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So I tried waterboarding this weekend
- Thread starter Truant
- Start date
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Who cares if its torture? In the early days of the Mid East wars POW were being decapitated and we're worried if we tortured the guys who did it? whatever man....
hey if you want to play torture why dont you tie your friend down then pull off his fingernails with pliers, better yet break his legs, oh and maybe you could drive a nail in his leg then rip it out with a claw hammer
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/07/iraq.kidnapped.boy/index.html
then you guys can decide if waterboarding was torture
hey if you want to play torture why dont you tie your friend down then pull off his fingernails with pliers, better yet break his legs, oh and maybe you could drive a nail in his leg then rip it out with a claw hammer
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/07/iraq.kidnapped.boy/index.html
then you guys can decide if waterboarding was torture
WickedAngel
Banned
sn00zer said:
You don't win over the citizenry of a country that you are occupying by snapping people up and torturing them for information.
Your entire flow of logic is flawed.
APF said:
No more than being subjected to your opinions...
Souldriver
Member
I murdered a girl, but my neighbour once murdered and raped a girl. So you see, I'm in the clear here.sn00zer said:
So our tactics should not change based on who were fighting at the moment? You cant define morality during war. Is killing thousands of Iraqis a moral thing to do? No. Is sending people to fight and die in Iraq a moral thing to do? No. Is torture the moral thing to do? No. but its a war, and its much easier to say hurting one person is bad, its much harder to say killing thousands is bad when their is so much money invested in it.jay said:
polyh3dron
Banned
Never change APF.APF said:
Souldriver
Member
Well, I never thought something good would ever come out of all those SAW movies. I'm sure it gathers to the right audience too.Truant said:
My point at the end of all this, just to clear up that I am not a bigot. Is that I do not condone torture, I hate war, and I dont think we should be in Iraq. But to point out in the middle of a war that "Torture is wrong" while our soldiers are blowing peoples heads off and accidentally killing innocents just seems like we're avoiding a bigger issue.
EDIT: Im fairly interested in how news media changes the majority opinion. The media and people i general like to latch onto stories that have no real effect on them, high profile criminal cases, dead celebrities, crazed small political groups, Stories of morality (torture, abortion, stemcell research). It angers me that people latch onto these things while ignoring the bigger issues like industry closures, war, global economy. Not really an argument of any sort, just an observation
EDIT: Im fairly interested in how news media changes the majority opinion. The media and people i general like to latch onto stories that have no real effect on them, high profile criminal cases, dead celebrities, crazed small political groups, Stories of morality (torture, abortion, stemcell research). It angers me that people latch onto these things while ignoring the bigger issues like industry closures, war, global economy. Not really an argument of any sort, just an observation
Souldriver
Member
War is a dirty thing off course (lol) and moral often get thrown out of the window once shit hits the fan, but in theory it should just be people in 2 types of uniforms shooting at each other. Both camps "agree" to this war, know the risks, ... Those are the rules of warfare. Civilian people getting killed is never justified, it happens, often by mistake, but it is never justified. Just as torture is never justified. On top of that: torture in prison is often used on "suspects" of crimes. For all you know you're trying to get answers out of a person who doesn't have any.sn00zer said:
sn00zer said:
And focusing on the bigger issue ignores other important issues. We aren't a nation of 5 year olds (well that can be debated) we have the ability to focus on more than one issue at once, or at the very least, we should be able to focus on more than one issue at once.
Thats like saying, cancer kills far more people and is way more devastating than all the other diseases, so lets just focus on cancer and not bother with any other disease.
I agree with the theory aspect, yes this would be the arrangement in a gentleman's war. But along with that both sides should know that included in these "risks" are civilian deaths. And based on who is fighting who, somethings should not come as a surprise, such as the killing of PoWs (kidnapping and killing journalists was not unheard of before the Iraq war). But, when one side say, begins torturing, why would it be unexpected if the other side began doing this as well? That is war. One side makes a move, the other side does so in retaliation.Souldriver said:
But it was the US who began torturing. Oh no not the US?! The US is the greatest country on the planet, THEY WOULD NEVER?! Yes they would and they did , and thats war.
Souldriver
Member
No, if one of the sides starts going against "the rules" and starts killing civilians on purpose or torturing and killing POW's, they should get prosecuted for war crimes when the conflict itself ends. It should not mean that the other parties get a free pass to start blowing up hospitals or torturing POWs as well. That's twisted logic.sn00zer said:
I know your basic argument is "well it happens, so deal with it instead of being outraged by it", but with an attitude like that we can wrap humanity up right now.
We arent killing PoWs or blowing up hospitals. Thats where we can draw the line. We still try to keep it in the realm of their side and our side. We arent knowingly torturing people that arent combatants.Souldriver said:
EDIT: What Im saying is that people need to be outraged about the war itself. They need to be angered that soldiers are dieing, the must be infuriated by thousands of innocents dieing. They cant become nitpicky and spend their resources fixing small problems. Because even if torture is abolished, nothing about the war will change. And people spent all that time and money on the torture issue instead of trying to end the war that caused it.
OgTheClever
Member
Lol, I thought this thread would involve something similar to bodyboarding.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
sn00zer said:
:lol :lol
Oh wow, how does the sand taste?
Edit: I genuinely did think this thread would be about sports.
sn00zer said:
You are the only one here making that distinction. We were talking about the torture issue, not having a "war is wrong" debate. You are attempting to place a linked, but separate issue into the discussion of torture.
Souldriver
Member
Well, in your edit you're preaching for a higher moral standard than a lower one, which is something most sensible people will get behind.sn00zer said:
However, in the same post you are saying that "we can draw a line" that torture is okay, basically saying that killing people en masse is wrong but on a small scale is fine, and that we have to get our priorities straight: that "bad vs worse" means that we should do something about "worse" and give "bad" a free pass. Fact of the matter is that both these things are a form of "bad", and be outraged about both. If you only focus on one of them, your moral system is inconsistent (which in turn will hurt your moral authority with your enemies).
I'd also wager that 20 people agreeing to kill each other in a battle is less bad than someone being imprisoned and tortured because he's "suspect" to something. But that another debate.
Souldriver
Member
Why not?Mudkips said:
Megadragon15
Member
Of all the things to try on yourselves you and your friends chose waterboarding? Really? I guess you learned a valuable lessen, but still.
WickedAngel
Banned
Mudkips said:
Why would that be? Do you think that any of us are unaware of the fact that there are more severe methods of physical torture on the books?
A skilled practitioner of waterboarding can keep a victim alive indefinitely.
terithegreat
Neo Member
I'm pretty sure I can't think of anything more interesting (or important, really, given most American's obsession with the media). I'm focusing in media studies and public communication at college right now & it's amazing how easy it is for a lot of people to become fixated on stories like dead celebrities (Michael Jackson, anyone?) that have little to no importance in the real world (where things like industry closures, war & global economy exist). It's very fascinating stuff.
CultureClearance
Banned
K2Valor said:
Guantanamo Bay looks like a blast!
I gotta go there my next vacation. Those giant ticks in the background scary me, though. Better bring a novelty sized can of raid with me on my trip.
On a functional level, Kilcullen and Petraeus admit that Abu Ghraib created the greatest upsurge of violence in the aftermath of the invasion. You can't win the hearts and minds of those you liberate when you don't show basic human decency to prisoners.
There was a mass motivation study that began in '04 or so, I believe, done by the State Department on prisoners. What they found was that a vast majority of the prisoners fell into the categories of nativists or mercenaries. That is they were either brought into the country to fight for a financial incentive, or they had been personally affected by the occupation, whether in collateral damage/casualties or whatnot. A very minute percentage was described as jihadists, so, the point is, we know the fight we are in. It's not one purely of ideological hate; rather, counter-insurgency is a more complex matter that involves everyone being on the same page.
There was a mass motivation study that began in '04 or so, I believe, done by the State Department on prisoners. What they found was that a vast majority of the prisoners fell into the categories of nativists or mercenaries. That is they were either brought into the country to fight for a financial incentive, or they had been personally affected by the occupation, whether in collateral damage/casualties or whatnot. A very minute percentage was described as jihadists, so, the point is, we know the fight we are in. It's not one purely of ideological hate; rather, counter-insurgency is a more complex matter that involves everyone being on the same page.
sn00zer said:
People are outraged at the war itself but throwing everything into the same category doesn't help anything. I could argue unjust death is the real problem and you've got blinders on because you're fixated on war when I am against so much more.
Progress is usually made in small steps. If we cannot even agree we shouldn't torture captives good luck trying to end unnecessary war.
Puck said:
You know the surgery where they clip off the sides of your toenails to stop them from becoming ingrown? I got to experience one foot before the anesthetics kicked in. The doctor used some kind medical scissors to cut the edge off after cutting away a chunk of skin with a scalpel. It was the worst pain I've ever felt, come to think of it (the scissors... the scalpel was bearable). Torture involving finger/toenails is something I couldn't imagine.
radios shipping overview
Member
I can't believe there are so many people here unaware of the controversy over this method of torture. Do you watch the news?
RadioHeadAche
Member
Mudkips said:
What the hell are you talking about? Sure, it's not as severe as some methods during the Inquisition for example, but it's still inhumane treatment of a person.
speculawyer
Member
Truant said:
Damn . . . I wanna try it. But I don't think I know anyone that would do it to me.
speculawyer
Member
sn00zer said:
Who cares if it was rape? I wanted to fuck her.
I am Andrew Ryan and I'm here to ask you a question.
Is a man not entitled to waterboard oneself?
'No' says the man on Fox 'it belongs to the muslims.'
'No' says the man in the GAF 'it belongs to the Conservative.'
'No' says the man the other man on GAF it 'belongs to the Pro-Bush right-winger.'
I rejected those answers, instead I chose something different, I chose the moronic, I chose... waterboarding myself. Proving, a torture where the person would not fear the damage to ones health, where one would not be bound by petty morality, Where the foolish would not be constrained by the stupid! And with the the water over your face, waterboarding can be your torture as well.
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