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[Joel Was Right]

Listen 10min audio debate

From personal experience, I have seen teachers being kicked down the stairs, teachers leaving classrooms with blood gashing from their head - teachers crying in the middle of class, some even quitting because of the emotional abuse they've had from kids.

The cane may not change the kid's behaviour but it would bring a sense of fear and consequently respect for the teachers. But crucially, schools are losing good teachers and as a result the education of the well behave kids suffer.

What say you?

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Yeahno.

In the schools where student behavior is so bad that they emotionally and physically attack the teachers, the only thing the cane will do is escalate physicality.

You think those inner city kids are bad now? Wait till you give them (in their mind) a valid excuse for physical retaliation.

 

[eznark]

Sure, in private schools where the parents know what is going on.

 

[i_am_ben]

ruh roh.


bailout.gif

 

[gdt]

No.

What kind of question is that?

 

[Joel Was Right]

Yeahno.

In the schools where student behavior is so bad that they emotionally and physically attack the teachers, the only thing the cane will do is escalate physicality.

You think those inner city kids are bad now? Wait till you give them (in their mind) a valid excuse for physical retaliation.

But surely the current approach is a factor for the audacity in kids attacking and abusing - not only adults - but their own tutors? I mean the go to class every morning to learn. That teacher is their parent for the remainder for the school day, dislike them or like them, the least they deserve is respect.

 

[sikkinixx]

I dunno... I scoff at it but my parents/grandparents tell me that when they were in school, people shut the fuck up and listened, at home and at school, because they didn't want an ass whomping. Now, kids my gf looks after (6-9 age) tell the teacher to go away, or shut up and stuff. Maybe they do need a fucking smack, by a teacher or parent. Once they get to the age where they realize that teacher can't really DO anything besides scold them, what do they care?

 

[Woodsy]

It starts in the home. In the 50's it was commonpalce for kids to fear their parents and figures of authority, but since the "Peace, Love" generation started having kids, and their kids starting having kids, they became more enamored with having their kids think they were cool parents than in actually raising responsible, respectful kids. I think it finally hit a crescendo in the mid-90's until now when parents started having their kids call their friends parents "Mr. Steve" versus "Mr. Smith."

Hell, I'm still not comfortable calling my parents friends by their first names and I'm almost in my mid-30's.

 

[BloodySinner]

Permanently kick the child out of the school. If they still value their education, they can seek it elsewhere.

 

[Treo360]

Nobody but myself and my wife is laying a hand on my child.

It starts in the home. In the 50's it was commonpalce for kids to fear their parents and figures of authority, but since the "Peace, Love" generation started having kids, and their kids starting having kids, they became more enamored with having their kids think they were cool parents than in actually raising responsible, respectful kids. I think it finally hit a crescendo in the mid-90's until now when parents started having their kids call their friends parents "Mr. Steve" versus "Mr. Smith."

Hell, I'm still not comfortable calling my parents friends by their first names and I'm almost in my mid-30's.

Sums it up nicely.

 

[Wes]

Oddball idea:

If someone could create a system of denying all social networking access to a kid causing trouble, that would be a stronger deterrent than the cane.

 

[fistfulofmetal]

yes. let's let strangers beat our kids. makes perfect sense.

 

[Kinitari]

If a kid is willing to beat up a teacher to the point of inducing bleeding, why in fuck's name would a small stick be any sort of deterrent. These crazy kids would just take it away and beat the teacher with it.

It's dumb.

 

[Leunam]

Listen 10min audio debate

From personal experience, I have seen teachers being kicked down the stairs, teachers leaving classrooms with blood gashing from their head - teachers crying in the middle of class, some even quitting because of the emotional abuse they've had from kids.

The cane may not change the kid's behaviour but it would bring a sense of fear and consequently respect for the teachers. But crucially, schools are losing good teachers and as a result the education of the well behave kids suffer.

What say you?

And from my own personal experience, I've never seen or heard of that happening at the schools I attended.

You're not the only person with anecdotes.

 

[valkillmore]

We don't need canes in schools, we need the Tossed Salad Man in schools!

 

[SmokyDave]

Yes we should. There is now a generation of children being raised by teenage parents with no idea of the value of education. These parents want to be their childs 'friend' and will side with the child against the school at any opportunity. These parents are unable to correctly discipline their children. As the teachers are acting in loco parentis, they ought to be able to deal with the kids in any way they see fit as long as it is just and fair.

If we keep pussying around and pretending everyone is a delicate and beautiful snowflake then we'll end up in a very dark place.

Not to mention the stress the current situation places on teachers. Knowing a few teachers, I am shocked and appalled at the behaviour that they have to tolerate on a daily basis. The automatic presumption of guilt on the teacher in all disputes can fuck off too.

 

[Fenderputty]

From personal experience, I have seen teachers being kicked down the stairs, teachers leaving classrooms with blood gashing from their head - teachers crying in the middle of class, some even quitting because of the emotional abuse they've had from kids.

Holy fuck what school did you go to? I don't even think I've heard of such stories outside of your anecdotes.

Also ... corporal punishment is lame. I would never let a teacher hit my child. That's my job.

 

[Joel Was Right]

And from my own personal experience, I've never seen or heard of that happening at the schools I attended.

You're not the only person with anecdotes.

Clearly this isn't based on one man's personal experiences. The problem is real and it is common place. Saying you've never seen any of it doesn't change that reality.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

But surely the current approach is a factor for the audacity in kids attacking and abusing - not only adults - but their own tutors? I mean the go to class every morning to learn. That teacher is their parent for the remainder for the school day, dislike them or like them, the least they deserve is respect.

Nope.

The children behave like this because the system has already failed them. Right now you have hardened kids who have little options in life, cause once schools out their just going back to the corners. They know they aint gonna get anything out of school, because they're gonna become junkies or dealers. These kids know school's bullshit for them, so they just treat it like a battleground to fight through. Introduce more violence, and you increase the reaction to violence.

The problem with the kids is they see no reason to accept and respect the schools authority. Compared to that, a stick has jack-shit authority. Only thing bringing sticks is gonna do is make the kids bring their own (metaphorical) sticks.

To fix the kids, they need to accept the authority of the system. To do that, you gotta stop letting the system fuck these kids.

 

[Leunam]

Clearly this isn't based on one man's personal experiences. The problem is real and it is common place. Saying you've never seen any of it doesn't change that reality.

From personal experience, I have seen teachers being kicked down the stairs, teachers leaving classrooms with blood gashing from their head - teachers crying in the middle of class, some even quitting because of the emotional abuse they've had from kids.

Are we talking about you or the guy in the clip?

 

[joelseph]

How about we try reforming the school systems first?

 

[Kurtofan]

no

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Yes we should. There is now a generation of children being raised by teenage parents with no idea of the value of education. These parents want to be their childs 'friend' and will side with the child against the school at any opportunity. These parents are unable to correctly discipline their children. As the teachers are acting in loco parentis, they ought to be able to deal with the kids in any way they see fit as long as it is just and fair.

If we keep pussying around and pretending everyone is a delicate and beautiful snowflake then we'll end up in a very dark place.

Not to mention the stress the current situation places on teachers. Knowing a few teachers, I am shocked and appalled at the behaviour that they have to tolerate on a daily basis. The automatic presumption of guilt on the teacher in all disputes can fuck off too.

So what do we do about the parents who beat their kids already? What do we do about the parents that steal any money the kids bring home to feed their habit? What do we do about the parents who just dont give a fuck about their kids and let them live and die in the street?

Do you really think a small stick is gonna solve the problems with authority these kids have? Do you think a twig can prop up the authority of a system that has already failed the kids?

 

[AstroLad]

yes. school system should be punitive and not for rehabilitation that never works. waste of my tax $ to coddle these little fucks

 

[SmokyDave]

Are we talking about you or the guy in the clip?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-433024/One-teacher-attacked-day-Britain.html

Ignore the fact it's the mail, the stats are UK Government. Teachers being attacked is a BIG problem in the UK. Same for Nurses.

This topic would be a lot more useful if it was specific to a country. I have a feeling the UK and US school systems have very different problems and different discipline frameworks currently in place.

 

[Jasup]

Well yes, I support institutional child abuse.

Spoiler

Really, it's 2009 and we should know better - cane doesn't work

 

[Witchfinder General]

Caning, or any physical punishment, only responds to the problem but it doesn't fix it.

Want better behaved kids?

*Deep breath*

Pour way more money into public schools to hire better teachers, build better facilities so children have access to everything they need, make the ratio of students to teacher far smaller so each student get's a better, more personalised education, completely remove high stakes testing and devolution of schools, remove all business funding to schools so they stop becoming lessons on being good consumers rather than citizens, have a broad spectrum of subjects to teach, not just science, basic english, math and revisionist history, greater focus on hands-on learning and playtime with proper recesses and physical activities, re-introduce a focus on a progressive education, i.e., looking at social issues, minimise the focus on test scores and instead urge class participation and critical thinking over basic parroting.

Phew.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Caning, or any physical punishment, only responds to the problem but it doesn't fix it.

Want better behaved kids?

*Deep breath*

Pour way more money into public schools to hire better teachers, build better facilities so children have access to everything they need, make the ratio of students to teacher far smaller so each student get's a better, more personalised education, completely remove high stakes testing and devolution of schools, remove all business funding to schools so they stop becoming lessons on being good consumers rather than citizens, have a broad spectrum of subjects to teach, not just science, basic english, math and revisionist history, greater focus on hands-on learning and playtime with proper recesses and physical activities, re-introduce a focus on a progressive education, i.e., looking at social issues, minimise the focus on test scores and instead urge class participation and critical thinking over basic parroting.

Phew.

You forgot fix the broken homes these kids grow up in, create an environment outside of the school that the kids themselves believe they can succeed in, and remove the ever-present phantom of drug addiction that saps the communities themselves dry.

 

[BloodySinner]

Well yes, I support institutional child abuse.

Spoiler

Really, it's 2009 and we should know better - cane doesn't work

And what does work then?

 

[I <3 Memes]

Sounds like a really bad idea and you should feel bad for coming up with it.

The last school I went to in New Orleans still used a 1 inch thick paddle on kids. It was the kind with 1/2 inch round holes drilled in it.

I was in the Vice Principles office getting chewed out about something, can't remember what it was now, when this other big kid gets brought in. I don't know what he did but the VP was getting the paddle down off of the wall when I left the office.

I stroll around the corner from the office and into the cafeteria to sit with my friends for lunch. Not even 30 seconds later a scared looking girl comes running from the direction of the office over to a table of teachers and says something to them. They all get up and run to the office. Big kid walks out from the same direction a few seconds later and nonchalantly leans up against a wall in the cafeteria. Turns out the kid took the paddle from the VP and beat him into a coma with it. I don't know whether or not he was still in a coma but he was still in the hospital when I left N.O. 6 months later.

A cane isn't going to change anything. Parents being good parents will. You bring a cane into the school and all you are doing is bringing a weapon into school.

 

[Witchfinder General]

You forgot fix the broken homes these kids grow up in, create an environment outside of the school that the kids themselves believe they can succeed in, and remove the ever-present phantom of drug addiction that saps the communities themselves dry.

Ideally if what I suggested is implemented then those kids will grow up with a strong education and moral compass and won't create the broken homes that would ruin their kids.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

Fucking hell, no. Just no.

Smaller class sizes, more classroom support (Teaching assistants, etc), faster-paced lessons, suspension, exclusion, work-based learning, rewards for good behaviour, school security guards, instant-removal from classroom for swearing/violence, social intervention for kids with unstable parents, holding parents accountable if they don't try and cooperate with a behaviour plan (ie, at least attempting to ground them if the school has seen bad behaviour), working with law-enforcement when bad behaviour becomes criminal, and actually praising kids who are getting on with their work more than chastising those that aren't.

All of these are better areas to explore than beating up children to get them to behave. I mean, fucking hell, what kind of example is that setting for them?

If any adult needs to cause violence to a child in a classroom to get them on task, they should not be teaching. Goes against the entire current ethos of the profession.

(That is the UK profession, the QTS standards needed to qualify would exclude anyone who thought this was a sane response).

EDIT - Can I just ask, is there anybody who actually works as a Teacher or Teaching Assistant, who thinks this is a remotely good idea?

 

[industrian]

I teach in a middle school in Korea and I see kids getting beat by the teachers. I really don't care though, it's a different system. It's when the kids get a beat down by their father when they go home after getting beat by a teacher that concerns me.

Either way, in the UK (and the west as a whole) we've dug ourselves a nice little hole with our shovels of political correctness, health and safety overregulation, children having the highest priority legally, having parents that don't understand or care about their responsibilities, and with generally promoting a culture of anti-intellectualism through mass media. We're not going to be filling that hole we've dug anytime soon either. We might as well just bring back 2 years national service to at least give these chumps in our schools some hope of potential employment.

We don't need canes in schools, we need the Tossed Salad Man in schools!

IMMA READ, IMMA LEARN TO READ!

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Sounds like a really bad idea and you should feel bed for coming up with it.

The last school I went to in New Orleans still used a 1 inch thick paddle on kids. It was the kind with 1/2 inch round holes drilled in it.

I was in the Vice Principles office getting chewed out about something, can't remember what it was now, when this other big kid gets brought in. I don't know what he did but the VP was getting the paddle down off of the wall when I left the office.

I stroll around the corner from the office and into the cafeteria to sit with my friends for lunch. Not even 30 seconds later a scared looking girl comes running from the direction of the office over to a table of teachers and says something to them. They all get up and run to the office. Big kid walks out from the same direction a few seconds later and nonchalantly leans up against a wall in the cafeteria. Turns out the kid took the paddle from the VP and beat him into a coma with it. I don't know whether or not he was still in a coma but he was still in the hospital when I left N.O. 6 months later.

A cane isn't going to change anything. Parents being good parents will. You bring a cane into the school and all you are doing is bringing a weapon into school.

THIS.

THIS RIGHT HERE

 

[badcrumble]

I feel bad for all the people who think the only way to get kids to listen to their parents is with physical discipline. My parents never laid a hand on me, I was a great kid, and I'm quite successful as an adult. Same with my two little sisters. It helps that my mom has a doctorate in children's/educational psych, but it really all comes down to proper child-rearing. I do understand, though, that plenty of working families honestly don't have the time to provide the attentiveness that little kids honestly need - most day care centers honestly don't cut it, and are basically a lightly supervised room full of toys for way too much money. Going through toddlerhood with a German au pair (cheaper than day care, actually, at the time) and going to Montessori school from ages 2-4 helped me as well, no doubt.

I'm all in favor of providing much, much better public child-rearing resources - the good it would do for our society would vastly outweigh the costs. People don't like to hear it, but when both parents are working and when day care is so damn expensive, sometimes it does take a village to raise a child - at least when they're at that crucial formative young age.

 

[speedpop]

It starts in the home. In the 50's it was commonpalce for kids to fear their parents and figures of authority, but since the "Peace, Love" generation started having kids, and their kids starting having kids, they became more enamored with having their kids think they were cool parents than in actually raising responsible, respectful kids. I think it finally hit a crescendo in the mid-90's until now when parents started having their kids call their friends parents "Mr. Steve" versus "Mr. Smith."

Hell, I'm still not comfortable calling my parents friends by their first names and I'm almost in my mid-30's.

Your tag is grossly exaggerated good sir. The problem will forever and always be the parenting values and it's depressingly hilarious to see parents dismiss criticism because they can't face the fact that their child is fucked up directly because of them.

 

[industrian]

Ignore the fact it's the mail, the stats are UK Government. Teachers being attacked is a BIG problem in the UK. Same for Nurses.

I used to work for a local authority doing health and safety so let me tell you two things:

1) The worrying thing actually is that the recent perceived rise in violent attacks on teachers in Scotland (I'm not sure about the UK as a whole) is that teachers are now starting to report these crimes to their authorities and NOT because violent attacks are increasing.

2) 80-90% of all violent incidents concerning pupils attacking teaching staff come from students with learning disabilities that have been shoehorned into a public education system that simply cannot help them. We need to get those people out of our public schools and into specialised institutions that may be able to get them to do something useful with their lives. Right now they're just draining the system.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

... children having the highest priority legally,...

Actually the really funny part about this is that children have a huge legal, political, and emotional importance (WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!) but we give them jack shit funding. So you'll see politicians make huge promises about care to children in need only to have the systems go bankrupt and allow the kids to be abused so much that on the few occasions child services find children in danger, they just shove them in group homes that place them right back in danger.

 

[industrian]

Actually the really funny part about this is that children have a huge legal, political, and emotional importance (WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!) but we give them jack shit funding. So you'll see politicians make huge promises about care to children in need only to have the systems go bankrupt and allow the kids to be abused so much that on the few occasions child services find children in danger, they just shove them in group homes that place them right back in danger.

I meant more about the "Hey teacher, if you yell at us we'll tell our parents and The Sun that you're a paedophile" thing. But that works too.

 

[Jasup]

And what does work then?

Oh dear. You're looking at this from the discipline point of view ie. child wants to inherently misbehave and should therefore be put in its place using acts of discipline in order to learn/work etc etc. It doesn't work like that at all. It'll be useless for me to argue against physical punishment as the basis of the argument is wrong.

How about creating a stimulating learning environment instead of a boring one?

 

[Mama Robotnik]

2) 80-90% of all violent incidents concerning pupils attacking teaching staff come from students with learning disabilities that have been shoehorned into a public education system that simply cannot help them. We need to get those people out of our public schools and into specialised institutions that may be able to get them to do something useful with their lives. Right now they're just draining the system.

Yeah. Inclusion is a good idea, and works much of the time. There are notable exceptions, in which children with very-serious learning difficulties and mental illness are in schools as a token-gesture of inclusion, but are getting a substandard experience from it. Not to mention possibly becoming a danger to those around them, or having a detrimental effect on a classroom that doesn't have the resources to cater to their needs.

 

[WedgeX]

Hell no.

Wanting to beat children into learning submission is something that comes in generational waves, usually in some form of nostalgia towards a better past where kids respected their elders (in this specific case, teachers).

It's repeated every damn century, with people eventually coming to the conclusion that it's counterproductive to beat kids for supposed (...or real) disruption.

Fortunately, humanity as a whole is getting a better grasp on behavioral problems, learning disorders, etc. Go and pick up some modern, up to date behavior management material for teachers and you'll see that physical violence in the classroom will really only send us as a whole backwards.

 

[Joel Was Right]

2) 80-90% of all violent incidents concerning pupils attacking teaching staff come from students with learning disabilities that have been shoehorned into a public education system that simply cannot help them. We need to get those people out of our public schools and into specialised institutions that may be able to get them to do something useful with their lives. Right now they're just draining the system.

Where is your source for this? Or is it just based on personal experience?

Hell no.

Wanting to beat children into learning submission is something that comes in generational waves, usually in some form of nostalgia towards a better past where kids respected their elders (in this specific case, teachers).

It's repeated every damn century, with people eventually coming to the conclusion that it's counterproductive to beat kids for supposed (...or real) disruption.

Fortunately, humanity as a whole is getting a better grasp on behavioral problems, learning disorders, etc. Go and pick up some modern, up to date behavior management material for teachers and you'll see that physical violence in the classroom will really only send us as a whole backwards.

This has nothing to do with their learning. Rather the behaviour of those that threaten the teachers themselves.

 

[soundahfekz]

bring him in

 

[Fio]

As long as it's a girls only school and I'm their teacher, why not?

 

[red shoe paul]

Sure, in private schools where the parents know what is going on.

This. It'll never fly in public schools anymore.

 

[industrian]

Yeah. Inclusion is a good idea, and works much of the time. There are notable exceptions, in which children with very-serious learning difficulties and mental illness are in schools as a token-gesture of inclusion, but are getting a substandard experience from it. Not to mention possibly becoming a danger to those around them, or having a detrimental effect on a classroom that doesn't have the resources to cater to their needs.

There was a 5 year old kid with foetal alcohol syndrome in a class beating up kids and attacking teaching assistants on a nearly daily basis in the region where I worked. But still, if the government cannot give the kid the same standard of education as "normal" kids the kid's parents can sue. That is unless of course the government collects enough evidence to prove that it's impossible for the kid to obtain that level of education in his environment. Even then the "my son doesn't know any better, but you should be doing a better job!" argument comes into play.

 

[Jasup]

This has nothing to do with their learning. Rather the behaviour of those that threaten the teachers themselves.

So you beat them, and at the same time teach them that causing physical harm is fine and dandy.

 

[shinshero]

yes. let's let strangers beat our kids. makes perfect sense.

Or let our kids beat on strangers AM I RITE!

But seriosuly, Teachers need to be given a bit of leeway when it comes to defending themselves.

 

[Joel Was Right]

No one is trying to encourage beating kids in general and I fear far too many people are failing to see the context behind this. It is about respect; something which is non-existent for many of the new generation in the corridors of their own schools, towards their own teachers. Someone perfectly illustrated how we as a society in an attempt to bond closer with our children have become too protective over them and as a result failed in our responsibilities to parent them. Parents are not meant to be your friends, they are meant to be the folks that raise you not only with food, water and shelter but with character. A sense of authority is paramount to that development but sadly there is rarely any amount of respect being demanded in schools.

With child abuse so prevalent in the media, teachers feel like they are walking on shattered glass. It only takes one to cry foul and an ignorant parent to seriously undermine that teachers position and if not that, then you can be certain any sign of respect people had for her to be washed away when a child takes that off them.

Corporal punishment isn't likely to change a childs behaviour and it'd be dangerous to conclude otherwise, however when there is an ever growing serious lack of respect, tolerance or even understanding for teachers (both from parents and kids) then it all does it erode the education system and aide in the corrosive development of spoiled arrogant children.

The cane is a suggestion in trying to introduce an element of that needed sense of authority and respect.

Regardless where you stand, one thing is for sure and that's the current policy is failing and (at least in this country) we are seeing anti-social behaviour from kids on the rise when they leave school. I'm sorry but there are some things I cannot accept in life and one of them is a person committed to teaching young children breaking down in tears in the middle of class because they feel unsafe and unprotected from some fucker in the back row