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[Oblivion]

I should have phrased it better. It's not THE reason, but it's one of the reasons. And I don't mean just third-party-wise either. Sakurai must also know people throughout Nintendo pretty well to get all the assets from the various teams for all the characters. EAD, IntSys, etc.

Dude, that still wouldn't fly. Iwata is the friggin company president. I'm quite confident he's well aware of every major team inside Nintendo and any close partners. Not to mention that, due to the fact that he's president, there would be no need for Sakurai to go around asking people, since all Iwata would need to do is raise the friggin pimp hand.


Also, I don't think we have to worry too much about reviewers not treating Galaxy and SSBB fair. As long as they call it a fighting game, and give it 9s/high 8s, it's all good. Galaxy is a good candidate for GotY, but not Brawl, I'm afraid.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

I hope there is an extra mode where you can build up your specials like Shinku/Shin Hadouken in normal fighting games. That would be a really really fun option.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Except you can turn em off, so they aren't apart of the character's moveset like Shin Hadouken. They appear on screen randomly if they are going to be just like items which means they can spawn near one person and not the other so it's something that one person can easily get randomly while the other can't and it's not something like shin hadouken where you can build up your energy meter to a certain extent then use it.

BUT, its been shown that each Final Smash can have negative consequences for the attacker as well, its not a sure-win situation. In Tournament play, the participants will know how to counter a Final Smash, plus the one holding it has to use the right timing to do so.

If anything this adds a whole new layer of skill and complexity that should be embraced, not rejected. Right now Tournament play washes down Smash so much that it takes away many of the aspects that make Smash Bros unique and it bothers me, if its all gonna be so basic and "regular attacks only" then I might as well be playing games that FOCUS on gameplay that isnt item based (Street Fighter, Virtua, etc) One of the core aspects of ANY good fighting game is good/bad luck and how the opposing player deals with it, thats a very important skill in itself.

Unless you disagree, of course . I just represent part of the item loving fanbase

 

[GamerSoul]

Dude, that still wouldn't fly. Iwata is the friggin company president. I'm quite confident he's well aware of every major team inside Nintendo and any close partners. Not to mention that, due to the fact that he's president, there would be no need for Sakurai to go around asking people, since all Iwata would need to do is raise the friggin pimp hand.

Although, what you're saying is right I think Sakurai really does really need to ask the developers if he could use on of their characters becuz it shouldn't be just a simple "go ahead" than "ok, we'll see what we can do" talk with them. He would have to sit down with them and ask for certain attack ideas, new character designs that could work in Smash(like Aonuma did for him), song tracks, and how could he really make a certain character fit in Smash.

 

[MisterHero]

I hope there is an extra mode where you can build up your specials like Shinku/Shin Hadouken in normal fighting games. That would be a really really fun option.

There's no Shin Hadoken. There's Shinkuu Hadouken, Shin Shoryuken, and Denjin Hadouken.

KNOW YOUR SUPER ARTS

j/k

I like your idea. I don't really like that it's only once per game and that it spawns like an item. Maybe if it had a movement AI (like Mr. Saturn or Red Shell except that if it could fly around) it would be fun to chase after.

 

[perfectchaos007]

This topic is going to have over 1000 pages when its all said and done. thats 50000 posts!

 

[Raging Spaniard]

There's no Shin Hadoken. There's Shinkuu Hadouken, Shin Shoryuken, and Denjin Hadouken.

KNOW YOUR SUPER ARTS

j/k

Doi

Thats what I get for neglecting my 3rd strike Ryu and playing with Chun Li

 

[SuperAngelo64]

There's no Shin Hadoken. There's Shinkuu Hadouken, Shin Shoryuken, and Denjin Hadouken.

KNOW YOUR SUPER ARTS

j/k

I like your idea. I don't really like that it's only once per game and that it spawns like an item. Maybe if it had a movement AI (like Mr. Saturn or Red Shell except that if it could fly around) it would be fun to chase after.

I only said Shin because that's what the guy above me said and I thought maybe it was a newer move from one of the games I haven't played :[

 

[Haunted]

I hope you can't disable items this time around just to fuck with the 'competitive' players.

Of course, Sakurai is just too damn awesome, so he'll even cater to the scum that's misusing his game.

 

[Oblivion]

Although, what you're saying is right I think Sakurai really does really need to ask the developers if he could use on of their characters becuz it shouldn't be just a simple "go ahead" than "ok, we'll see what we can do" talk with them. He would have to sit down with them and ask for certain attack ideas, new character designs that could work in Smash(like Aonuma did for him), song tracks, and how could he really make a certain character fit in Smash.

Yes, but see, asking for help, and asking for permission are two different things.

 

[ant1532]

BUT, its been shown that each Final Smash can have negative consequences for the attacker as well, its not a sure-win situation. In Tournament play, the participants will know how to counter a Final Smash, plus the one holding it has to use the right timing to do so.

If anything this adds a whole new layer of skill and complexity that should be embraced, not rejected. Right now Tournament play washes down Smash so much that it takes away many of the aspects that make Smash Bros unique and it bothers me, if its all gonna be so basic and "regular attacks only" then I might as well be playing games that FOCUS on gameplay that isnt item based (Street Fighter, Virtua, etc) One of the core aspects of ANY good fighting game is good/bad luck and how the opposing player deals with it, thats a very important skill in itself.

Unless you disagree, of course . I just represent part of the item loving fanbase

The thing is, as Final Smash is still just an item, not part of the characters default movelist and just because it changes per character I don't think will let it pass in tourneys. I mean you don't see hammers or bombs in tournament's because they some cons too.

Don't get me wrong I love playing with items and i'm digging the final smash and can't wait to use it, but if I'm playing money matches or tourneys it's default movelist and that's it for me.(And yeah, preferably FD only, whatchya gunna do!? :lol) But that's just for mm's and tourneys, items is the shit with a lot of people, so funny.

 

[Firestorm]

Totally jumping to conclusions here, but I call bullshit if smash balls are not allowed on tournament play.

Thats like saying Ryu cant use a Shin Hadouken to win the match, its retarded.

I can understand no items to a certain extent, but Final Smashes seem to be tied directly into game balance and holding the character specific (ie: a weaker character might have a killer Final attack to compensate, hence tying into what strategy you use with said character)

Smash Balls are items. If they keep the whole random items spawn at random times in a match, Smash Balls will be one of those broken items that are definitely banned. And that's of course in the off chance that there isn't a blanket ban on items.

And your comment about how tournament play washes down smash and you'd rather play a different game is just completely stupid. I don't play SSBM over SFIII because of the items. I play it because of how different the gameplay is. I love the aerial focused combat of the SSB series and I find it feels a lot more free than other games. If you dislike that, then fine, that's what items are there for. Don't discredit the game with bullshit though.

I hope you can't disable items this time around just to fuck with the 'competitive' players.

Of course, Sakurai is just too damn awesome, so he'll even cater to the scum that's misusing his game.

Considering they're using the amount of customizable options as a bulletpoint on why you should buy the game (check the little insert that comes with Phantom Hourglass), I doubt they'll kill that option

Also, I turned off items long before I started playing competitively. I've always thought of them more as a boring distraction than a core gameplay element to be honest.

 

[ant1532]

Speaking of money matches, I just got 31 bucks from my friend playing SSB and melee today

US copy of Phantom Hourglass here i come! Play games to get games. I like.

 

[Jiggy]

The problem I see for final smashes is that it doesn't seem like there's nothing in play to make them work the way they should. If a Smash Ball spawns next to you when your opponent is at 174%, it's a wasted opportunity because they would have died from any normal attack. If it spawns next to you when your opponent is at 8%, it's still a wasted opportunity because they're not going to lose to that.

In many ways the random element for Smash Balls is much worse than it is for most other items, since most items are only on par with the level of damage and knockback that comes from standard attacks. Getting a Beam Sword or Fan or Fire Flower at an inopportune time isn't that big a deal, comparatively.

Considering they're using the amount of customizable options as a bulletpoint on why you should buy the game (check the little insert that comes with Phantom Hourglass)

Tell me more about this insert.

 

[Haunted]

Also, I turned off items long before I started playing competitively. I've always thought of them more as a boring distraction than a core gameplay element to be honest.

You are part of the problem. Every time someone turns off items in Melee, Sakurai cries.

 

[Zeed]

Tell me more about this insert.

Ahem...

Welcome to a brawl for the ages! This action-packed fighting game features a ridiculous number of characters that have appeared on Nintendo platforms, from Mario to Link to Pikachu...to Solid Snake! As they square off in famous locales drawn from the rich history of Nintendo, literally anything can happen...and usually does. With limitless customizing options, items and weapons that boggle the mind, and a wealth of modes, this game is what happens when Nintendo worlds collide!

 

[Firestorm]

All recent Nintendo published games come with a little thing that recommends three other games. The one for Phantom Hourglass has a card with Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and Custom Robo Arena.

The Smash thing says:

Welcome to a brawl for the ages! This action-packed fighting game features a ridiculous number of characters that have appeared on Nintendo platforms, from Mario to Link to Pikachu...to Solid Snake! As they square off in famous locales drawn from the rich history of Nintendo, literally anything can happen...and usually does. With limitless customizing options, items and weapons that boggle the mind, and a wealth of modes, this game is what happens when Nintendo wolds collide!

Edit: Godammit Zeed I had to type all that out >=(

 

[Firestorm]

You are part of the problem. Every time someone turns off items in Melee, Sakurai cries.

I guess that would be if Sakurai could cry. If people like Vin Disel and Chuck Norris can't cry, I highly doubt Sakurai can.

 

[Zeed]

Edit: Godammit Zeed I had to type all that out >=(

I did too. I just type faster, apparently.

 

[ant1532]

I hope you can't disable items this time around just to fuck with the 'competitive' players.

Of course, Sakurai is just too damn awesome, so he'll even cater to the scum that's misusing his game.

I like how people think competitive players I playing the game they think it wasn't supposed to be when Sakurai supports the competitive play and is even incorporating things from competitive play into brawl. And one of the first things he said about Brawl was he was keeping the Gamecube controller in for the hardcore players.

 

[Jiggy]

Cool, promotion for the options.
I'm surprised that particular insert went cross-platform for recommended games, though. Can't remember that happening with any other of the inserts I've seen. Also, among Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and Custom Robo Arena... well, yeah. One of those certainly is not like the others. >_>

 

[Firestorm]

I did too. I just type faster, apparently.

Something tells me if I refreshed the page when I got back to my computer yours was probably already there XD

 

[Crushed]

I guess that would be if Sakurai could cry. If people like Vin Disel and Chuck Norris can't cry, I highly doubt Sakurai can.

Chuck Norris and Vin Diesel cry every night.

Vin Diesel because all of his facts got stolen and converted into Chuck Norris facts before they hit the big time.

Chuck Norris because his own attempt at capitalizing on the jokes utterly ruined them, rendering them unfunny piles of overused fail within a week of acknowledging them.



Sakurai however, cannot cry. He collects tourney-fools' tears, and uses them to power his dream engine to the stars.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Smash Balls are items. If they keep the whole random items spawn at random times in a match, Smash Balls will be one of those broken items that are definitely banned. And that's of course in the off chance that there isn't a blanket ban on items.

And your comment about how tournament play washes down smash and you'd rather play a different game is just completely stupid. I don't play SSBM over SFIII because of the items. I play it because of how different the gameplay is. I love the aerial focused combat of the SSB series and I find it feels a lot more free than other games. If you dislike that, then fine, that's what items are there for. Don't discredit the game with bullshit though.

Yay and the personal attacks because of a difference of opinion commence!

In MY opinion, items and Final Smashes are core things that are part of Smash Bros BRAWL gameplay (theyre default for a reason), if you remove those, I am left with a more than competent fighter, sure, but not something I enjoy more than other top fighters, specially since so many peoples strategies revolve around their excellent use of items. I can sure as hell be wrong, or have the unpopular opinion, but I think its a valid point.

Mind you Im not ragging on tournament players. They would kill my ass with or without items and Final Smashes, but I do think that the use of items would even the stakes a little for other people.

And like I said before, what if the characters are balanced with their Final Smash in hand? Surely thats a possibility

 

[NotWii]

Also, I turned off items long before I started playing competitively. I've always thought of them more as a boring distraction than a core gameplay element to be honest.

You just cut out a part of the core gameplay element.

 

[Haunted]

Sakurai however, cannot cry. He collects tourney-fools' tears, and uses them to power his dream engine to the stars.

:lol favourite junior etc. etc.

I like how people think competitive players I playing the game they think it wasn't supposed to be when Sakurai supports the competitive play and is even incorporating things from competitive play into brawl. And one of the first things he said about Brawl was he was keeping the Gamecube controller in for the hardcore players.

'because I like that powerful rumble'.

Yeah, right. He was just trying not to hurt you guys by being honest. That's how awesome Sakurai is.

In MY opinion, items and Final Smashes are core things that are part of Smash Bros BRAWL gameplay (theyre default for a reason), if you remove those, I am left with a more than competent fighter, sure, but not something I enjoy more than other top fighters, specially since so many peoples strategies revolve around their excellent use of items. I can sure as hell be wrong, or have the unpopular opinion, but I think its a valid point.

100% agreed.

 

[CreatureX3]

I guess that would be if Sakurai could cry. If people like Vin Disel and Chuck Norris can't cry, I highly doubt Sakurai can.

Sakurai may very well be a robot. No human can be this perfect.

 

[Zeed]

You just cut out a part of the core gameplay element.

Oh God, here they come again...

The Pro-Item (Anti-Fun) Elitists are here to shit up another couple pages, bail out!!!

 

[Crushed]

The Pro-Item (Anti-Fun) Elitists are here to shit up another couple pages, bail out!!!

so turning off fun things that make things more fun is now fun

i like to nail pieces of wood into my eyes, that's fun too

 

[Jiggy]

so many peoples strategies revolve around their excellent use of items.

It's not possible to develop a strategy centering around items because items are a random element. You can't count on a melee item (Beam Sword, Lip's Stick, etc.) showing up when you need it, can't count on throwing items (Green Shell, Bob-omb) when you need them, can't count on the Poke Ball or Assist Trophy being what you want...
The only real strategy I can think of that could apply to items almost across the board is "throw everything."


Edit: It's possible to develop a short-term strategy as soon as an item shows up if that's what you meant, but it seemed like you were talking about general strategies for the whole match.

 

[Haunted]

Oh God, here they come again...

The Pro-Item (Anti-Fun) Elitists are here to shit up another couple pages, bail out!!!

bleh.

Items = fun.
No items = less fun.

The only real strategy I can think of that could apply to items almost across the board is "throw everything."

:O Don't steal my strategy! I came up with it all on my own while playing Melee.

 

[Insaniac]

There's no Shin Hadoken. There's Shinkuu Hadouken, Shin Shoryuken, and Denjin Hadouken.

KNOW YOUR SUPER ARTS

j/k

I like your idea. I don't really like that it's only once per game and that it spawns like an item. Maybe if it had a movement AI (like Mr. Saturn or Red Shell except that if it could fly around) it would be fun to chase after.

this is brawl, not quidditch

 

[Crushed]

The only real strategy I can think of that could apply to items almost across the board is "throw everything."

Strategy: GRAB ALL THE FUCKING POKEBALLS BEFORE ANYONE ELSE

 

[Jiggy]

:O Don't steal my strategy! I came up with it all on my own while playing Melee.

I came up with it while playing SSB.
But seriously, even when items are on, I almost never hang on to them to use as melee weapons... They just add a new level of projectile fighting to a match.

 

[MisterHero]

this is brawl, not quidditch

Damn JK Rowling and her magical world.

Strategy: GRAB ALL THE FUCKING POKEBALLS BEFORE ANYONE ELSE

This is another issue that needs to be fixed. The only item ANY of the CPUS ever go for is the Pokeballs!!! They don't grab other items unless they're right on top of them.

 

[Insaniac]

It's not possible to develop a strategy centering around items because items are a random element. You can't count on a melee item (Beam Sword, Lip's Stick, etc.) showing up when you need it, can't count on throwing items (Green Shell, Bob-omb) when you need them, can't count on the Poke Ball or Assist Trophy being what you want...
The only real strategy I can think of that could apply to items almost across the board is "throw everything."


Edit: It's possible to develop a short-term strategy as soon as an item shows up if that's what you meant, but it seemed like you were talking about general strategies for the whole match.

pretty true. Its really the uber-powerful items that can screw up a game, like the hammer. I mean if it spawns on one side of the map where a player happens to be, well, thats just lucky.

However, items on, and items off, have their own good points. With items on, you can enjoy a chaotic game of good times and fun. With items off, you're forced to work with the special moves of your choice character and develop a strategy based on your opponents character.

and with that, i'm staying far away from this subject.


Edit: While we're on the subject of throwing items, I do hope there's some item that has different throwing physics, it would be an items meant to be thrown and it'd act kinda like samus's smash forward + B

 

[Haunted]

Edit: It's possible to develop a short-term strategy as soon as an item shows up if that's what you meant, but it seemed like you were talking about general strategies for the whole match.

That's obviously what he meant. Reacting to the items that appear and incorporating them into your fighting style and strategy is a big part of Smash Brother's core gameplay. Flexibility and clever item usage is a vital skill, imo.

I came up with it while playing SSB.
But seriously, even when items are on, I almost never hang on to them to use as melee weapons... They just add a new level of projectile fighting to a match.

Which is absolutely fine. As long as they're not disabled, you can use them however you like.

 

[JCX]

Also, I turned off items long before I started playing competitively. I've always thought of them more as a boring distraction than a core gameplay element to be honest.

I turned off items before I ever did a tournament too. My friends that don' t play smash a lot sometimes get annoyed by it.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

It's not possible to develop a strategy centering around items because items are a random element. You can't count on a melee item (Beam Sword, Lip's Stick, etc.) showing up when you need it, can't count on throwing items (Green Shell, Bob-omb) when you need them, can't count on the Poke Ball or Assist Trophy being what you want...
The only real strategy I can think of that could apply to items almost across the board is "throw everything."


Edit: It's possible to develop a short-term strategy as soon as an item shows up if that's what you meant, but it seemed like you were talking about general strategies for the whole match.

Im talking about players that know EXACTLY what to do to get the best use of whatever item that shows up (in terms of timing, best places to use it, knowing how much damage they do, etc), like throwing the sword to an airborne opponent, placing the land mines in good spots, etc. Also the fact that people who are really good at countering can use that to their advantage by reversing the attack (like a thrown pokeball)

 

[Haunted]

Oh, and I absolutely liken the items in Smash Brothers to the items in games like Mario Kart or Mario Strikers. Nobody in their right mind would want to remove the items in those games as well, no?

Although I've had my fair share of

ing the blue shell in MK. >_<

 

[Zeed]

Guys maybe if we ignore them they'll go away.

 

[Jiggy]

Its really the uber-powerful items that can screw up a game, like the hammer.

Be glad Dr. Hadji's not around. (Or was it DrForester? I don't even know.) He owned me last time I called the hammer powerful due to my unfamiliarity with it... But anyway, yes, broken items like Starman (I think we can at least agree on that) or Heart Container... eesh.

That's obviously what he meant. Reacting to the items that appear and incorporating them into your fighting style and strategy is a big part of Smash Brother's core gameplay. Flexibility and clever item usage is a vital skill, imo.

I like flexibility as much as anyone, but the problem I see is this underlying assumption that people will always have the opportunity to react to items. They might also be the victim of having a Bob-omb or an exploding capsule spawn on top of them the moment they attack, or a Hammer could appear over them and they could pick it up right at a time when they needed to be able to double jump most.

 

[Crushed]

Guys maybe if we ignore them they'll go away.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc61/Zeed1000/noitems.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

Well, I [B]do[/B] kinda see your point Zeed.

It'd suck if you were having fun in Brawl, then all of a sudden a shitty Assist Trophy character like Lyn appears.

 

[MisterHero]

I like using melee items as boomerangs. Just throwing them and catching them and throwing them again is great fun.

The Lightning Bolt from MarioKart needs to be in Smash.

Oh, and a video from Sega with Sonic in a Smash-bros.-like scenario from:

http://www.pspfanboy.com/2007/10/05/sonic-rivals-2-adds-knockout-brawl-mode

 

[neoanarch]

Be glad Dr. Hadji's not around. (Or was it DrForester? I don't even know.) He owned me last time I called the hammer powerful due to my unfamiliarity with it... But anyway, yes, broken items like Starman (I think we can at least agree on that) or Heart Container... eesh.



I like flexibility as much as anyone, but the problem I see is this underlying assumption that people will always have the opportunity to react to items. They might also be the victim of having a Bob-omb or an exploding capsule spawn on top of them the moment they attack, or a Hammer could appear over them and they could pick it up right at a time when they needed to be able to double jump most.

those are all problem that can be overcome with strategy and skill.

 

[Haunted]

I like flexibility as much as anyone, but the problem I see is this underlying assumption that people will always have the opportunity to react to items. They might also be the victim of having a Bob-omb or an exploding capsule spawn on top of them the moment they attack, or a Hammer could appear over them and they could pick it up right at a time when they needed to be able to double jump most.

Absolutely. But luck is also a vital skill on the battlefield. Haven't you guys played Metal Gear Solid Halo 3?

 

[GamerSoul]

I've been playing Melee alot lately (working on the flow of my Peach and Sheik game for fun) and I always turn off items, put on 4 stocks and play on FINAL DES-oh wait I can't cuz my mem. card is broken :/

Anyways my Cuz and I usually play like that to test each other. Items get bland after awhile too.

 

[Zeed]

Well, I do kinda see your point Zeed.

It'd suck if you were having fun in Brawl, then all of a sudden a shitty Assist Trophy character like Lyn appears.

Who's Lyn?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I want a Spiked Shell from Mario Kart. Would race towards the player with the least amount of damage %, and hurt anyone in the way.

 

[Jiggy]

those are all problem that can be overcome with strategy and skill.

If two players are equally matched in terms of skill, the one who has to take damage less often from bombs appearing right in front of his/her attacks will win the match.