Member
S1lent said:
hahahah
S1lent said:
seriously if you were that easily swayed into not considering law school then its better you don't anyway.
Going to law school is tough and is not for those who dont have a strong head on their shoulders and afterwards the debt you amass you will either pay off quickly or pay it off the rest of your life. Basically unless you can be at the top then you will hate your life.
Also to the poster considering applying for law school at UC Irvine because its free, if you can and are serious I would.
If you can get out of law school without any debt you can basically do what you want afterwards such as pro-bono work without a huge dollar sign looming over your head.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
The first time you ever saw it, it must have blown your mind. I know it blew mine. Despite its simplicity, it isn't actually something that's terribly intuitive, so if you know nothing about economics, it will still be difficult to grasp.S1lent said:
Even if you've seen it previously, when you see it applied, you mightn't ever see it apply to anything relevant to your day-to-day existence. Hell, even when it is, the writer often assumes you know all the principles already and explains over many people's heads.
So yeah, if you're in your teens or have done mostly humanities and haven't seen it before, you'd be forgiven for admiring its elegance.
EdgecrusherLSU
Neo Member
I can't get the image of a lawyer-Goku out of my head. If only I could photoshop properly.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
It's not that hard. Just start with an image of Phoenix Wright, dye his hair blonde and give him blue eyes.EdgecrusherLSU said:
EdgecrusherLSU
Neo Member
viciouskillersquirrel said:
How's this?
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Who?Byakuya769 said:
:lolkazuo said:holy shit dude
I'm not being facetious at all when I say your post was truly profound.
Wow.
I've been planning to apply to law school for the last year or so since I graduated, and after reading this thread (and viciouskillersquirrel's post) I'm having serious second thoughts.
And now I am back to not knowing what the hell to do as far as a career goes.
I... I don't know what to say. I guess just thank him. He really helped your future if it's profound to you.
Byakuya769
Member
Bboy AJ said:
The guy in your avatar looks like John Rice, but I guess that's not him.
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