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so, I've figured out why people hate DOA so much.

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
I skipped on DOA:Ultimate when it first came out because I wasnt playing that much Live at the time and that was the games main draw. I bought DOA4 about a week after it came out and have been playing it more or less non stop every since. Ive unlocked most of the costumes and am well on my way to unlocking the hidden stage (why do you have to do so much work to get a STAGE? Especially a stage that is literally a gigantic room with no walls?

Anyway, in my playtime with the game Ive noticed about 80% of the players NEVER try a reversal. They dont hang back and try and draw the opponent into attacking. They just press you the entire time. they hit you with one combo, then another and another. Nonstop. Everynow and then they will block you. or try to a throw.. but when they try the throw, they never do it at the end of a combo, they just try and do a standalone throw to a standing opponent...

I would imagine most of the people that play this game and disregard it are simply playing against the computer this way (which would actually be pretty effective for the first 5-6 enemies in single player before the computer turns into a reversal machine). When these people play their friends all they do is button smashing combos. So it turns into nothing but a combo fest. Then, these people get to the games bosses, which are horribly overpowered. The last thing you want to do against the boss (especially DOA4) is to press the hell out of it. The boss is faster, stronger and its reversals will literally take 2/3rds of your life. Plus, the thing will transport itself behind you when you start a combo and then just jack you from behind.

Dont get me wrong the game has its problems. The charachters track way to easily if you sidestep making it a next to useless tactic (except for the 2-3 charachters that dont track AT ALL.. which doesnt make sense.. make up your mind Team Ninja).. and juggle combos are way to easy to set up and powerfull (especially in a tag match, its possible with the right combo fo charachters to juggle combo a helpless opponent to death with ONE combo).

That aside, the game is pretty fun, pretty easy to learn the system. I think the games big problem is the combos are easy to pull off and they can do alot of damage and they look pretty impressive for their simplicity, so most people are content just to use a charachters combos instead. Compare Jackies lightning kick in VF which required good timing and memorization, versus Zacks Lightning kick in DOA which required smashing one button several times very quickly.

Ironically, the game is set up to punish button smashers, which is often the complaint leveled against the game. Anyone who is halfway decent online will break away from the preprogrammed combos for fear of being reversed to death. The game of cat and mouse between attacking, reversing and throws (a rock paper scissors mechanic where attacking beats throws, reversals beat attacks and throws beat reversal attempts), while simple forces a good deal of strategy.
 
LakeEarth said:
Reversals work well online? Or does lag give it trouble?

Lag makes it easier for some. Since the game is so much slower when lagging, you can react to attacks without guessing as much.
 
LakeEarth said:
Reversals work well online? Or does lag give it trouble?

unless the lag is REALLY bad reversals work pretty well. The window is pretty big allready in the game for them, so its easy enough to time. Ive been in some games where the lag was really bad and then you cant reverse anything.. I just get out of those games quickly and find a better one.
 
A lot of the problems you mentioned are why Hardcore fighting game fans hate DOA. Me personally I hate any fighter where the hits lack impact, DOA and VF fit the bill there.
 
rob the slob said:
Just set the life gauge all the way up and that should take care of the juggling combos taking to much health.

yeah, Ive done this and agree.. but I dont like juggle combos in fighting games at all. I dont like one person having an advantage over the other. The whole point of games is a good player can get out of any situation.. but not so with juggle combos.

One of two hits is fine, but some charachters can juggle you for 10+ hits. In tag mode I played a guy who literally got me airborne and then just juggled me to death several times by switching his charachters over and over.
 
K thanks. If I want to get good at 3D fighters, whats a good site/forum to go to? 2D fighters have SRK, I was wondering if there's a 3D equivalent.

I think 3rd Strike had the right ideas with juggles, have them, but set-up a hit limit (6) before the guy gets into an unjugglable state.
 
Compare Jackies lightning kick in VF which required good timing and memorization, versus Zacks Lightning kick in DOA which required smashing one button several times very quickly.

I don't hate the game, but that is one of my major problems with it. It's just far too easy to deliver the heavy moves in DOA. One button counters, one button specials, on and on and on. Most things in the game are far too simple. Especially coming from something like VF2 where you really had to work for your counters.
 
LakeEarth said:
K thanks. If I want to get good at 3D fighters, whats a good site/forum to go to? 2D fighters have SRK, I was wondering if there's a 3D equivalent.

I can point you to some VF websites. DOA doesnt have the following with the hardcore, because honestly once you explain the 4 different types of reversals (low, high, mid punch, mid kick) and how they work. then explain throws and why its important to varry your combos your pretty much done with DOA strategy. Then its a matter of getting your charachters moves down and figuring out how to draw your opponent into predictible situations.

DOA is a much simpler game to learn than VF.. Im not going to deny that.. but its not a mindless button smasher either.
 
karasu said:
I don't hate the game, but that is one of my major problems with it. It's just far too easy to deliver the heavy moves in DOA. One button counters, one button specials, on and on and on. Most things in the game are far too simple. Especially coming from something like VF2 where you really had to work for your counters.

yeah, dont get me wrong, VF is a MUCH better game. I love VF to death, but DOA is a very fun game that does have a good deal of strategy to it. Plus, its simplicity lends itself to online gaming.
 
StoOgE said:
I can point you to some VF websites. DOA doesnt have the following with the hardcore, because honestly once you explain the 4 different types of reversals (low, high, mid punch, mid kick) and how they work. then explain throws and why its important to varry your combos your pretty much done with DOA strategy. Then its a matter of getting your charachters moves down and figuring out how to draw your opponent into predictible situations.

DOA is a much simpler game to learn than VF.. Im not going to deny that.. but its not a mindless button smasher either.
then i guess people must be crazy to go in depth as they do at www.doalive.com
 
StoOgE said:
I can point you to some VF websites. DOA doesnt have the following with the hardcore, because honestly once you explain the 4 different types of reversals (low, high, mid punch, mid kick) and how they work. then explain throws and why its important to varry your combos your pretty much done with DOA strategy. Then its a matter of getting your charachters moves down and figuring out how to draw your opponent into predictible situations.
To be fair, that's not really true. There is still the discussion of stun types and their launch properties, different surfaces and how they affect stuns, back stuns and what can and can't be done with those, how to have an effective ground game (which is a bit tougher than it should be, imo), knowing what level attacks hit at (not always what they appear to hit at), andhow to use all this to coordinate an effective offense.
DOA is a much simpler game to learn than VF.. Im not going to deny that.. but its not a mindless button smasher either.
That's still pretty much true though. VF still has far more depth to it and I'd say it ultimately is the better fighter. But there are aspects to DoA that people don't really realise are there.
 
I could do reverals pretty successfully in every DOA game until DOA4. Now it's too hard to make trying worthwhile. DOA4 is the most broken DOA game of them all.
 
Unison said:
I could do reverals pretty successfully in every DOA game until DOA4. Now it's too hard to make trying worthwhile. DOA4 is the most broken DOA game of them all.
Reversals too effective = broken DOA.

Reversals not as effective = more broken DOA? [scratches head........sees blood]
 
Well, I can appreciate how DOA4's changes in design were implemented, but it really makes the gap between button mashers & skilled players that much bigger.

Now that I can't get the timing down exactly (I simply can't see moves being telegraphed quickly enough), I find that it's turned the game into even more of a button masher for me.
 
Unison said:
Well, I can appreciate how DOA4's changes in design were implemented, but it really makes the gap between button mashers & skilled players that much bigger.

Now that I can't get the timing down exactly (I simply can't see moves being telegraphed quickly enough), I find that it's turned the game into even more of a button masher for me.


you're not making any sense...

the window was shortened but the startup is still 0 frames, so unless you were just spamming holds way too early and people would just attack during you holding your hands out, even after your character let out an audible cue, there should be no issue with 'timing'
 
Unison said:
Well, I can appreciate how DOA4's changes in design were implemented, but it really makes the gap between button mashers & skilled players that much bigger.

Now that I can't get the timing down exactly (I simply can't see moves being telegraphed quickly enough), I find that it's turned the game into even more of a button masher for me.

umm.. you shouldnt be guessing what they are doing. You can reverse it even after the impact starts (in fact, this does more damage). You should know what kind of hit is coming. It sounds like you are pancking and just hitting the reverse button like crazy hoping to land one.
 
Seriously, I think I am just not quick enough to pull off the counters consistently when I play DOA4. I can do it in the other DOA games, but I do it sporadically in 4 and as a result I find myself playing way more aggressively.

I am quite sure I am not great at DOA4 (though I'm not god-awful... I unlocked Spartan pretty easily), I don't need to have that pointed out to me. All that I am saying is that the game seems to encourage me to play more like a button masher than any of the other DOA games did (and am just suggesting that's why so few people seem to use reversals online).
 
3 things that bother me about DOA4.

1. The lack of blocking points in combos. The game has enough high/low variations that it seems stupid to allow combos to continue to pound you unless you pretty much guess the reversal right.

2. Lack of any type of counter-attacking. With the exception of some moves, everything seems to chain together and offer no downtime after a powerful move. Blocking against some characters is pretty much useless (Ryu and his insane block push backs piss me off more then anything)

3. Simple punches and every other striking move have precedence over throws. Even if your hands grab the person before their fist gets close to you the punch will win. Unless the person is a blocking whore that doesn't even attack a person when they are 2 inches away, throws are useless.
 
I just realized that I hate 3D fighting games period.
I bought DOA 4, and beat it with everyone just to get their
endings, the costumes seem lame as hell this round so I am
not bothering getting them all, but I came to realize that
after getting all the endings I got really bored of DOA.

Just seeing it makes me not want to play it, but then
the revelation came to me this morning when I fired
up Marvel vs Capcom 2 on Dreamcast, the revelation
was I miss 2D gaming, and all this pent up rage of 3D
gaming killing 2D gaming is making me hate 3D gaming
slowly, starting with the fighting genre.

VF 5 = no thanks
Tekken series = Nope
DOA = been there done that don't care anymore.
Soul Calibur - No.

So like....... im like........ totally screwed!! aren't I?
 
Sp3eD said:
3. Simple punches and every other striking move have precedence over throws. Even if your hands grab the person before their fist gets close to you the punch will win. Unless the person is a blocking whore that doesn't even attack a person when they are 2 inches away, throws are useless.


very very very wrong. I do more damage with throws than anything else. Open up a combo and then throw a throw in the middle of it. say your doing a p, k, p combo. Try a p, k, throw. That way if the guy is trying to reverse your combo you will catch him in an attempted reversal and get a 50% bonus on the throws damage. Since throws allready do so much damage this can be devastating. Throws are meant to be the counter to a reversal, so use it when someone is trying to reverse you.
 
Anyway, in my playtime with the game Ive noticed about 80% of the players NEVER try a reversal. They dont hang back and try and draw the opponent into attacking. They just press you the entire time. they hit you with one combo, then another and another.

That's funny. I believe the complaint for every DOA up to this one was the exact opposite. Reversals too easy. Anyone can do them at anytime and change the course of the fight because of the big damage. Matches turn into poke fests.

But honestly, what you are seeing with the button mashing here is the case with all fighters. Whenever playing random people online or in the arcade, the vast majority will want to constantly attack and button mash because the result looks good on screen. And the DoA cpu DOES force you to constantly press the attack, so it's not surprising that people would transfer that strategy online. I don't think that's why people don't like it though.

I haven't had much time with it myself, but from what I've seen the usefulness of the reversal is weakened by the shorter window and the tons of variation you can do in combos. Game moves too fast to predict everything well, and there is so much variation in combos that good players should be able to mix it up enough to never really fear it. Most throws don't "catch" characters out of attacks, sidestepping sucks (meaning aiming characters into the environment sucks too), turtling opens yourself up to throws, and combos do the most damage. So even with good players...I'd expect straight up combos would be the best way to go. Not button mashing, but constantly pressing the attack and mixing up your attacks.

And I'm not sure what I think about that. When I get owned in VF, Tekken, SC, SF3, etc...I can usually see the mistake I made that led to my loss. Then I'd want to play again and try not to make the same mistakes. DoA4 is so quick and blazing combos that the outcome of fights seem less deliberate, and eventually I just want to stop. Again, haven't played it much though since I don't have a 360
 
The Faceless Master already linked to doalive.com. or .net. Whichever, that's your best bet for advanced strats and stuff.
 
Don't hate DOA so much as I find irritating: delusional DOA fanboys who argue that it is as deep as Tekken/VF. Or: who argue that depth doesn't matter.
 
^^^^
Depth doesn't matter. :P

LakeEarth said:
Reversals work well online? Or does lag give it trouble?

For all the shit DOA gets about being too simple, the less complicated game play DOES translate quite well to online bouts. Even with lag, you can still play like normal; it works very well. DOA4's online play is the best of all fighting games. The new PSO-like lobby with the avatars is stupid and no one ever seems to bother with it, but you can get right into the "virtual arcade" setting and watch the matches in progress and talk with others while waiting for your turn to play. I would love to see an online 2D fighter do this.

Nightmarecast25 said:
I just realized that I hate 3D fighting games period.
I bought DOA 4, and beat it with everyone just to get their
endings, the costumes seem lame as hell this round so I am
not bothering getting them all, but I came to realize that
after getting all the endings I got really bored of DOA.

It sounds like you'd get bored of any fighting game rather quickly if all you're doing is playing them to unlock stuff. The point of these games is the multiplayer; DOA4's main draw is its online play.
 
StoOgE said:
Ironically, the game is set up to punish button smashers, which is often the complaint leveled against the game. Anyone who is halfway decent online will break away from the preprogrammed combos for fear of being reversed to death. The game of cat and mouse between attacking, reversing and throws (a rock paper scissors mechanic where attacking beats throws, reversals beat attacks and throws beat reversal attempts), while simple forces a good deal of strategy.


Did you guys consider the idea that most of the Doa online players are probably not serious fighting game players? The fact that they are playing doa and online gives that away I think.

Well, if you don't think so, just turn on the mic and ask them next time.
 
Actually, I always found it boring BECAUSE of the reversals. They were so easy to pull off that you could literally just sit there and reverse damn near every attack. In addition, the moveset seemed so limited and the game ended up feeling repetitive as hell. The game is fun for a bit, but it becomes boring to me very quickly.
 
dark10x said:
Actually, I always found it boring BECAUSE of the reversals. They were so easy to pull off that you could literally just sit there and reverse damn near every attack. In addition, the moveset seemed so limited and the game ended up feeling repetitive as hell. The game is fun for a bit, but it becomes boring to me very quickly.

They did make the window for reversals shorter in DOA4, and characters have been given a number of new moves. Some of the characters feel very different to me now.
 
Sp3eD said:
3 things that bother me about DOA4.

1. The lack of blocking points in combos. The game has enough high/low variations that it seems stupid to allow combos to continue to pound you unless you pretty much guess the reversal right.
or stagger escape...
2. Lack of any type of counter-attacking. With the exception of some moves, everything seems to chain together and offer no downtime after a powerful move. Blocking against some characters is pretty much useless (Ryu and his insane block push backs piss me off more then anything)
most of ryu's moves that cause guard stun can be easily sidestepped...
3. Simple punches and every other striking move have precedence over throws. Even if your hands grab the person before their fist gets close to you the punch will win. Unless the person is a blocking whore that doesn't even attack a person when they are 2 inches away, throws are useless.
or use offensive holds...
 
Demigod Mac said:
Don't hate DOA so much as I find irritating: delusional DOA fanboys who argue that it is as deep as Tekken/VF. Or: who argue that depth doesn't matter.
the worst is people who aren't any good at any fighting game period and talk about depth like they actually know what they're saying and the reasoning behind it
 
The Faceless Master said:
you're not making any sense...

the window was shortened but the startup is still 0 frames, so unless you were just spamming holds way too early and people would just attack during you holding your hands out, even after your character let out an audible cue, there should be no issue with 'timing'

agreed

The Faceless Master said:
the worst is people who aren't any good at any fighting game period and talk about depth like they actually know what they're saying and the reasoning behind it

double agreed
 
Lyte Edge said:
^^^^
Depth doesn't matter. :P



For all the shit DOA gets about being too simple, the less complicated game play DOES translate quite well to online bouts. Even with lag, you can still play like normal; it works very well. DOA4's online play is the best of all fighting games. The new PSO-like lobby with the avatars is stupid and no one ever seems to bother with it, but you can get right into the "virtual arcade" setting and watch the matches in progress and talk with others while waiting for your turn to play. I would love to see an online 2D fighter do this.



It sounds like you'd get bored of any fighting game rather quickly if all you're doing is playing them to unlock stuff. The point of these games is the multiplayer; DOA4's main draw is its online play.
You would think so, but that is actually a thing that started when 3D gaming introduced unlockables and CG endings, but after that I am tapped out, when I can play Marvel vs Capcom 2 for hours and not get bored, I think 3D fighters are just boring these days, the last 3D fighter I had any long term fun with is the first Battle Arena Toshinden, damn!!!

So basically, a game with too many moves for me to master is just boring, and on top of that it seems that you sorta have to learn a good number of things before you get good enough to go online, and that is a super chore to me, so I guess all in all I am just a simple man who likes simple fighting games aka 2D fighting games, the fights were simple and fun, now they are short and complicated.

*sigh* Oh well.
 
In terms of "depth"...

Virtua Fighter 4 > Tekken 5 >> Soul Calibur 3 >>> Dead or Alive 4

In terms of being enjoyable for me...

Tekken 5 > Soul Calibur 3 >> Virtua Fighter 4 > Dead or Alive 4
 
The Faceless Master said:
or stagger escape...

Or how bout they just add block points to combos like every other fighting game?

Logical? Seems so. Not every hit in the fighting world is a juggle.
 
Sp3eD said:
Or how bout they just add block points to combos like every other fighting game?

Logical? Seems so. Not every hit in the fighting world is a juggle.
there are block points in quite a few strings as long as you aren't in critical hit status

logic would dictate you playing the other games that already fit your description of what you like
 
Somethingblah Cock said:
I found it a little amusing how you posted a link to a DOA community website with barely any discussion going on. :D
i could link you to some DOA sites with alot more "discussion" but a whole lot less useful information...

quality > quantity ... maybe?
 
The Faceless Master said:
i could link you to some DOA sites with alot more "discussion" but a whole lot less useful information...

quality > quantity ... maybe?


Is that really the best site? A shame it's almost empty.
 
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