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So GAF..I think I'm turning Agnostic

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I think the whole "religions cause wars!" thing is usually taken as too literal a lot of times whenever it's brought up.

The problem is that religions (well, the monotheistic ones) all generally involve "whatever god does is right" as the baseline of the entire philosophy. Try to be like god, god will provide, god will reward you in the afterlife as long as you follow along, etc. And it's that viewpoint that makes it much easier to justify all sorts of crazy shit that would be much more difficult to follow along with otherwise. Now of course, it's not the only factor, but authoritarian thinking generally doesn't bring about positive outcomes. Monotheistic religions are like the ultimate example of encouraging authoritarian thinking, which is why some consider it a negative.

As others always mention, extreme nationalism, poverty, resources, etc. are also big factors. But that doesn't mean religious philosophies are always completely innocent. Lessening religious influence will not magically solve every problem, but it can solve some problems.
 
MercuryLS said:
Don't know all the details on the Inquisition, so I'm not going to comment on that. But much of the reason 9/11 happened was anger towards America for supporting the state of Israel, which in turn persecute Muslims. Before the forming of Israel, how many Muslims were committing terrorist attacks? It's easy to blame it on the religion, but that's not the reason why Islamic fundamentalist are acting the way they are nowadays. I'm not condoning this behaviour at all, I think its despicable to air your grievances by attacking innocent civilians but blindly blaming it on religion means that you're glossing over some key reasons why modern day Muslim terrorists exist.
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I am aware that many Muslims dislike the United States because of our blind support for Israel and that may have played some role in their motivation. Nonetheless, the 9/11 hijackers did what they did because they felt their faith compelled them to. The 9/11 guys were not like the old secular PLO or the old Arab communists.
 
Omar Ismail said:
Let's deconstruct zsg. The whereabouts of the author were well known and in a time with good records and as far as I know no records
of realy zombies exist in that authors life in the time and places he lived. Therefore he got his ideas from himself, divine guidance, or some kind of alternate universe experience. Divine guidance is unlikely since all prophetic messages revolve around believing in one God and doing good on Earth. Alternate dimension... Well if that actually happened I doubt he'd be writing about zombies same thing for seeing/experiencing the future. So that really leaves his own imagination.
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In what sense does this not apply to the Quran? Do you have records of any gods' existence? Clearly not, or you would be arguing from them. Does divine inspiration apply? No, that would be circular reasoning. So, I don't really see how this helps your point.
 
jay said:
So the reason animals don't generally recklessly murder others of their same kind is because of their culture?

I'd have guessed it's not evolutionarily plausible.
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Chimpanzees murder their own kind. Humans do as well. Murder is definitely evolutionarily plausible. This doesn't mean altruism isn't evolutionary plausible, either. The thing is, we are only naturally altruistic to a certain extent. When protecting close kin, we're extremely altruistic. When it comes to humans who we perceive as being very different from us, we are not so altruistic. Moreover, humanity's biological evolution is tied up closely with its cultural evolution. Most cultures have evolved in a way so that killing foreigners who are seen as "savages" or "heathens" or "barbarians" isn't such a bad thing. They've placed restrictions on killing and murdering, but when those restrictions are greatly loosened wihen it comes to uncultured aliens. Vanquishing such foreigners might even be glorified. Bottom line: We aren't born hardcore egalitarians. The blind egalitarianism characteristic of modern liberalism is a very recent development.
 
Omar Ismail said:
Kharvey and Sieb you guys still are not understanding my argument. Well Sieb you do somewhat though your counter arguments are pretty lame false equivalences.

It's quite easy to objectively show that it's quite unlikely that lucky charms are a proof of leprechauns and that the Zombie Survival Guide is proof of zombies.

Let's deconstruct zsg. The whereabouts of the author were well known and in a time with good records and as far as I know no records
of realy zombies exist in that authors life in the time and places he lived. Therefore he got his ideas from himself, divine guidance, or some kind of alternate universe experience. Divine guidance is unlikely since all prophetic messages revolve around believing in one God and doing good on Earth. Alternate dimension... Well if that actually happened I doubt he'd be writing about zombies same thing for seeing/experiencing the future. So that really leaves his own imagination.
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You are still approaching this as if it were our responsibility to prove the Quran is not evidence for god when I keep telling you it is exactly the opposite. The burden rests on you to prove it is. Last time you resorted to the classical circular reasoning tactic. Don't do that.
 
Zapages said:
Modern day terrorism live because of the following reasons, there are probably more... Here's a start.

1) Lack of jobs and opportunity in their countries.
2) Corrupt leaders in the Muslim world ie. money laundering etc.
3) Lack of education in the Muslim World
4) Corruption not just leaders, but everyday leaders.
5) Apathy towards everything in life.
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People don't strap bombs to their chests because they're apathetic.
 
freethought said:
People don't strap bombs to their chests because they're apathetic.
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I'm quite apathetic, and everyday I think to myself, "Today is the day that I'm going to strap a bomb to my chest and blow up a bunch of innocent people, because I really don't care either way."

It has nothing to do with martyrdom or indoctrination.
 
Religion has no moral authority. For all of its talk about an objective god, it is impossible to objectively evaluate what is good in god's eyes. How can one say that violence should not be used? Did god say so? How can we evaluate that revelation? Holy books offer no better distinction. It's filled with over the top, disproportionate violence. Most of the actual moral dictums either have nothing to do with real world morality (cleanliness) or are unhelpful (do not murder, but it's impossible to define murder in a religious context).

It is probably more accurate to call me an agnostic - I have no problem with accepting deism, even if that kind of god is nothing like we can imagine - but I have no problem being called an atheist either. I don't believe in any god because there is no overwhelming evidence for one (the teological argument is weak but probably the only decent one), and I'm willing to accept evidence if it comes along.
 
Mgoblue201 said:
Religion has no moral authority. For all of its talk about an objective god, it is impossible to objectively evaluate what is good in god's eyes. How can one say that violence should not be used? Did god say so? How can we evaluate that revelation? Holy books offer no better distinction. It's filled with over the top, disproportionate violence. Most of the actual moral dictums either have nothing to do with real world morality (cleanliness) or are unhelpful (do not murder, but it's impossible to define murder in a religious context).

It is probably more accurate to call me an agnostic - I have no problem with accepting deism, even if that kind of god is nothing like we can imagine - but I have no problem being called an atheist either. I don't believe in any god because there is no overwhelming evidence for one (the teological argument is weak but probably the only decent one), and I'm willing to accept evidence if it comes along.
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But there IS evidence for God. It's all around you.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
But there IS evidence for God. It's all around you.
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I suggest you head into the official religion thread.

We are currently disproving God with sperm, something that is all around us you know.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
But there IS evidence for God. It's all around you.
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2epj22d.jpg

i don't necessarily disagree or agree with you, but this gif. it was just too good for me to pass up :lol
 
Shanadeus said:
I suggest you head into the official religion thread.

We are currently disproving God with sperm, something that is all around us you know.
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Seriously.

Wash your hands after you touch anything. Sperm be everywhere.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
But there IS evidence for God. It's all around you.
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Around me? Like the universe? A universe that is tending toward useless energy? If I postulated a god from that, then I'd postulate some bumbling, incompetent god. Maybe Zeus or something. Or maybe some deistic god who just doesn't care.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
But there IS evidence for God. It's all around you.
Click to expand...
This argument is compelling as fuck.

Edit: I'm not sure you know what evidence means. Evidence is not "wow that thing is so complex/special/beautiful/difficult for my brain to visualize/comprehend so a divine being must have made it out of thin air!" That's what the ancient greeks/native americans/etc did thousands of years ago. Humans have gotten smarter since then.
 
Haven't any of you seen South Park?

When the world converts to atheism only, there are still major wars because the atheists can't agree what to call their organized group.

/thread.
 
Korey said:
This argument is compelling as fuck.

Edit: I'm not sure you know what evidence means.
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It means proof. And there is proof. After all, you can't have a painting without a painter. And you can't have a creation (this planet) without a creator.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
It means proof. And there is proof. After all, you can't have a painting without a painter. And you can't have a creation (this planet) without a creator.
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So what created the creator?
 
:lol @ whoompthereitis. We told you guys to stop feeding him.

And I don't know why we're discussing 9/11 in this thread. Radical Muslims weren't responsible for 9/11. The God responsible for that is the U.S. dollar.
 
Thunder Monkey said:
Then you're cool.

I just don't see how spunk will clean your hands.
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Well, if they were covered in feces to begin with, spunk tends to get them cleaner.

I wouldn't call it a thorough cleansing, but it's a step in the right direction.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
No one created the creator. He just was. Read the bible, it's all in there.
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God being the creator makes more sense than everything existing out of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING. Let's all praise mathematical improbabilities and supreme chance!? Or we could accept everything is the way it is thanks to God!

laugh now cry later, repent now or pay later, bitches.
 
They don't give out tags like they used to. Sure, he authenticates a religious loon, but that's not difficult.
 
-viper- said:
God being the creator makes more sense than everything existing out of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING. Let's all praise mathematical improbabilities and supreme chance!? Or we could accept everything is the way it is thanks to God!

laugh now cry later, repent now or pay later, bitches.
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From what crackhead reality are you pulling out the theory that everything came from nothing?
 
-viper- said:
God being the creator makes more sense than everything existing out of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING. Let's all praise mathematical improbabilities and supreme chance!? Or we could accept everything is the way it is thanks to God!

laugh now cry later, repent now or pay later, bitches.
Click to expand...

We don't know whether there was something before or not. We simply do not know. If you're conscious is telling you there was indeed something to have triggered the universe. Then you can still acknowledge this without using something like religion to dictate your life.
You can dispel religion on moral grounds ( for instance, for me, I couldn't accept the aspect of slavery in concubine form) this was something that a perfect and merciful and compassionate god, simply would not condone. It is clear that these sorts of principles were conjured by a man who wanted to change and rule his society ,nothing more.
 
-viper- said:
God being the creator makes more sense than everything existing out of ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOTHING. Let's all praise mathematical improbabilities and supreme chance!? Or we could accept everything is the way it is thanks to God!

laugh now cry later, repent now or pay later, bitches.
Click to expand...

"God of the gaps"...

Overcoming such 'logic' was the last hurdle I had to jump before I was able to fully purge my belief. After rejecting Christianity I still believed in God. This despite accepting evolution and the big bang as facts. I just couldn't fathom such a magficent event spawning from nothingness. The ingenuity of life on this planet being a random occurrence. It didn't make sense to me--God being responsible is the only thing that did at the time. Deism didn't last long, though, as I soon realized that the scope of human understanding & perception only extend so far. That the universe thrived 13+ billion years before we were ever a spec within it and it will continue to do so long after all remnants of our exsistence have faded. To postulate that we've figured it all out, much less based on our most primitive ideology, is extremely foolish.

There is nothing wrong with attempting to understand what we can and accept the rest as unknown.

Any way congrats Veidt. When you're born & raised in faith it's not easy to do what you're doing.
 
Whoompthereitis said:
No one created the creator. He just was. Read the bible, it's all in there.
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Ironically, if you were to read the bible according to biblical criticism, you'd know that god as a creator is a bunch of bogus.
 
Non-existant is not the same as nothing. There are all sorts of hypotheses about what came before the universe.
 
For several years, I've been unable to reconcile my own sense of ethics with that of some fundamental tenets of Islam. Whilst pursuing answers to my questions, I've come to realise that I found it increasingly difficult to identify with the fundamentalist, anti intellectual attitudes of many of the Muslims I've encountered. The cartoons of Muhammad debacle, for example, saw me lose my closest friend. Few want to critically discuss any sensitive issue. I cannot, for instance, accept that apostates should be sentenced to death or that God would take the life of every male first born to force a choice. It feels wrong and just being able to admit that is, sadly, remarkable. Although none of the above has skewered my view of the devout, I must admit that I now come to see myself as an agnostic.
 
Meus Renaissance said:
For several years, I've been unable to reconcile my own sense of ethics with that of some fundamental tenets of Islam. Whilst pursuing answers to my questions, I've come to realise that I found it increasingly difficult to identify with the fundamentalist, anti intellectual attitudes of many of the Muslims I've encountered. The cartoons of Muhammad debacle, for example, saw me lose my closest friend. Few want to critically discuss any sensitive issue. I cannot, for instance, accept that apostates should be sentenced to death or that God would take the life of every male first born to force a choice. It feels wrong and just being able to admit that is, sadly, remarkable. Although none of the above has skewered my view of the devout, I must admit that I now come to see myself as an agnostic.
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I enjoy hearing people's healthy reflection and attitudes unafraid of change.
And thanks for bumping thread, OP's a good read too and would never have seen it.
 
skinnyrattler said:
He put together a well thought out response and that's what you focused on? Have a little heart.


On topic, is agnostic the ones that doubt?
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Agnosticism generally claims it's impossible to know or prove that God exists (or doesn't). I think most people use it in the "doubting" sense of agnostic atheism though--"I don't know for sure, but I don't really believe God exists".
 
It's an interesting thread. It can be a hard change to make, and often there's little or no support from friends or family.

I hope anyone considering their faith makes a decision they can feel at peace with.

I totally didn't realize this thread was old as hell until it was pointed out.
 
Agnosticism is the notion that for a loose enough definition of god, anything's possible.

There might be a god! It doesn't answer prayers or do anything good for the world, but it might exist.
 
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