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[arstal]

Why? You're saying you don't even use Steam, so how do you know it's so horrible?

Some people see no benefit in Steam's "features" and just don't want any DRM scheme on their computer, or at least no DRM that has to run every time you play.

For those people, Steam's biggest competitors (I don't consider D2D relevant anymore) are much better then Steam.

 

[chuckddd]

I'll take Steam over the cd check bullshit that was IV's copyright protection every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And if you're thinking of buying this via Steam and not getting a retail copy, you're making a mistake. MUST HAVE PHYSICAL MANUAL. And hopefully some other neat stuff, like a tech tree poster! There better be a collector's edition in addition to this "Digital Deluxe Edition" crap.

 

[epmode]

Some people see no benefit in Steam's "features" and just don't want any DRM scheme on their computer, or at least no DRM that has to run every time you play.

For those people, Steam's biggest competitors (I don't consider D2D relevant anymore) are much better then Steam.

Man, all this outrage over having to run a single computer process before launching a game. Infinite Whine Combo, indeed.

For the record, I still don't understand why Impulse is considered God's gift to paranoid gamers when you still have to run the program to patch a game. It's less invasive, but invasive nonetheless. (SORRY BRAD, <3<3<3 ELEMENTAL <3<3<3)

Anyway, I've always seen these DD DRM schemes as:
Would you rather have your computer run an additional process on top of the ~50 that are already running or would you rather have to dig out a new disc every time you want to play a different game?

As long as the thing isn't REQUIRED to dial home before each use, I'm happy.

 

[Zzoram]

I'll take Steam over the cd check bullshit that was IV's copyright protection every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And if you're thinking of buying this via Steam and not getting a retail copy, you're making a mistake. MUST HAVE PHYSICAL MANUAL. And hopefully some other neat stuff, like a tech tree poster! There better be a collector's edition in addition to this "Digital Deluxe Edition" crap.

I never once looked at the physical manual for Civilization IV. The in-game tech tree is pretty good, and CivFanatics is the best source of Civilization information online.

 

[arstal]

Man, all this outrage over having to run a single computer process before launching a game. Infinite Whine Combo, indeed.

For the record, I still don't understand why Impulse is considered God's gift to paranoid gamers when you still have to run the program to patch a game. It's less invasive, but invasive nonetheless. (SORRY BRAD, <3<3<3 ELEMENTAL <3<3<3)

Anyway, I've always seen these DD DRM schemes as:
Would you rather have your computer run an additional process on top of the ~50 that are already running or would you rather have to dig out a new disc every time you want to play a different game?

As long as the thing isn't REQUIRED to dial home before each use, I'm happy.

It's not an either or.

A disc check can be cracked out easily after a few days, and you have full functionality.

Some games don't force either one on you. Get outside of the Steam Defense Force and you'll see that.

BTW if you hated Civ IV's CD-check there were DD versions that had one (Impulse/Gamersgate) + cracking it out.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

This is how I see it:

1) If you use Steam even for Valve games then you have no reason to complain about Civ 5 or any other game that requires Steam. Why? YOU ARE ALREADY BUYING AND PLAYING GAMES THAT REQUIRE STEAM.

2) If you DON'T play Valve games or have any games on Steam then yes, I understand your frustration and concern that a must have game will be requiring you to do what you have yet to. That is completely understandable.

 

[arstal]

This is how I see it:

1) If you use Steam even for Valve games then you have no reason to complain about Civ 5 or any other game that requires Steam. Why? YOU ARE ALREADY BUYING AND PLAYING GAMES THAT REQUIRE STEAM.

2) If you DON'T play Valve games or have any games on Steam then yes, I understand your frustration and concern that a must have game will be requiring you to do what you have yet to. That is completely understandable.

A dislike of Steam gamers for the DRM, is understandable. I'll tolerate Steam for the one Valve game I have, but anything else I avoid Steam like the plague if there's a better version out there. Just because you buy something does not mean you like everything about it.

If Civ V had a nasty DRM that wasn't crackable on Impulse/GG, and Steam DRM only on Steam, I would buy Civ V, and get the Steam version. I'd gripe about the DRM though.

There is the monopoly argument against Steam. I can easily see a one platform future happening, and that would turn PC gaming into console gaming in terms of business model- which is not good for anyone here.

 

[epmode]

Some games don't force either one on you. Get outside of the Steam Defense Force and you'll see that.

Yeah, and I own quite a few of those games. But let's be frank, the big publishers won't stand for a DRM-free game, not to mention that those other no-disc-check DRM solutions are invariably worse than Steam.

And hell, when bashing Impulse/Gamersgate/whatever becomes as fashionable as Steam bashing, I'll defend those just the same.

 

[Twig]

back and forth and back and forth same shit over and over

 

[epmode]

I think we can make it to 1000.

 

[arstal]

Yeah, and I own quite a few of those games. But let's be frank, the big publishers won't stand for a DRM-free game, not to mention that those other no-disc-check DRM solutions are invariably worse than Steam.

And hell, when bashing Impulse/Gamersgate/whatever becomes as fashionable as Steam bashing, I'll defend those just the same.

I don't think Steam bashing is fashionable. The fact that a Steam Defense Force exists should prove that it isn't. As for the big publishers- if consumers said no to DRM and refused to buy games that had it, games wouldn't have DRM, or the publishers would go out of business/run to consoles, and the DRM-free publishers would become the big boys.

Simple business. Fact is consumers won't enforce their rights- which is why the US has such weak consumer protection laws.

Impulse bashing I see just as often- largely because lets face it- Brad Wardell makes himself a target at times.

 

[Twig]

Brad Wardell is a smarmy little fuck.

As is Gabe Newell.

Whatever.

But I see far more Steam bashing than Impulse bashing. Unless "I don't use Impulse because I like Steam" counts as bashing...

There's also nothing wrong with unobtrusive DRM. Would I prefer it not exist at all? Sure. But as long as it doesn't get in my way, then whatever.

We're leaps and bounds beyond where we were years ago. Thank god we don't have to keep track of a million fucking manuals and discs anymore.

 

[epmode]

As for the big publishers- if consumers said no to DRM and refused to buy games that had it, games wouldn't have DRM, or the publishers would go out of business/run to consoles, and the DRM-free publishers would become the big boys.

And as long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.

 

[Twig]

Yeah! Ponies!

I don't buy Activision (except Blizzard) or Ubisoft games because I don't like what they do. But I don't pretend for even a minute I'm having an effect. C'est la vie.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

And as long as we're dreaming, I'd like a pony.

No, he admits that big companies would simply not release PC games and just go straight to consoles. He apparently believes that Indie's would take over as the big honchos. Unfortunately he doesn't realize that big games from EA, Activision, Ubi, Valve, Sony, Blizzard, LucasArts, etc... are desired by PC gamers like crack for crack addicts. I would rather have DRM than not have those games at all.

 

[Twig]

I would rather have DRM than not have those games at all.

100% agreed.

 

[arstal]

No, he admits that big companies would simply not release PC games and just go straight to consoles. He apparently believes that Indie's would take over as the big honchos. Unfortunately he doesn't realize that big games from EA, Activision, Ubi, Valve, Sony, Blizzard, LucasArts, etc... are desired by PC gamers like crack for crack addicts. I would rather have DRM than not have those games at all.

I really don't think it's a case of "have DRM or not have those games at all" You still have console. The companies would abandon DRM if they believed it was unprofitable (I do think some genres need DRM, and some don't. Civ V is definitely in a genre where fans tend to have money and buy their game- so DRM is less needed then say MW2).

In the worst case scenario, the PC gamers who truly desired those games, would buy console in that case. If you can afford a PC, you can afford a console. Or the big companies would maximize profit by releasing without DRM, which is what I think would happen eventually. EA backed off the worst DRM due to the loss of sales in Spore.

One thing about big corporations: they are risk-averse. This is why they're reluctant to abandon DRM. They also have shareholders who are often ignorant about the business, see the piracy rate, and assume that piracy rates= lost sales. This is why intrusive DRM exists.

Impulse is a DRM also- but it's not an inconvenience at all to me. Everyone has a standard where DRM becomes excessive. My standard is probably lower then most people, who are happy with Steam DRM.

The indies would take over though, by default. They wouldn't leave, as they are making money now. The lack of supply on the PC market, would increase the demand for their stuff, and they'd make more money. It's possible that seeing the indies make more money would pull the big boys back in, without DRM.

This is fantasy world because the big boys aren't going away though- they make a profit just with low-quality ports from console to PC. That said, the big boys tend to make more money for unit on the console side, which is why they want to make the PC more like the console. Steam is just the vehicle for this. Impulse isn't as viable for this, somewhat a function of how it works, somewhat a function of the Impulse/GG clientele (which is a different market then Steam's).

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

The PC gamers who truly desired those games, would buy console in that case. If you can afford a PC, you can afford a console. Or the big companies would maximize profit by releasing without DRM.

One thing about big corporations: they are risk-averse. This is why they're reluctant to abandon DRM. They also have shareholders who are often ignorant about the business, see the piracy rate, and assume that piracy rates= lost sales. This is why intrusive DRM exists.

Impulse is a DRM also- but it's not an inconvenience at all to me. Everyone has a standard where DRM becomes excessive. My standard is probably lower then most people, who are happy with Steam DRM.

The indies would take over though, by default. They wouldn't leave, as they are making money now. The lack of supply on the PC market, would increase the demand for their stuff, and they'd make more money. It's possible that seeing the indies make more money would pull the big boys back in, without DRM.

This is fantasy world because the big boys aren't going away though- they make a profit just with low-quality ports from console to PC. That said, the big boys tend to make more money for unit on the console side, which is why they want to make the PC more like the console. Steam is just the vehicle for this. Impulse isn't as viable for this, somewhat a function of how it works, somewhat a function of the Impulse/GG clientele (which is a different market then Steam's).

You don't know if PC gamers would buy the console versions. Most PC gamers are PC gamers for the customization that the PC offers. Myself and others would rather have the PC games with DRM than not at all because the games themselves are whats important, at least to me.

 

[Stink]

I just loaded Steam earlier today, it showed that window, and then after 0%, it shockingly loaded the Steam updates! :lol

Sometimes it's bugged but in this case you may have just not given it enough time.

It auto quit out for me after a few seconds.

It worked ok a few hour later. Luckily I have some other games not from Steam.

 

[Ashitaka]

In the worst case scenario, the PC gamers who truly desired those games, would buy console in that case. If you can afford a PC, you can afford a console. Or the big companies would maximize profit by releasing without DRM, which is what I think would happen eventually. EA backed off the worst DRM due to the loss of sales in Spore.

Buying on console, where the games cost more and I can't use mods. Awesome. No, wait, I'd still prefer Steam to that, oops.

The indies would take over though, by default. They wouldn't leave, as they are making money now. The lack of supply on the PC market, would increase the demand for their stuff, and they'd make more money. It's possible that seeing the indies make more money would pull the big boys back in, without DRM.

The indies that are making large, multi-million dollar productions like Civ V? Wait, there aren't any of those because they're indies. They can't afford it. And the PC centric developers that are making the PC games I want to play make at best watered-down versions on console (Civ Rev, IL-2, etc).

This is fantasy world because the big boys aren't going away though- they make a profit just with low-quality ports from console to PC.

That's a great answer. Stop buying Steam games, the worst that can happen is that we'll get "low-quality ports from console to PC". Fantastic.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

A disc check can be cracked out easily after a few days, and you have full functionality.

Some games don't force either one on you. Get outside of the Steam Defense Force and you'll see that.

Okay, seriously, that's some pretty delusional thinking right there.

1) A disk check 'can' be cracked, but its not necessarily in a few days, and you're making yourself reliant on crackers to get around shitty to end-user annoying copy protection.

Most disk based checks are highly error prone, and return false positives for certain hardware or software combinations, often install unwanted and hidden system files that potentially mess up normal computer usage unrelated to that specific game (and in worst case scenarios can stop you being able to use your cd drive at all) and there is absolutely no guarantee that older disk based copy protection is in any way compatible with newer OSes / hardware configurations.

Also most games that use CD-check type copy protection that as a consumer you use cracks to get around usually mean you cant patch that game until whenever some cracking group gets around to updating their cracks to the new patch version.
For smaller and more niche games that can literally be never.

2) Most (and by a huge percentage) games do force some kind of DRM / copy protection system. From my perspective, the "intrusive steam drm" that people are rallying against is about as bad as entering a CD key for a game.

Actually, it's a bit better than that, because I only have to enter that CD key once, ever, and I have then 'claimed' that key with that game permanently as mine.

My disk breaks? No problem, I still have that game. I've had to double dip on Alpha Centauri and Diablo 2 because my original install CDs can't be properly read anymore (side note - thank you very much Blizzard for removing Cd checks for all of your older games in your last patches for them).

Someone steals my CD key because theyve used a keygen thats come up with my key? No problem, its tied to my account so unless they've stolen my entire Steam account somehow I still get to play whenever I want. I had to triple dip on the original HL, because someone had keygenned my retail keys and I would get 'your cd key is already in use' when I wanted to play online until WON went down and my key was tied to my steam account.

Steam might not be as intrusive as some copy protection systems (excluding a reliance on cracking groups stripping out copy protection - and really, if thats what youre relying on when comparing the intrusiveness of DRM then you're totally missing the point of what is and isn't an intrusive copy protection scheme; being forced to search warez sites and installing questionable applications from potentially less-than-trustworthy sources is not what I would consider particularly good practice for an end user) but a one time online activation is a lot fucking better than the majority of crap I've had to put up with as a long term PC gamer.

EDIT: and for the record, steam is about a million times less fucking intrusive than the DRM on the X360 is. Good luck playing your purchased XBLA / DLC on the refurbished console you were sent to replace the one that broke without an internet connection. Oh, there's a DRM tool you can use to migrate your licences once a year? Yeah, I can see why I should buy my games on the 360 instead of steam. Steam is much more annoying than that....

 

[Zzoram]

This game will eat my life when it comes out. For months I played Civ IV for 8 hour sessions daily.

 

[Zzoram]

Okay, seriously, that's some pretty delusional thinking right there.

1) A disk check 'can' be cracked, but its not necessarily in a few days, and you're making yourself reliant on crackers to get around shitty to end-user annoying copy protection.

Most disk based checks are highly error prone, and return false positives for certain hardware or software combinations, often install unwanted and hidden system files that potentially mess up normal computer usage unrelated to that specific game (and in worst case scenarios can stop you being able to use your cd drive at all) and there is absolutely no guarantee that older disk based copy protection is in any way compatible with newer OSes / hardware configurations.

Also most games that use CD-check type copy protection that as a consumer you use cracks to get around usually mean you cant patch that game until whenever some cracking group gets around to updating their cracks to the new patch version.
For smaller and more niche games that can literally be never.

2) Most (and by a huge percentage) games do force some kind of DRM / copy protection system. From my perspective, the "intrusive steam drm" that people are rallying against is about as bad as entering a CD key for a game.

Actually, it's a bit better than that, because I only have to enter that CD key once, ever, and I have then 'claimed' that key with that game permanently as mine.

My disk breaks? No problem, I still have that game. I've had to double dip on Alpha Centauri and Diablo 2 because my original install CDs can't be properly read anymore (side note - thank you very much Blizzard for removing Cd checks for all of your older games in your last patches for them).

Someone steals my CD key because theyve used a keygen thats come up with my key? No problem, its tied to my account so unless they've stolen my entire Steam account somehow I still get to play whenever I want. I had to triple dip on the original HL, because someone had keygenned my retail keys and I would get 'your cd key is already in use' when I wanted to play online until WON went down and my key was tied to my steam account.

Steam might not be as intrusive as some copy protection systems (excluding a reliance on cracking groups stripping out copy protection - and really, if thats what youre relying on when comparing the intrusiveness of DRM then you're totally missing the point of what is and isn't an intrusive copy protection scheme; being forced to search warez sites and installing questionable applications from potentially less-than-trustworthy sources is not what I would consider particularly good practice for an end user) but a one time online activation is a lot fucking better than the majority of crap I've had to put up with as a long term PC gamer.

EDIT: and for the record, steam is about a million times less fucking intrusive than the DRM on the X360 is. Good luck playing your purchased XBLA / DLC on the refurbished console you were sent to replace the one that broke without an internet connection. Oh, there's a DRM tool you can use to migrate your licences once a year? Yeah, I can see why I should buy my games on the 360 instead of steam. Steam is much more annoying than that....

Even if someone steals your Steam account, if you bought games on it with your credit card, and can prove your identity, you can get it back.

 

[Scipius]

Myself and others would rather have the PC games with DRM than not at all because the games themselves are whats important, at least to me.

But DRM can also negatively impact the freedoms inherent to the PC; mods are not always guaranteed to work with DD versions, plus with autopatching publishers can break existing mods. Add to that stuff like forced online verification and controller-focused inputs and it's clear publishers are already trying to limit what PC games are about.

As for myself, I have come to appreciate Steam and will tolerate its DRM, but an important factor in that is that Steam is privately owned by a quality game developer. One notices that all the better DD systems are similar; Steam, GamersGate, Impulse and Good Old Games are all owned by independent developers or small publishers. It's these kind of companies that I could trust to further the long-term interests of both gamers and developers.

I do not trust publicly traded companies to do the same. I consider the major publishers an evil in this industry, though regretably a necessary one. They are short-term focused middlemen, who will naturally be more willing to screw over gamers and developers if there's any profit in it. If there is to be a dominant DD system, I would greatly prefer it to be Steam rather than GameTap, D2D or worse, GFWL. The latter in particular would spell disaster for proper PC gaming.

 

[Zzoram]

But DRM can also negatively impact the freedoms inherent to the PC; mods are not always guaranteed to work with DD versions, plus with autopatching publishers can break existing mods. Add to that stuff like forced online verification and controller-focused inputs and it's clear publishers are already trying to limit what PC games are about.

As for myself, I have come to appreciate Steam and will tolerate its DRM, but an important factor in that is that Steam is privately owned by a quality game developer. One notices that all the better DD systems are similar; Steam, GamersGate, Impulse and Good Old Games are all owned by independent developers or small publishers. It's these kind of companies that I could trust to further the long-term interests of both gamers and developers.

I do not trust publicly traded companies to do the same. Valve puts out substantial free content for their games and constantly upgrades Steam with new features. I consider the major publishers an evil in this industry, though regretably a necessary one. They are short-term focused middlemen, who will naturally be more willing to screw over gamers and developers if there's any profit in it. If there is to be a dominant DD system, I would greatly prefer it to be Steam rather than GameTap, D2D or worse, GFWL. The latter in particular would spell disaster for proper PC gaming.

GFWL originally wanted to charge $50 to use voice chat. I would gladly accept a Valve monopoly over a Microsoft one, which is still a potential threat. If Windows 8 ships with a GFWL Storefront Application pre-installed, it would instantly become the biggest digital portal for PC games in the world. They would probably get sued for antitrust though.

 

[maniac-kun]

so steam is now a bad thing? i like steam

 

[Zzoram]

so steam is now a bad thing? i like steam

Steam is a great thing, and in many ways has saved PC gaming like Microsoft was promising but failed to follow through on.

But haters gotta hate.

 

[arstal]

But DRM can also negatively impact the freedoms inherent to the PC; mods are not always guaranteed to work with DD versions, plus with autopatching publishers can break existing mods. Add to that stuff like forced online verification and controller-focused inputs and it's clear publishers are already trying to limit what PC games are about.

As for myself, I have come to appreciate Steam and will tolerate its DRM, but an important factor in that is that Steam is privately owned by a quality game developer. One notices that all the better DD systems are similar; Steam, GamersGate, Impulse and Good Old Games are all owned by independent developers or small publishers. It's these kind of companies that I could trust to further the long-term interests of both gamers and developers.

I do not trust publicly traded companies to do the same. I consider the major publishers an evil in this industry, though regretably a necessary one. They are short-term focused middlemen, who will naturally be more willing to screw over gamers and developers if there's any profit in it. If there is to be a dominant DD system, I would greatly prefer it to be Steam rather than GameTap, D2D or worse, GFWL. The latter in particular would spell disaster for proper PC gaming.

What's to keep Valve from becoming evil? Some say Valve already is, I don't believe that. The only thing keeping Stardock from acting the same way as Valve is market share (Brad Wardell has admitted this). The only thing that guarantees we'll keep the current consumer-friendly trend in PC gaming prices is competition.

Competition is good, Monopolies aren't. One of the conditions of a true free market is competition. Capitalism does not mean you have a free market necessarily- market power inequality can end up causing conditions more inefficient then socialism.

so steam is now a bad thing? i like steam

Nothing wrong with that. We're better off with Steam then without it. I just don't want Steam to end up the only thing that matters. A Steam that has strong competition will be a better Steam then a Steam without it.

In the case of Civ games in particular- the way Steam normally does things will be horrible for things like mods. Oftentimes, when Civ IV patched, people waiting until their mods patched. Very few people play vanilla Civ. You play something like a Wolfshanze-derived mod, or FFH- you don't want to play vanilla Civ.

A forced update would irreversibly brick those mods until they got it working again. Plus they'd have to add in a way to keep you from modding in the DLC Civs- or everyone would do it, which should further restrict mods.

That's the problem I have with people lauding this and the one Valve future like many do on here.

I do think that Civ players are more willing to say no sale then Total War players, and much more willing then MW2 players. This decision will cost Take 2 a higher percentage of sales then MW2 lost due to this. Also add in the fact that the piracy ratios on strategy games is lower, but this may drive them to pirate in some cases, piracy may equal more lost sales here.

 

[noise36]

Civ V US Store Price = $49.99

Civ V Aus Store Price = $79.99

Guess I'll be waiting for a sale

This is why I hate steam.

Same game from the same server sent to different IP address costs $20USD more.

 

[Zzoram]

Competition is good, Monopolies aren't. One of the conditions of a true free market is competition. Capitalism does not mean you have a free market necessarily- market power inequality can end up causing conditions more inefficient then socialism.

Everyone forgets that Valve doesn't set prices, the publishers do. Publishers are still competing with each other, no matter the venue. The iTunes App Store has fierce software competition so prices are relatively low. Everything goes on sale and has demos in order to entice customers to buy their app over a competitor's. Steam wouldn't be any different if it ever became a monopoly (which it obviously won't, so it seems like a stupid point to argue about anyways).

 

[Facism]

gosh we've gotten to a point where simply having a disc in the drive is a massive annoyance. Spoilt much?

either way Steam is only a problem if you live in the 1980's and don't have an internet connection. I'd prefer not to have an online authentication and decryption on first run, but at least after that there's nothing more to worry about. Not a massive problem, even if it feels like PC gaming is becoming Valve gaming :lol

 

[Zzoram]

This is why I hate steam.

Same game from the same server sent to different IP address costs $20USD more.

That's got nothing to do with Steam. It's exactly the same at retail, because the PUBLISHERS SET THE PRICE.

 

[Kandrick]

That's got nothing to do with Steam. It's exactly the same at retail, because the PUBLISHERS SET THE PRICE.

Because it is the same as retail right ? You have to pay the people selling the games, people making them, people sending them to stores, deal with countries taxes, etc... oh wait you dont.


In this digital era, its stupid to set the price higher based on your IP.

 

[Durante]

so steam is now a bad thing? i like steam

A monopoly is a bad thing.

(No, it isn't one yet. But Steamworks is clearly a step in that direction. I for one don't want my PC to be the Steam console)

 

[noise36]

That's got nothing to do with Steam. It's exactly the same at retail, because the PUBLISHERS SET THE PRICE.

It has everything to do with steam.

Price discrimination at retail is due to physical distance between markets.

Price discrimination with digital distribution is setup by the provider, in this case steam.

The distributer only sets a higher price because steam is specifically setup to price guage different markets.

It’s treating your customers like idiots.

I can just go on any Asian online retailer and get the game at Asian retail prices (low)...unless of course steam blocks the keys? They have done it a few times now... Still only blaming the distributer?

 

[Scipius]

What's to keep Valve from becoming evil? Some say Valve already is, I don't believe that. The only thing keeping Stardock from acting the same way as Valve is market share (Brad Wardell has admitted this). The only thing that guarantees we'll keep the current consumer-friendly trend in PC gaming prices is competition.

Competition is good, Monopolies aren't. One of the conditions of a true free market is competition. Capitalism does not mean you have a free market necessarily- market power inequality can end up causing conditions more inefficient then socialism.

What would be the motivation for Valve becoming more "evil"? They are primarily a game developer, ergo gamers themselves. Their customers are fickle enough as it is, plus if they did follow the dark path, their competitors would be ready to pick up those who leave.

Steam will never be a monopoly, as Valve does not control anything other than their own games and Steam. Steamworks is the main worry in this context, as it could become a standard. Even then, there is clearly a demand for it. It will be interesting to see what Stardock can do with Reactor.

Strategically it is important that something like Steam gathers as much steam as possible. I greatly fear the day Microsoft will turn its evil eye on the PC DD market.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Even if someone steals your Steam account, if you bought games on it with your credit card, and can prove your identity, you can get it back.

Yeah, I know. Which is why that scenario is a non-issue to me. Open a support ticket, done.

GFWL originally wanted to charge $50 to use voice chat.

It wanted that just to play games online. That's bullshit, and they only tried that because somehow they're managing to sucker their console customers with that crap.

What's to keep Valve from becoming evil? Some say Valve already is, I don't believe that. The only thing keeping Stardock from acting the same way as Valve is market share (Brad Wardell has admitted this). The only thing that guarantees we'll keep the current consumer-friendly trend in PC gaming prices is competition.

Not Steams fault that their competitors don't want to sell games using Steamworks.
If Impulse was genuinely concerned with being competitive, they could go right ahead and sell Civ V at a cheaper price, and maybe get some synergy going with some Civ V / Galciv bundles.

If you're going to not sell products because they will get people looking at your competition and you have no way of beating that compeition and enticing people away from it, really, cry some moar.

Steamworks is a good thing for devs because its free, and its a good thing for consumers because it offers a better alternative to the many, many shitty DRM systems out there as well as useful features like auto-patching and integrated DLC support and friends lists.

Sure, it also works like a trojan horse to get people looking at Steam as a DD platform, but if GG / D2D / Impulse were doing the DD platform thing better than Steam were, they'd have no problem sending people there, because they'd be doing it better anyway, and they'd be getting more customers.

Whining about a competitor being anti-competitive with a product you are refusing to sell is not good business. Good business would be to get people to use what the competitor is giving away for free, but come back to you for the purchases.

In the case of Civ games in particular- the way Steam normally does things will be horrible for things like mods. Oftentimes, when Civ IV patched, people waiting until their mods patched. Very few people play vanilla Civ. You play something like a Wolfshanze-derived mod, or FFH- you don't want to play vanilla Civ.

A forced update would irreversibly brick those mods until they got it working again. Plus they'd have to add in a way to keep you from modding in the DLC Civs- or everyone would do it, which should further restrict mods.

Right click game -> properties -> do not update this game.

Because it is the same as retail right ? You have to pay the people selling the games, people making them, people sending them to stores, deal with countries taxes, etc... oh wait you dont.


In this digital era, its stupid to set the price higher based on your IP.

Publisher greed + pressure from bricks and mortar stores.

Things will change eventually, but this isn't a steam specific problem, its a problem with DD in general. As DD services get more influence over publishers, hopefully this will change.

 

[Mihos]

It has everything to do with steam.

Price discrimination at retail is due to physical distance between markets.

Price discrimination with digital distribution is setup by the provider, in this case steam.

This statment is 100% incorrect.

 

[Rubezh]

A dislike of Steam gamers for the DRM, is understandable. I'll tolerate Steam for the one Valve game I have, but anything else I avoid Steam like the plague if there's a better version out there. Just because you buy something does not mean you like everything about it.

If Civ V had a nasty DRM that wasn't crackable on Impulse/GG, and Steam DRM only on Steam, I would buy Civ V, and get the Steam version. I'd gripe about the DRM though.

There is the monopoly argument against Steam. I can easily see a one platform future happening, and that would turn PC gaming into console gaming in terms of business model- which is not good for anyone here.

What I find fascinating is that you somehow believe that just because Civ5, a single game, is going to use Steamworks, that this is the beginning of an armageddon-style monopoly where Valve control the entire PC market and are dictating terms to us poor gamers. You should do some research and compare how many games require Steam and how many games exist on the PC. You've successfully hijacked a thread where the focus was supposed to be on Civ5 and turned it into a ridiculous and completely hypothetical argument against Steam and Valve.

 

[maniac-kun]

A monopoly is a bad thing.

(No, it isn't one yet. But Steamworks is clearly a step in that direction. I for one don't want my PC to be the Steam console)

well then install linux and stop using windows if you hate monopols so much

 

[epmode]

well then install linux and stop using windows if you hate monopols so much

Steam's gonna be there too. Oh god oh man

 

[Pikelet]

It has everything to do with steam.

Price discrimination at retail is due to physical distance between markets.

Price discrimination with digital distribution is setup by the provider, in this case steam.

false, false and false. Price discrimination is, and has always been, because the publishers can get away with it. Its bullshit that they can charge around 100 US dollars for a 360 game here in aus whilst some wii games (which have the EXACT same physical distance between markets) are 30 dollars. You cannot blame steam for price gouging because they don't set the price!

 

[The Technomancer]

What's to keep Valve from becoming evil? Some say Valve already is, I don't believe that. The only thing keeping Stardock from acting the same way as Valve is market share (Brad Wardell has admitted this). The only thing that guarantees we'll keep the current consumer-friendly trend in PC gaming prices is competition.

Competition is good, Monopolies aren't. One of the conditions of a true free market is competition. Capitalism does not mean you have a free market necessarily- market power inequality can end up causing conditions more inefficient then socialism.

Right, and again, this is exactly why this is a good thing.....kind of. Competition is healthy. And other DD services need to compete with Steam. Steam is just doing things better than they are. If they don't like it, than they need to sit up, take note, figure out why, and get better. That's how a competitive market is supposed to work.

 

[Twig]

I really don't think it's a case of "have DRM or not have those games at all" You still have console.

wat

a) PC gaming is significantly different from console gaming.
b) Consoles are already heading in the direction of DRM that's arguably worse than Ubisoft's shit.

You can't even transfer your DSiWare purchases from DSi to DSi XL. Or from on Wii to another, without huge difficulty. XBL is almost as bad. PSN seems like it's probably the best in that regard.

Console DRM is tied to the hardware. Fuck that and fuck anyone who things it's better than utterly unobtrusive Steam DRM.

EA backed off the worst DRM due to the loss of sales in Spore.

And then they went right back in did it with another game.

 

[shintoki]

Steam is a great thing, and in many ways has saved PC gaming like Microsoft was promising but failed to follow through on.

Probably the best way to sum it up. Back from 2006 and down. XBL was the only unified service worth a shit. Mostly everything else was either game based, publisher based, or just shitty. Then 2007 rolled around and Steam got good. Right when MS was about to push XBL on PC. :lol

PC sorely needed organization for years, Steam finally offered that right when MS was about to do the same.

 

[I should be doing hw]

So, uh, any actual Civ V talk going on in here or?
I've never played a Civ game before, I'm getting IV soon hopefully and Colonization. Is the latter any good? reviews aren't bad for it.
Also, what's the goss about the changes in V (ignoring Steamworks)?

 

[The Technomancer]

So, uh, any actual Civ V talk going on in here or?
I've never played a Civ game before, I'm getting IV soon hopefully and Colonization. Is the latter any good? reviews aren't bad for it.
Also, what's the goss about the changes in V (ignoring Steamworks)?

Hex based grid system, no more unit stacking, ability to attack from more than one square away, no more religion system. Basicly, combat is being overhauled to be more strategic as opposed to "stack fifteen units and go in and blitz"
Resources are also being reworked, so that you are limited to the number of Iron-required units/improvements you can build by how much iron you actually have access to, etc

 

[Nabs]

So, uh, any actual Civ V talk going on in here or?
I've never played a Civ game before, I'm getting IV soon hopefully and Colonization. Is the latter any good? reviews aren't bad for it.
Also, what's the goss about the changes in V (ignoring Steamworks)?

civ iv is only 10 bucks on steam this weekend. comes w/ colonization/bts/warlord

 

[BobsRevenge]

civ iv is only 10 bucks on steam this weekend. comes w/ colonization/bts/warlord

It's also $10 on Impulse this weekend.

 

[Blizzard]

Right click game -> properties -> do not update this game.

I haven't really tried this since last year, but I kept trying to do this for Mirror's Edge since I was doing modding/custom maps and didn't want Steam overwriting anything. I could have sworn the setting kept changing itself back, but maybe that's fixed now or maybe I was mistaken.