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[The Technomancer]

Right. He didn't get rich until his books got big and he was elected to the Senate. Romney was born rich. But they're both rich now. Even if 5-10 million isn't a lot compared to 200 million.

I guess I would say the argument is that its very hard to make the claim that Romney on a very holistic intuitive level has any idea what the average non-gratuitously wealthy life is like. Obama, to a greater degree then Romney at least, does.

 

[Cyan]

First post nails it as usual.

The part where he said "Right after John Kerry does retroactively"? i.e. Mittens should release them immediately, since John Kerry already did?

Or the part where he implies people running for president shouldn't be held to any higher standard than those running for congress?

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

no one cares about the reasons it was put in place, I'm only stating a fact. If Romney did not give 10% of his income to his church, he would not be able to enter the temples at all.

Given that, it's dishonest to claim that tithing is a purely charitable donation (as it is with most other religions not named the church of scientology) as ann romney claims it is since for instance..the catholic church will still allow you to participate in all church functions even if you contribute nothing. In that case where there is no difference (besides maybe a little shame) between tithing and not tithing it's charitable. When you lose the privileges of membership if you don't do it, it's not charity, it's self interest.

I don't give tithing for my own sake. How is it self interest? Even when I don't pay tithing, I still have access. You don't understand how it works. You don't lose privileges of membership. He would still be able to go.

 

[Cyan]

There are dozens of ways to classify assets and liabilities as charitable deductions that may ultimately save you money. A junk car is a dumb example, wherein it is a net negative to you, that becomes a positive when donated. It's also possible to do this with stocks, bonds, taxed, untaxed and other assets. I am sure there's a gaffer who could explain this stuff better, or provide a clearer example, like creating trusts for your children, etc, but even on my meagre income there are things I can do that directly benefit my financial situation above and beyond the feelgood factor. Given Romney's proclivity for tax shelters and his refusal to actually share that information, all I can do is speculate.

Oh, I see what you're getting at. I misunderstood you.

 

[Futureman]

It's been standard practice for both sides to release several years of tax returns in a presidential election for many years now.

Actually that link posted shows that Dubya is the only Republican candidate who released a substantial amount.

but yea I think Rom is a rat for not releasing more.

 

[Kinyou]

He's not rich, he's 'I fucked the system and cheated as much as I could' rich.

I like how he always points out that it's all legal. As if that would make it morally better.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

The part where he said "Right after John Kerry does retroactively"? i.e. Mittens should release them immediately, since John Kerry already did?

Or the part where he implies people running for president shouldn't be held to any higher standard than those running for congress?

The part where he agreed with Nancy Pelosi. I love her.

 

[Manmademan]

I don't give tithing for my own sake. How is it self interest? Even when I don't pay tithing, I still have access. You don't understand how it works. You don't lose privileges of membership. He would still be able to go.

Ok, so clear it up for me. I've been told (by mormon friends) that tithing honestly is part of the requirements for temple admittance. Is that not accurate? Is it not possible to lose temple access? and if it is possible, what is the criteria?

If it's possible AT ALL that temple access could be lost if Romney decides to cut all tithes to zero tomorrow (when affordability is not an issue) then it is not charity.

 

[RDreamer]

The man has the nerve to campaign on lowering taxes for the extremely wealthy when he's too embarrassed to come forward about what he really pays. He paid a 14% tax rate in 2010, and there's a high probability he paid taxes in the single digits during the aughts.

Pretty much this.

The guy is campaigning on 2 things 1) his career as a businessman and 2) tax policy

Both of these things, I think, require his tax returns be released so the American people can really get to know what's going on with him.

1) It shows what he really gained in his business and how he functioned as a businessman. As someone else put it, tax returns are like the rosetta stone for a businessman. If he wants to sell America that this is why he should be our president, then he needs to be transparent with his returns.

2) He's running on the theory that richer people are being taxed too much, and that this should be lowered. If he truly believes he's correct, then he should show us how his life reflects it. Why is he afraid of this? Again, if he truly believes as he does about the tax code, then he should want to show all instances of it. Unless of course his tax code doesn't fit his narrative, in which case I think the American people need to know.

Basically, the guy needs to put his proverbial money where his mouth is. Not only is this a precedent, I think it's crucial to the arguments he's trying to make.

 

[DarkFlow]

According to records Romney and his wife are shown to have given $7 million to charity in a span of 2 years.

And bill gates is pushing close to 3 billion. Why won't gates run, I'd vote for him.

 

[Cyan]

The part where he agreed with Nancy Pelosi. I love her.

Oh, I think we all do.

 

[SUPREME1]

Fuck yes. I'd like to know how this man made his money.

1. Because I'd like to get ahead and could use the info.
2. Because I'd like to know whether or not the man can be trusted or to what extent he's a liar.
3. Because I want to know that the PotUS is paying his taxes just like I am.

 

[smurfx]

did mitt romney commit a felony? maybe.

 

[Cyan]

did mitt romney commit a felony? maybe.

Whoa! You better apologize for that!

 

[Eight Diagram Bat Fighter]

Ok, so clear it up for me. I've been told (by mormon friends) that tithing honestly is part of the requirements for temple admittance. Is that not accurate? Is it not possible to lose temple access? and if it is possible, what is the criteria?

If it's possible AT ALL that temple access could be lost if Romney decides to cut all tithes to zero tomorrow (when affordability is not an issue) then it is not charity.

It's not a requirement. It's definitely encouraged though. You can lose temple access if you're not found worthy due to immorality or other beliefs contradictory to what the temple provides. Romney already got married and sealed in the temple, there are no other ceremonies after that that you need. So having to keep access to the temple really isn't necessary, although nice to have. I'm sure he give tithing more than he attends the temple anyway. So yeah, it's a charity, because temple access isn't something he needs.

 

[ReBurn]

Tax returns. Good thing that whole unemployment/economy thing has been taken care of that this is one of the most important issues facing the US right now.

 

[remnant]

Right after John Kerry does retroactively, along with all of congress.

Relevant:
http://www.rollcall.com/news/nancy_pelosi_downplays_tax_return_demand-216283-1.html
As recently as Wednesday, Pelosi had strongly urged Romney to provide further disclosure of his tax returns. But today, while maintaining Romney should release more documents because of “custom” and “tradition,” Pelosi said the issue was trivial compared with economic issues.

“We spent too much time on that. We should be talking about middle-income tax cuts,” Pelosi said after answering two questions about the issue.

The Minority Leader faced questions about the issue after a McClatchy News report showed only 17 of 535 Members released their tax returns when asked.

lol

WOW lol is there video of this?

 

[Gr1mLock]

The right screamed for Obama to release his birth certificate for months. How is this different.

 

[Stinkles]

Tax returns. Good thing that whole unemployment/economy thing has been taken care of that this is one of the most important issues facing the US right now.

Picking appropriate leaders to fix those things. How does that work?

 

[The Technomancer]

The right screamed for Obama to release his birth certificate for months. How is this different.

Obama's birth certificate didn't have any relation to anything he was platforming on.

 

[DarkFlow]

Please. There is more of a practical difference between someone of the Obama family's level of wealth and middle class than between him and Romney.

Thanks for missing the point.

 

[remnant]

Pretty much this.

The guy is campaigning on 2 things 1) his career as a businessman and 2) tax policy

Both of these things, I think, require his tax returns be released so the American people can really get to know what's going on with him.

1) It shows what he really gained in his business and how he functioned as a businessman. As someone else put it, tax returns are like the rosetta stone for a businessman. If he wants to sell America that this is why he should be our president, then he needs to be transparent with his returns.

2) He's running on the theory that richer people are being taxed too much, and that this should be lowered. If he truly believes he's correct, then he should show us how his life reflects it. Why is he afraid of this? Again, if he truly believes as he does about the tax code, then he should want to show all instances of it. Unless of course his tax code doesn't fit his narrative, in which case I think the American people need to know.

Basically, the guy needs to put his proverbial money where his mouth is. Not only is this a precedent, I think it's crucial to the arguments he's trying to make.

It not like any democrat is going to vote for him anyway. Why bother caving into hollow demands

 

[Clevinger]

The right screamed for Obama to release his birth certificate for months. How is this different.

A birth certificate has nothing to do with anyone's policies as president. Taxes do.

Tax returns. Good thing that whole unemployment/economy thing has been taken care of that this is one of the most important issues facing the US right now.

One of Romney's main campaign themes is lowing taxes for the rich, and this is one of the biggest ways he hopes to improve the economy. So, uh, yeah, taxes are pretty relevant to Romney's economic platform.

 

[MThanded]

Right after John Kerry does retroactively, along with all of congress.

Relevant:
http://www.rollcall.com/news/nancy_pelosi_downplays_tax_return_demand-216283-1.html
As recently as Wednesday, Pelosi had strongly urged Romney to provide further disclosure of his tax returns. But today, while maintaining Romney should release more documents because of “custom” and “tradition,” Pelosi said the issue was trivial compared with economic issues.

“We spent too much time on that. We should be talking about middle-income tax cuts,” Pelosi said after answering two questions about the issue.

The Minority Leader faced questions about the issue after a McClatchy News report showed only 17 of 535 Members released their tax returns when asked.

lol

Kerry had released 20 years of taxes before running for president, during which he released two more. Try again

First post nails it as usual.

Bulbo you can't read.

 

[ReBurn]

Picking appropriate leaders to fix those things. How does that work?

Tax returns make that possible? How does an effective tax rate make someone a good or appropriate leader?

 

[commedieu]

Aren't they calling for it due to his name being attached as CEO of a company he claimed he didn't work for anymore?

Yes. And his IRA that increased more than alien math.

My vote is yes, because america has already embarrassed itself demanding a birth certificate from a sitting president.

 

[RDreamer]

It not like any democrat is going to vote for him anyway. Why bother caving into hollow demands

How is it a hollow demand? As I said, it's crucial to why he's running and what he's running on. Also, quite a few republicans are demanding it now, too. Actually they've been demanding it. Did you see the republican primary? This isn't some random democratic demand. It's logical that he release them, and both sides know why.

 

[Cyan]

It is kind of fun to see all the same arguments from the PoliGAF thread being rehashed yet again.

 

[The Technomancer]

It is kind of fun to see all the same arguments from the PoliGAF thread being rehashed yet again.

And there's very little activity in PoliGAF at the moment either. Its like this thread is a vampire.

 

[MThanded]

It not like any democrat is going to vote for him anyway. Why bother caving into hollow demands

What does that have to do with anything?

Birthers aren't going to vote for Obama either.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Tax returns. Good thing that whole unemployment/economy thing has been taken care of that this is one of the most important issues facing the US right now.

It still shocks me to see how little flack the administration gets for completely fucking up on fixing the employment figures when it had the chance. $700 bn "stimulus" package for a $15 trillion economy is hilarious enough, but that there was virtually zero increase in spending on infrastructure projects which would have directly descreased unemployment is beyond wonder.

 

[Manmademan]

It's not a requirement. It's definitely encouraged though. You can lose temple access if you're not found worthy due to immorality or other beliefs contradictory to what the temple provides. Romney already got married and sealed in the temple, there are no other ceremonies after that that you need. So having to keep access to the temple really isn't necessary, although nice to have. I'm sure he give tithing more than he attends the temple anyway. So yeah, it's a charity, because temple access isn't something he needs.

A wiki search brings up many sources including scripture which seem to indicate that it IS a requirement. I'm going to have to disagree with you here until I see some sources. Sorry.

Romney has children, and possibly grandchildren. If those children get married in the temple and romney (because he decides to stop tithing) is no longer found "worthy", does romney still need temple access to attend that wedding?

Would losing temple access as a high profile businessman and potentially politician reflect negatively on his business or political career?

i think its dishonest to claim he no longer "needs" it, or it "no longer makes a difference."

It not like any democrat is going to vote for him anyway. Why bother caving into hollow demands

Democrats might not, but Independents certainly care, and there are more independents than there are Democrats OR republicans. And Independents have expressed an interest in seeing those records released.

 

[Clevinger]

Tax returns make that possible? How does an effective tax rate make someone a good or appropriate leader?

Having a low tax rate and wanting to lower it much, much further makes someone a shitty leader, in my humble opinion.

 

[AstroNut325]

Of course not. It's not reasonable in any fashion to request the tax returns of any person. Yes... that includes people running for US president! Just think about it. If he releases the returns and we find out that he was paying sub-5% for many years... it would lead to public outrage over something that is a minuscule issue.

Instead, we just need to focus on cutting taxes and therefore provide incentives for people to pursue wealth. It will help people grab their bootstraps and fight to get into lower tax payment territory. In turn we have people working harder, creating more output, more production, and helping the economy. It's the only sound, logical solution.

 

[The Technomancer]

Of course not. It's not reasonable in any fashion to request the tax returns of any person. Yes... that includes people running for US president! Just think about it. If he releases the returns and we find out that he was paying sub-5% for many years... it would lead to public outrage over something that is a minuscule issue.

Instead, we just need to focus on cutting taxes and therefore provide incentives for people pursuing wealth. It will help people grab their bootstraps and fight to get into lower tax payment territory. In turn we have people working harder, creating more output, more production, and helping the economy. It's the only sound, logical solution.

This is the best kind of post, where it gradually dawns on you halfway through.

 

[MThanded]

Of course not. It's not reasonable in any fashion to request the tax returns of any person. Yes... that includes people running for US president! Just think about it. If he releases the returns and we find out that he was paying sub-5% for many years... it would lead to public outrage over something that is a minuscule issue.

Instead, we just need to focus on cutting taxes and therefore provide incentives for people pursuing wealth. It will help people grab their bootstraps and fight to get into lower tax payment territory. In turn we have people working harder, creating more output, more production, and helping the economy. It's the only sound, logical solution.

You got me.

 

[Gr1mLock]

A birth certificate has nothing to do with anyone's policies as president. Taxes do.

Disclosing personal information. In the same spirit.

 

[Cyan]

It still shocks me to see how little flack the administration gets for completely fucking up on fixing the employment figures when it had the chance. $700 bn "stimulus" package for a $15 trillion economy is hilarious enough, but that there was virtually zero increase in spending on infrastructure projects which would have directly descreased unemployment is beyond wonder.

They got flack from economists (and from plenty of bloggers and GAF posters and other people whose opinions don't matter). But it's not going to be widespread, because there's zero chance of the GOP attacking them from the left, and without a GOP attack, the media doesn't care.

So... yeah.

 

[commedieu]

Aren't they calling for it due to his name being attached as CEO of a company he claimed he didn't work for anymore?

Yes. And his IRA that increased more than alien math.

My vote is yes, because america has already embarrassed itself demanding a birth certificate from a sitting president.

None of this crap matters though, the rich stay rich no matter dem or republican, and the middle class keeps disappearing more and more. I just like watching Fox news go apeshit.

 

[minor effort]

Yes, because as a voter I'm going to assume the worst until he releases them.

 

[Agnostic]

Romney should release tax returns and birth certificate.

 

[Clevinger]

Disclosing personal information. In the same spirit.

Yeah, it's just like that thing, except in all the ways it isn't.

 

[remnant]

How is it a hollow demand? As I said, it's crucial to why he's running and what he's running on. Also, quite a few republicans are demanding it now, too. Actually they've been demanding it. Did you see the republican primary? This isn't some random democratic demand. It's logical that he release them, and both sides know why.

It's not crucial because it's not going to turn anyone. We will learn that mitt is really rich(a.k.a more evil) and until then people on the left will push this issue as if they actually give a crap. As if Romney giving his information would have made a difference in their obama vote at all.

It's petty politics. Obama isn't american hence birth records. Romney is to rich/got his money illegally hence we need to probe his finances like he is a criminal.

 

[Manmademan]

Disclosing personal information. In the same spirit.

Not sure the birth certificate comparison is a legit one. Obama released his short form certificate when pressed, and then went above and beyond and obtained a legal exemption from the state of hawaii to make the LONG form public, when neither one was "required."

All because not doing so was in the public interest, as the issue had become a distraction to the actual important issues.

 

[Big Baybee]

Disclosing personal information. In the same spirit.

Its not the fucking same and you know it. lol My god.

 

[commedieu]

This is all 100% Romneys fault though. He lied about bain to make himself look better. But again, I'm saying a politician is lying.. lol nm. Enjoy the thread boys

seacrest..ooouut

 

[silentspork]

Not sure the birth certificate comparison is a legit one. Obama released his short form certificate when pressed, and then went above and beyond and obtained a legal exemption from the state of hawaii to make the LONG form public, when neither one was "required."

All because not doing so was in the public interest, as the issue had become a distraction to the actual important issues.

You and your facts, pfff.

 

[Cooter]

It's irrelevant and truly sickening that with all the problems the United States has at the moment that this has become the only issue being discussed. Release 5 years, 10 years, 2 years, or zero years for all I care. It's a non issue.

 

[xbhaskarx]

It will take his team until halfway through his first term before they can release a fake/doctored version that is believable and politically acceptable. I'm basing that timetable on Obama's birth certificate.

 

[ezrarh]

I mean, he already released last years and says he's going to release this years as well so he recognizes it's something important to do. However, nobody cares about the tax returns during the years he's running for president - we already know he's rich. The previous 18 years would be more interesting and by virtue of being hesitant to release the tax returns, we know there is some dubious stuff in there so at this point, it doesn't even matter. Damned if he does or does not.