DontBeThatGuy
Member
The latter are probably those that backed Bernie and are now voting for someone he would find abhorrent.
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So my friend supports Donald Trump
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The latter are probably those that backed Bernie and are now voting for someone he would find abhorrent.
Ahh, yes, the old: "intolerance of intolerance is the true crime".
And defense of Milo, a man who has spear-headed a hate movement built entirely on lies.
And "pro-choice is pro-abortion."
What solid argumentation you have. You haven't at all framed your arguments outside of what the general reality is. Not in the least.
Being pro-choice means you want millions of people to die, of course. It obviously doesn't mean that you simply support a woman's right to choose. Especially in situations where her or her child's life are in danger. And it's not like abortion rates are nowhere near as high as you think. Or that even with abortion being available that people aren't just getting them willy-nilly and that it's still a serious subject/concern for a young woman to make. Obviously PP is only about abortion and is forcing everyone to have them. It's not like PP only uses 3% of their services for abortion and outside of that offers reproductive healthcare for men and women. Or that they offer educational services or what have you for new or growing families. You're in no way insulting women by taking away their choice, insinuating that they just freely and without second thought get abortions without you trying to control them and coloring the issue in the very diluted way that you are.
And being against a man like Milo is also some huge crime now. I mean, obvi it has to do with him being gay, right? Not because, you know, he's a repentant slimeball who has crusaded the harassment of women, the lgbt community and racial minority men in the tech industry. It's also not like he also is nothing more than an opportunist who very shortly before GG talked on and on about how much he hates gamers and stereotyped them in the worst fashion possible. No, of course not. It obvi has everything to do with the man being gay. Please. You are defending a man who happily shat all over the gay community time and time again. Defending a man who has attacked all walks of life. And religious conservatives don't attack the gay community either? Where have you been living? Of course they do. And unlike your purposeful misattribution regarding why people criticize Milo, they do attack the gay community precisely for being gay.
Also, again, oh wow @ the "intolerance of intolerance is the true bigotry" argument. Just. Really. I can't even with that nonsense right now. You are free to believe the frankly bigoted things that you do. That doesn't mean others aren't allowed to react to that.
Thank you. I really don't know the political leanings of a lot of my friends because we didn't meet at political rallies. But if and when the subject comes up, we discuss it.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Great, you discussed it, and as you said, you still have racist-ass racist friends. Congrats.
Omegasquash
Member
In lots of cases I think it's not necessarily shutting them out, I think it's more choosing to not alienate entire swaths of other people. For example, I worked on campus as a peer-educator about rape. Basically instructing students that consent needs to be given, and sobriety needs to be taken heavily into account. I've seen the impact it has on people that I don't know, but have interacted with.
Folks that victim blame aren't people I can be friends with. I just can't do it, having seen what I've seen. I'll call out ignorance, however refusal to acknowledge or even doubling down on that ignorance puts me in a place where I'm not comfortable with that person, and certainly couldn't be friends with them. Sure, go and like, live. But their style ain't mine, and we definitely aren't friends.
That applies in lots of social situations. Cop defenders. Islamophobes. Marriage "traditionalists". That's why I think it's reasonable to go ahead and cut ties. Definitely challenge, but feel totally free to walk away.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I always find it strange when someone places them both together as someone they want to win th Presidency, when current espoused viewpoint wise, it would be difficult to people or more opposite ends of their policies.
"You're not being tolerant of my intolerance!"
What a weak argument. Judging one's belief system and viewpoints is perfectly valid. They are voluntary, chosen, and deliberate.
Judging one's skin color, nationality, gender, or sexual orientation is another thing entirely, and completely unacceptable.
If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
We see this line of logic every time there's a terrorist event involving a Muslim, where the fair and balanced thought leaders over on Fox News demand that Muslim leaders "condemn" said actions, as if it's somehow their responsibility to do so.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Please don't judge him.
MrRudiMentary
Member
The problem I have with these sorts of people isn't really their beliefs. I'm liberal but I know not to talk about politics with friends. OP's friend was literally openly shilling for Trump. Your friend obviously doesn't care about conflicting with your views OP, don't worry about conflicting with his.
I had a similar situation in the UK when we discovered one of our closest friends was a Conservative and was voting for Cameron's government. (Obviously nowhere near as bad as Trump.)
I just tried to avoid the subject, but my best friend - very stubborn, upfront and principled - couldn't let it go. Literally turned into a night-long argument about it, with my best friend storming out, and me sort of following, awkwardly.
Avoid the topic, but if that friend's around while you're hanging with many people, and you recently heard a particularly great anti-Trump factoid, drop it while laughing with your anti-Trump friends. Make it clear how stupid you all think his shit is.
We did that for a while and our friend gradually softened his standpoint and now I think he's no longer a Tory.
That's understandable in some measure.
I just tried to avoid the subject, but my best friend - very stubborn, upfront and principled - couldn't let it go. Literally turned into a night-long argument about it, with my best friend storming out, and me sort of following, awkwardly.
Avoid the topic, but if that friend's around while you're hanging with many people, and you recently heard a particularly great anti-Trump factoid, drop it while laughing with your anti-Trump friends. Make it clear how stupid you all think his shit is.
We did that for a while and our friend gradually softened his standpoint and now I think he's no longer a Tory.
That's understandable in some measure.
Crash Station
Member
What about the Islamophobes that hate the religion purely because of the marriage inequality it boasts worldwide?
Yeah, I can understand that. There are certainly people—I suspect like the ones you mention—whose political leanings define much of who they are as people... and as a result, their persona is largely inseparable from the issues at hand.
But certainly for political stuff, a mate sticking a Trump sticker on his Facebook profile picture and spouting some ignorant fluff in some comments isn't going to make me internally rage and delete all of a sudden.
Gun Animal
Member
to a lot of people their platforms don't even matter as much as their perceived status as outsiders, and as people who can't be bought. The idea being that even if they'd approach things from very different perspectives, they'd both be doing what they think is right rather than what their peers and corporate overlords want them to do.
I was actually interested in voting for Trump as a second choice for these reasons until I saw this shit on his twitter:
IMHO the best way to convince someone not to vote for trump, or at least to seperate the wheat from the chaff, is to show them this. Anyone who still wants to vote for Trump after seeing this is either being willfully ignorant or they actually subscribe to a racist ideology. OP should show this to his friend and see what happens.
If you're really trying to double-down on my use of the present tense in forming your argument against me, I don't know what to tell you.
I don't monitor their racist views in some sort of spreadsheet, if that's what you're asking.
Omegasquash
Member
Islamophobia in context. I have a disagreement with religion in general, but I'm not going to sit here and say all Muslims are bad or all Christians are bad.
Islamophobia here meaning "oh no, the guys that are brown skinned and who I think are all out to get me with the violence."
Unless you're trolling me. In which case...nicely done.
People like echo chambers. It makes them feel good to have their opinions constantly reinforced. It's human nature.
It's takes an actual backbone to be around people, even friends, who don't agree with you 100% of the time.
I couldn't be friends with someone who talked politics nonstop. Like, it was the only subject they talked about, or tried to make every conversation about politics. Wouldn't matter who they voted for.
It's takes an actual backbone to be around people, even friends, who don't agree with you 100% of the time.
I couldn't be friends with someone who talked politics nonstop. Like, it was the only subject they talked about, or tried to make every conversation about politics. Wouldn't matter who they voted for.
Same here, I have a few Conservative friends I don't agree with their political leanings but we've been friends since we were 12 and have been through a lot together. Some of my friends are religious, again I do not try and sway their beliefs, we are free to beleive and support what we want, as long as my friends don't rape, beat, murder, have racist views or hurl abuse at people I see no reason to cut ties with them.
Crash Station
Member
I just think Islamophobia is a poor term. Analyzing and being critical of the religion and the beliefs of those that hold it worldwide should not be comparable to something like homophobia which actually has a human or group of humans as a target and not an ideology. I guess Muslimophobia doesn't roll off the tongue as well though.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I don't have an issue with being critical of religion(and nothing singled out), as I always have been, but there's being critical, and then there's rhetoric that nurtures fear and hate, that plants seeds that grow into something more extreme and actually plausible to a great many, as was shown in the SC polls that had an overwhelming of Trump supporters in favor of banning Muslims(among other garbage in that group). That's all a dangerous road to be going down, and a very worrying one for those in the religion in this country(and out, really) and that's what I have a problem with.
cpp_is_king
Member
Regarding his stance on immigration, it's honestly very simple and black and white for some people. Breaking the law should not grant you amnesty from the law. I mean when you phrase it that way it's kind of obvious right? "We have these laws on the books, but once you break them, you're immune from the punishment". It makes no sense right? Either shit or get off the pot. If you want an open border then open the border, and say anyone can come here. Otherwise, if you're going to have alws, they should be enforced. There's no need to look deeper than this for many people, and it's not seen as racist either because it simply discussing the enforcement of an existing law. Not against a particular race, but against all violators of the law, which due to geographical factors beyond any politicians control, happens to consist predominantly of one group of people. But the policy doesn't target the people, it targets the violators of the law, whomever they may be.
I'm sure there are many people who hate Mexicans and want to see them all go back to Mexico. Many of those people probably support Trump. I am not one of those people, although I agree with Trump on immigration for the most part.[1] You (and many others) view his ideas as biased against immigrants from Latin America. I view the current situation as biased against immigrants from everywhere else. Why should Africans, or Chinese, or Vietnamese, or Burmese, or Ukranian, or Filipino, or anyone else for that matter be at an unfair disadvantage? It takes 10+ years to go through the process legally, and these people are waiting patiently enduring shit conditions in their own countries, while some people hop the border and the government turns a blind eye. Why should our policy and enforcement of the existing laws unfairly favor a particular group of people?
Everyone deserves an equal opportunity to come here, and they all should do it under the same system. This isn't treating mexicans or guatemalans or anyone else from Latin America unfairly, it's treating the rest of the world fairly.
Then there is the issue of crime. I'm not going to go all the way like Trump did and say that they're all rapists and murderers, but surely we can agree that within any community of people (including legal immigrants, and even citizens(!)) there will be crime. And that it is easier to tackle the problem of crime among groups of people who are documented, as opposed to undocumented. So it is in everyone's best interest to get everyone documented. Sure, you can just issue them ID cards like many politicians on the left support. But, from my point of view, this goes back to my first point (breaking the law should not grant you amnesty from the law).
[1] - Except for the part where he wants to revoke birthright citizenship, since that was by definition citizenship obtained through means that are/were legal. People who obtained birthright citizenship legally (using whatever laws constituted "legally" at the time the citizenship was obtained) should keep it in my opinion.
This is the thing, really. It's the human condition.
1. The more your brain takes a stance, e.g. the more you argue with someone, the more stubborn you get. This is literally how your brain operates. You get less and less empathetic the more you argue. The less you're open to new ideas.
2. Survival happens through normalisation to safe behaviour. We find a safe way of doing something, or find a thing which keeps us alive? Keep doing that. Keep going.
The problem is, it applies to cultures and beliefs, too. The path of least resistance for your survival-obsessed mind is to choose the easiest (simplest) way to live in a culture, what to believe in, and stick with it. Normalise to the old fashioned way of thinking, the way that has worked the longest. To our contrarian, competitive minds, this is usually to stick to the most simplistic, black and white arguments.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Don't forget that other retweet of someone loudly and proudly called WhiteGenocide. I don't care if someone SOMEHOW didn't notice, we're talking about the potential POTUS here, and yet another red flag.
Islamaphobia has nothing to do with brown skin. There's no Hinduphobia.
I have a hard time considering family members who support Trump family, let alone friends (doesn't help that I hate a vast majority of my family).
I never understand these questions
I did not become friends with my friends due to their views on various political, economic or social issues. Some of the most interesting people in my life largely disagree with my views, perhaps that is why i enjoy their friendship as much as i do, they see things different and can offer a different perspective. "Diversity" is not just some superficial skin deep concept, diversity should include people who view the world differently, it wont kill you
As for "outing him" as a Trump supporter, that shit sounds ridiculous, as if supporting a different candidate is somehow wrong, you are talking about him as if you caught him stealing, like the man is a criminal for having a opposing view to you.
I did not become friends with my friends due to their views on various political, economic or social issues. Some of the most interesting people in my life largely disagree with my views, perhaps that is why i enjoy their friendship as much as i do, they see things different and can offer a different perspective. "Diversity" is not just some superficial skin deep concept, diversity should include people who view the world differently, it wont kill you
As for "outing him" as a Trump supporter, that shit sounds ridiculous, as if supporting a different candidate is somehow wrong, you are talking about him as if you caught him stealing, like the man is a criminal for having a opposing view to you.
Omegasquash
Member
Refugeephobia and religiophobia don't either, but I take your meaning.
My impersonation of one who is anti-Muslim doesn't meet your criteria?
Edit: I should be clearer. Where I'm from, there's a whole lot of intersect between racism and religious animosity. The blending of the two happened frequently, which is why my impersonation came out as such.
I feel like if you support a racist you have some racist tendencies yourself. I didn't know this about him thus I outed him. I don't tolerate that shit around me I even tell my parents to stop when they talk about "white folks"
I went to the same high school as Eric Trump, but he graduated the year before I started attending that high school. It's funny I have so many mutual friends with him on facebook, and some of my closest buddies won't throw shade at Donald Trump on social media to avoid offending Eric. They are missing out.
Supporting someone who has the power to and supports policy that actively ruin the lives of millions is pretty dire.
Gun Animal
Member
he tweeted an image someone else made and then flippantly blamed it on an intern or something when he got heat over it.
Do they look accurate? Does it even matter? Who gives a shit about racial crime statistics, they don't matter unless you're trying to prove a point about predisposition or some other garbage.
they're not
Obviously not. There are plenty of brown people who hate Islam. It's a natural reaction when you actually learn about the religion. Go to India and ask people what they think.
Let's not do this please.
gamerMan
Member
Does anyone on Gaf support Donald Trump? Everyone I talk to thinks he's a joke. Obviously, there are a lot of people in America that believe in his ideals, which I think is scarier than the man himself.
Are you kidding? These are grossly made up by a bold faced liar trying to be the President of the most powerful nation on earth. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mp/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/
Are you kidding? These are grossly made up by a bold faced liar trying to be the President of the most powerful nation on earth. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...mp/trump-tweet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/
We even have someone who supports Trump on Gaf who believes Presidents should be given absolute power.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Yes, it matters. Christ. It's blatantly wrong, blatantly racist, and retweeted(created by neo-nazi's) by someone running for President. That better raise some damn eyebrows.
Omegasquash
Member
I made edits to my post at what I think was the same time you were posting this. Just making sure that my admittedly brusque response wasn't left simply as such.
Crash Station
Member
There are a lot of gaffers with views that go against the grain, but won't voice it for fear of being banned. As welcoming as gaf is, it can be an echo chamber when politics are involved, leading to conservatives being silenced into submission and sticking to other threads.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Yes, of course this forum has supporters, some are vocal about it, from the get go, and then you have the salty Bernie fans(and I'm definitely a supporter of Bernie) that somehow decide Trump is the next best thing, which would befuddle Bernie himself.
I'm not resting easy on him not winning a general election, no fucking way, so you're damn right there's something scary about that.
They are indeed. Annually, 97% of all black people are killed by black people. That is why the population of African-American people has in recent years dwindled to less than the Sumatran rhino. USA crime statistics is one of the oldest polling firms
friskykillface
Banned
believe in trump the god ;p
I know a few people that support trump, meh I just don't let political stuff get in the way of friendships, only if they go on and on and on and be aggressive in trying to sway me
I know a few people that support trump, meh I just don't let political stuff get in the way of friendships, only if they go on and on and on and be aggressive in trying to sway me
Icedburden
Member
Yup. 100% agree.Schattenjäger;196233482 said:
Well, if they fear being banned, it sounds to me like they're aware of how insulting their views are. Especially if they support the xenophobia, class-warfare against the poor, nationalism, racism, misogyny, hate of the lgbt community,hatred of any religion that isn't Christianity etc. etc. that the current Republican party encompasses.
shadowfall
Member
People have opinions and positions. I do not think you became friends with him because of his previous political leanings. In the larger scale of things, I really do not think it matters. And unless your friend lives in Ohio, I really dont think his vote even matters.
Crash Station
Member
I was going to say that's not how you read it, but now I'm trying to figure out how the fuck you ARE supposed to read it. Is it based on total murder numbers or the breakdown of black and white deaths in general? But that still doesn't make sense!
I don't care how inaccurate those numbers are, somebody make a pie chart so I know what the fuck it means!
Which is sad and crazy on the same time since Hillary is closer to Trump in the political spectrum than Bernie, but Bernie is closer to Trump when it comes to Middle-Eastern and the war in Iraq (if Trump doesn't lie about that too).
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