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Sinterklaas is back in town!
- Thread starter Roi
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Goldrusher
Member
Just curious, how would these chocolate advertisements be received in the USA ?
Every year it's the same thing. Sinterklaas arrives in the Netherlands and across the ocean a number of people who've never heard of him before see a picture and become outraged.
Blackface originated in the US and is now considered taboo there. However, it is not seen as such elsewhere in the world, where blackface is more of a curiosity or a campy theatrical tradition. Zwarte Piet holds no where near the same cultural connotations as blackface does in the US. The Netherlands does in fact have a sizable black community and though some indeed object, it is very much a minority view.
It's pretty much only black Americans who object strongly, because they interpret all blackface in the US context.
Blackface originated in the US and is now considered taboo there. However, it is not seen as such elsewhere in the world, where blackface is more of a curiosity or a campy theatrical tradition. Zwarte Piet holds no where near the same cultural connotations as blackface does in the US. The Netherlands does in fact have a sizable black community and though some indeed object, it is very much a minority view.
It's pretty much only black Americans who object strongly, because they interpret all blackface in the US context.
msv said:
I said the concept of Black Pete was racist. He was originally a Black servant, I'd say it's safe to assume he was of African decent considering the time in which the folklore originated. I don't think it's racist in its' current state nor do I believe those who partake in the holiday are bigots. I simply believe it's incredibly insensitive.
Unlimited4s
Member
I don't remember those headlines in those ads. Did they really have those titles?Goldrusher said:Just curious, how would these chocolate advertisements be received in the USA ?
Hurricane_Chris
DDK
amazing.OnkelC said:
Why is it insensitive? It's good against racism, since the 'issue' is being shed in a good light. If you believe this stuff to be racist, you need to get out more. It's only insensitive if you believe it to be racist, and if you believe this harmless holiday to be racists, I'd say you're the one who's actually insensitive. Let people have their harmless fun. No one's being insulted. Nowhere are people bringing down people with black skin color.harSon said:
No it's insensitive if it offends people's sensibilities. My sensibilities are offended and they are offended by things like the Washington Redskins as well.msv said:
Hell the defense you're offering for this is the same as the defense for the Redskins as well as for stuff like the Confederate Flag.
Goldrusher
Member
Yep. In fact, the two posted are hotlinked from the official site.Unlimited4s said:
Arrowgigantic
Member
I can't believe nobody has posted Six to Eight Black Men yet.
Danielsan said:
Words and customs that are rooted in bigotry but lose their significance and original meaning are still insensitive and have no place in the 21st century let alone a board with a wide variety of demographics. A good example is the word Gay, often used as an adjective replacement for stupid, harmless enough and I'd imagine a lot of the people who use it are not homophobes. Doesn't change the fact that it's insensitive and wrong which is why it's against this forum's TOS. I understand that Black Pete/Zwarte Piet may be a harmless tradition in the Netherlands but Neogaf is filled with an assortment of demographics including many that may find this offensive.
Nope.Danielsan said:
1. Not everything offends me.
2. I realize that what offends people is what offends them and whether you agree with that or not makes absolutely no difference.
Black Piet is offensive to a very large number of people and there are no good arguments defending him "It's tradition!" is not a good argument.
Falch said:
Interesting
Scipus said:
Now please excuse my North American view of things but from my perspective the only reason black people wouldn't object to blackface, curly afros and gigantic shiny lips on men that were only recently retconned into not being slaves to St.Nicholas is that they are not terribly well integrated into the Dutch mainstream. I don't know this of course, but it would be my guess.
Thriller
Member
Im Dutch and I have grown up with Sinterklaas like every other Dutch person.
people who say the zwarte pieten are racist do not know their facts.
They are wearing spanish chimney cleaning suits that is why they are black.
It is the most enjoyable piece of tradition we have and if the idea of rainbowpieten comes through I'd cry my eyes out because then they change our culture for people who are too lazy to do any research
people who say the zwarte pieten are racist do not know their facts.
They are wearing spanish chimney cleaning suits that is why they are black.
It is the most enjoyable piece of tradition we have and if the idea of rainbowpieten comes through I'd cry my eyes out because then they change our culture for people who are too lazy to do any research
Falch said:
Of course no one in the Netherlands is offended, it's institutionalized racism. It's become an accepted part of your culture, so why would you be offended? In the rest of the world little black sambo in all of his forms is considered racist..
its just the Netherlands that sees nothing wrong with white people painting pronounced red lips on their face, wearing nappy headed whigs and painting their faces black.
OnkelC said:
The manji, flipped from the swastika, is still used as a good luck symbol in many countries. It existed long before the Nazi party and was chosen BECAUSE of the luck connotation.
Which means that the use of it is NOT rooted in racism, whereas black face was specifically created to depict black people.
Too lazy to research? Don't you know that they CHANGED the justification for the blackface to be more PC?Thriller said:
Thriller said:Im Dutch and I have grown up with Sinterklaas like every other Dutch person.
people who say the zwarte pieten are racist do not know their facts.
They are wearing spanish chimney cleaning suits that is why they are black.
It is the most enjoyable piece of tradition we have and if the idea of rainbowpieten comes through I'd cry my eyes out because then they change our culture for people who are too lazy to do any research
Please read the history of your own tradition. Black Pete became a "chimney sweep" to explain the black face in the 50's. Before that he was more or less St. Nicks slave. And again, if he is black from being a chimney sweep why the curly black wig and giant red lips?
Its little black sambo/golliwogg no matter how you try and justify it.
I, as a Dutch guy, am partially offended by Zwarte Piet, same way as I am offended by the candy/pastry/overly sweet junk 'negerzoen'. All of you who have never seen/heard/experienced Dutch people offended by this, either live in Brabant or Tukkerland.
Sinterklaas sucks anyways, Kerst is much awesomer!
Sinterklaas sucks anyways, Kerst is much awesomer!
Literally everything offends someone's sensibilities, there's no exception. In your view everything should be banned. It's people dressing up on a holiday, find a real problem please.Azih said:
Complaining about these little things undermines actual racism, therefore I deplore such complaining, it offends me. Actual racism, where people are being discriminated against, being physically and mentally hurt, put through anguish etc. This has nothing to do with such things.
The only reason you're offended is because you make an automatic connection with slavery, but that's your problem, there isn't an actual connection.
Thriller
Member
StoOgE said:
there are too many stories where zwarte pieten are from (and sinterklaas himself too)
spanish turkish spanish turkish who cares.
All the thousands of children waiting with their parents black white yellow red they are all happy.
All the children and parents are having a great day.
People who say its racist should just sit inside on the 5th of december and do something other than a decent dutch tradition.
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