Pretty much, GOW is basically the definition an action-adventure. Beyond having melee-focused combat and combos I'm not sure how it ever became linked to character action. Unless Uncharted and modern Tomb Raider are "character action" too.
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So character action games are dead now, right?
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Pretty much, GOW is basically the definition an action-adventure. Beyond having melee-focused combat and combos I'm not sure how it ever became linked to character action. Unless Uncharted and modern Tomb Raider are "character action" too.
Yeah, I actually mostly think of 3.) when people mention Hack 'n' Slash titles.
As long as Platinum is around, I figure we'll continue getting them so it's not quite dead yet. It's not a good look though.
I always considered the Musou games to be the defacto Hack N Slash series/games tbh
Also one of these days, we have got to have a thread on action RPG/beat em up/action/hack n slash/character action game/action adventure etymology. Threads like these are just always getting bogged down just discussing naming conventions
I always considered the Musou games to be the defacto Hack N Slash series/games tbh
Also one of these days, we have got to have a thread on action RPG/beat em up/action/hack n slash/character action game/action adventure etymology. Threads like these are just always getting bogged down just discussing naming conventions
Bunch of mediocre very low budget licensed and soulless games? sure
but I'm talking about big games that have weight in this genre.
People already forgot about those games and they will never be in the center of discussions in the future H&S threads.
You're making me feel old, because I think more of arcade gauntlet than the PC derivatives of it like diablo ;p
Action RPG = Ys/Souls
Beat 'Em Up = Streets of Rage
Hack 'n Slash = God of War
Musou = Musou
Character Action = DMC/Ninja Gaiden
Action-Adventure = Zelda/Metroid
It's not hard to classify things, the issue is that games often take elements from multiple subgenres, so this stuff exists on a continuum.
matrix-cat
Member
DMC5's going to show up aaaaany conference now. Gamescom, TGS, PSX, VGX/A/whatever; I can feel it. Believe, NeoGAF. What else could Itsuno have been doing all these years? Daddy Vergil's going to rock our worlds.
I'm thinking we should be due for another Platinum/Activision collaboration announcement soon, too. Sure, TMNT was a stinker, but I'll gladly come back for another Kenji Saito game no matter the budget.
I'm thinking we should be due for another Platinum/Activision collaboration announcement soon, too. Sure, TMNT was a stinker, but I'll gladly come back for another Kenji Saito game no matter the budget.
Genre definitions will always be loose depending where you are from. For example here in the UK myself and everyone I knew referred to games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Tekken and so on as Beat em Ups. It wasn't until like 5 years ago when I started browsing gaming sites and forums that I first heard people refer to them as fighting games, and thought beat em ups were games like Yakuza and Streets of Rage instead.
And there was such thing as JRPG, WRPG, SRPG or whatever other abbreviation. It was just RPG.
And there was such thing as JRPG, WRPG, SRPG or whatever other abbreviation. It was just RPG.
you could easily make the argument that ninja gaiden is an action adventure( the game has a lot more in common with Zelda than it ever did with DMC), musou is a hackn slash (because it is...seriously Jesus people it's gauntlet in Japan), DMC is an action rpg, and God of war doesn't deserve its own genre just because it doesn't stack up as well in some departments compared to other games in its genre.
Please elaborate on why DMC/NG don't belong the same genre as GoW?
sixteen-bit
Member
Bayo 3 plsss
What I'm doing here is trying to set a sort of ur-example of each subgenre that other games can be compared to? Like, I wouldn't call NG an action-adventure game because it has no puzzles and progression isn't dependent on having the right item or ability, and I wouldn't call DMC an action RPG because there isn't really an equipment or level system.
But we all have our own definitions of things, I guess.
Because God of War is fundamentally shallow.
IronicSonic
Member
I support this
Triggerhappytel
Member
I guess it's predominantly because GoW has platforming and exploration while the likes of Bayonetta/DMC/Ninja Gaiden have very little of that.
Also this, yes.
wapplew
Member
Unless new DMC is first person and fully playable in PSVR.
did we play the same ninja gaiden
Not sure if I'd consider it a character action game per say but its a damn fine game that focuses on doing one thing and doing it well. Getting huge combo chains was amazing!
i'd say it's pretty subjective rather than location based, like people calling ryu "rai-oo". fwiw i'm from the uk and fighting games were always fighting games to everyone I knew. beatempups were streets of rage etc.
A game can belong to a genre and be shallow, weak, mediocre or straight shit product.
DMC has platforming and classic Resident Evil like exploration.
ALWAYS BELIEVE IN BAYONETTA.
But yeah, I do think that they're becoming less popular... but I'm sure something will revitalize the genre. If not, there will always be a dedicated fanbase for them.
I think Nier: Automata will be a great character action game, but I'm not so sure about Scalebound. We'll see. I don't think either of the games will bring back the genre from the dead, though. I think we're gonna have to wait for a new DMC or Bayonetta for that to happen. And that's if they bring back Bayo 1's mechanics.
But yeah, I do think that they're becoming less popular... but I'm sure something will revitalize the genre. If not, there will always be a dedicated fanbase for them.
I think Nier: Automata will be a great character action game, but I'm not so sure about Scalebound. We'll see. I don't think either of the games will bring back the genre from the dead, though. I think we're gonna have to wait for a new DMC or Bayonetta for that to happen. And that's if they bring back Bayo 1's mechanics.
The problem with the genre is that it doesn't align with current gaming tastes and fads at all. Gamers want their games FULL of content, more quests, open world, branching narrative, huge amount of unlockables, and so on. Just look how games are often judged these days, their playtime. If you tell someone a game has a playtime of about 6 - 8 hours like Metal Gear Rising they're going to blanch at the prospect of purchasing that game anywhere near $60.
They are in the style of older arcade games where its not how long that first and only play through is, its about playing through the same game over and over again so a shorter length actually benefits the style of game but spits in the eye of modern game sensibilities. Most people don't even finish single player and telling them to learn deep mechanics that take hours of practice to get decent at over multiple play through of the same or similar content over and over is not something a lot of the gaming population is into. This goes even more so because most character action games don't usually feature multiplayer of any kind aside from leaderboards and such so asking them to redo the same areas over and over again by themselves? Maybe if they can stream it online!
Anyways the character action genre is one of my favorites with many of my top games being from that genre. It, like the beat'em up genre, is seemingly falling out of favor just because of their inherent design qualities and their gameplay focus.
Character action games by definition have intricate, complex combat systems. That's sort of the whole point.
Ninja gaiden absolutely has puzzles and does block progression based on items.
DMC (especially 3)has a leveling system that's probably more in depth than Ys.
God of war is not fundamentally shallow. It is arbitrarily so. Gauntlet is fundamentally shallow. Dynasty warriors is fundamentally shallow. God of war knee caps its own mechanics in order to make a DMC base simple enough to spam (not mash, very important distinction) through despite the solid foundation of the game's systems.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
NieR maybe. Scalebound? No.
To be honest I haven't actually played most of these games and am just going off what other people say about them, if it isn't obvious at this point. Sorry lol.
Ni-Oh is definitely a classic-style character action game. It's literally Ninja Gaiden meets Dark Souls.
sogood.gif
inbarrenpraise
Banned
Grouping God Of War with games like DMC and Bayonetta would be like calling Star Fox a bullet hell shmup.
Trojan
Member
From a AAA perspective, it's low on the list of publisher priorities. But I imagine the void of character actions games will get filled by smaller dev teams, similar to the RTS, CRPG, and adventure genres. People just need to adjust to having smaller dev teams make these games because the money just isn't there for the big guys so they're not going to make many.
bobbychalkers
Member
I'm hoping indies take the reigns on the genre. Furi just came out to positive reception and although I haven't played it yet, Heart and Slash is getting some interesting comparisons to DMC.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
They're all different. One is a hack n slash, one is character action, one is a beat em up.
drotahorror
Banned
Newsflash, you can still be a mashing idiot (like me) in Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden and still beat the shit out of the game. I beat Bayonetta 1 on normal and hard just spamming normal combos, I never really bothered to learn all the crazy combos. When something works I just stick with the strategy, it doesn't make it boring or anything for me. I beat Ninja Gaiden Black and part 2 doing similar things. MGS Rising as well.
God of War is in the character action genre. The 'spectacle fighter' genre if you will. So is Castlevania LoS. Splatterhouse 2010.
YOU make the game shallow. All of these games have the tools there to be made as complicated as you want. Just because there isn't 10 min long combos of flying in the air in all of them doesn't make them not a character action game.
If you decide to just mash square in GoW, that's on you. If you think it's shallow because you decided not to switch it up, then that's your fault. Most games it's not necessary to switch up your strategy. Only one I really recall requiring it was The Wonderful 101. But other games just require good dodging or parrying which I'm very good at.
I love the genre, it's my 2nd favorite. I think a few combos is all I need to beat and enjoy the game. Doesn't make the game not part of the genre just because you decided to not make the fighting as complicated as it could have been. I still enjoy it doing basic shit.
God of War is in the character action genre. The 'spectacle fighter' genre if you will. So is Castlevania LoS. Splatterhouse 2010.
YOU make the game shallow. All of these games have the tools there to be made as complicated as you want. Just because there isn't 10 min long combos of flying in the air in all of them doesn't make them not a character action game.
If you decide to just mash square in GoW, that's on you. If you think it's shallow because you decided not to switch it up, then that's your fault. Most games it's not necessary to switch up your strategy. Only one I really recall requiring it was The Wonderful 101. But other games just require good dodging or parrying which I'm very good at.
I love the genre, it's my 2nd favorite. I think a few combos is all I need to beat and enjoy the game. Doesn't make the game not part of the genre just because you decided to not make the fighting as complicated as it could have been. I still enjoy it doing basic shit.
OP is egging companies on to stop producing character action so as to feel as an influential cog of the industry. I am Sigmund Freud, see you next time!
Fair enough. Maybe I'm in a bubble with the people i know. Personally always referred to God of War, Ninja Gaiden, DMC, Onimusha, Bayonetta and more all as Hack n Slash! I didn't know of the phrase Character Action until I joined GAF
I never heard that action character game is defined by the level of combat depth and I don't think I agree at all.
JonathanPower
Member
Bloodborne begs to differ.
it's more like callign both star fox and starblade rail shooters, or gran turismo and mario kart racing games.
You got me
Seven Force
Banned
Speak for yourself, Transformers was fucking legit, even in spite of very obviously being a budget title. I enjoy it just as much as the usual action mainstays (DMC, Bayo, NGB, etc.)
Korra and TMNT are ass though, yeah
CrazyArcadia
Member
I remember Kamiya saying in an interview that Bayonetta was concepted in a way which he remembers from Arcade heydays: You play it, but you then see someone else pulling off crazy combos without getting hit or creative combinations to beat a time. And then you want to get as good and continue to play it.
This is why fans love the genre:
There's always room for personal player improvement, you can play the best games in the genre almost infinitely. Style and 'story' only hook you in, but really 'playing' it after understanding the mechanics, unlocking more skills to really experiment and the like, that mostly happens on 2nd and 3rd and further replays of the game.
The first time with a Bayonetta or a Ninja Gaiden is a humble experience, you will die, you will fail, you will begin to grasp the basics. If you so choose to continue the game for subsequent playthroughs, you're in for a treat when the gameplay truly unfolds.
Unfortunately, that beloved aspect of the genre is also what leads to the general audience not enjoying it that much.
Some of my gaming friends played through the first Bayonetta once because hey, it's from the Devil May Cry creator! And they thought it wasn't that good and they'd rather play something else instead of playing it again (doesn't help that the style is a "hate or love" kinda affair. I love, but I also get why someone would hate it). Most people I know who played Ninja Gaiden gave up before finishing it once. God of War had the cinematic aspect, graphics, the violence and the - in comparison - more streamlined and simple fighting system which helped keeping a bigger audience while some of the fans of Japanese character action games disliked it for not featuring a similiar deep experience (while at no means a bad game, it doesn't scratch quite the same itch).
In a time where singleplayer games are a 'one and done' kinda thing for most people, it is difficult to create a game which is meant for replays. You can not really get both audiences. Of course you can try to throw higher budgets at the games and make them 20-30 hours per playthrough, but at the same time that is too long then for regular replays and the games will become repetitive and more difficult to keep them interesting. So currently you have to market a game which has a singleplayer lasting 10-15 hours for the first playthrough at regular retail price. Those games are still quite expensive to make, they are master class to develop and balance the gamplay - and it has to look good actually, flashy and fluid animation, ever-changing enemy and scenery designs that won't get boring after several playthroughs and look good to play and watch, epic super-sized bossfights are kind of a trope in the genre etc.. It's probably just not worth investing into most of the time for the niche audience still buying these games.
Sony probably saw it similiarily when they greenlit the new direction for God of War 4, which is a lot more on the pulse of the current zeitgeist whereas a "classic" God of War 4 might have felt outdated to a modern audience. We might get Ninja Gaiden 4, Devil May Cry 5 and Bayonetta 3, though, or so I hope. If Capcom can play their cards right with Devil May Cry 5 and gather a top-notch team for it, the DMC-franchise name might be big enough to pull in some new fans for the genre. But to be fair, I would love to see some new franchises in the genre as well (I still need to play Transformers :>).
(Same with Arcade shmups games actually. I remember legendary games in the 2D shooter genre getting bad bad reviews because "you're done in 40 minutes".)
This is why fans love the genre:
There's always room for personal player improvement, you can play the best games in the genre almost infinitely. Style and 'story' only hook you in, but really 'playing' it after understanding the mechanics, unlocking more skills to really experiment and the like, that mostly happens on 2nd and 3rd and further replays of the game.
The first time with a Bayonetta or a Ninja Gaiden is a humble experience, you will die, you will fail, you will begin to grasp the basics. If you so choose to continue the game for subsequent playthroughs, you're in for a treat when the gameplay truly unfolds.
Unfortunately, that beloved aspect of the genre is also what leads to the general audience not enjoying it that much.
Some of my gaming friends played through the first Bayonetta once because hey, it's from the Devil May Cry creator! And they thought it wasn't that good and they'd rather play something else instead of playing it again (doesn't help that the style is a "hate or love" kinda affair. I love, but I also get why someone would hate it). Most people I know who played Ninja Gaiden gave up before finishing it once. God of War had the cinematic aspect, graphics, the violence and the - in comparison - more streamlined and simple fighting system which helped keeping a bigger audience while some of the fans of Japanese character action games disliked it for not featuring a similiar deep experience (while at no means a bad game, it doesn't scratch quite the same itch).
In a time where singleplayer games are a 'one and done' kinda thing for most people, it is difficult to create a game which is meant for replays. You can not really get both audiences. Of course you can try to throw higher budgets at the games and make them 20-30 hours per playthrough, but at the same time that is too long then for regular replays and the games will become repetitive and more difficult to keep them interesting. So currently you have to market a game which has a singleplayer lasting 10-15 hours for the first playthrough at regular retail price. Those games are still quite expensive to make, they are master class to develop and balance the gamplay - and it has to look good actually, flashy and fluid animation, ever-changing enemy and scenery designs that won't get boring after several playthroughs and look good to play and watch, epic super-sized bossfights are kind of a trope in the genre etc.. It's probably just not worth investing into most of the time for the niche audience still buying these games.
Sony probably saw it similiarily when they greenlit the new direction for God of War 4, which is a lot more on the pulse of the current zeitgeist whereas a "classic" God of War 4 might have felt outdated to a modern audience. We might get Ninja Gaiden 4, Devil May Cry 5 and Bayonetta 3, though, or so I hope. If Capcom can play their cards right with Devil May Cry 5 and gather a top-notch team for it, the DMC-franchise name might be big enough to pull in some new fans for the genre. But to be fair, I would love to see some new franchises in the genre as well (I still need to play Transformers :>).
(Same with Arcade shmups games actually. I remember legendary games in the 2D shooter genre getting bad bad reviews because "you're done in 40 minutes".)
I think you were going with something condescending with your post but that's a pretty shit comparison
CoD is considerably more influential to FPSs than GOW was to character action games.
I think the poster is talking with regards to it being designed to be accessible not in terms of influence.
Jawmuncher
Member
Dinosaur games are dead too. So we need a character action dinosaur game to fix both.
That just seems like a near-needless definition created for the sole purpose of separating God of War from Japanese character action games