Are you backhandedly questioning the harmonious 4-day, 4-side, 4-corner wisdom of Dr. Gene Ray, Cubic? The expanding Earth theory of distinguished artist and philosopher Neal Adams? I am shocked and appalled, sir!
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So my girlfriend thinks the Earth is 6000 years old...
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Are you backhandedly questioning the harmonious 4-day, 4-side, 4-corner wisdom of Dr. Gene Ray, Cubic? The expanding Earth theory of distinguished artist and philosopher Neal Adams? I am shocked and appalled, sir!
CleverGirl
Neo Member
Sanky Panky
Banned
How can we not use the laws of physics and energy to explain why things fall apart? BECAUSE everything can be so easily explained in the context of heat flows, is why thermodynamics is so awesome and essential. I'm sorry for you if your three years were limited to studying the energy inside a closed cylinder. The fact is that thermodynamics can explain anything that happens in the nature around you and within you.
Sutton Dagger
Member
So let me get this straight, the carbon dating method is accurate up to a point at around 6000 years, when any other date before that time is arrived at using carbon dating it's just God making the remains appear older than they are? Dude, you're on a whole other level...
Mainstream historical scholars (the majority) have presented evidence that the Daniel 'prophecies' (his entire book is not prophetic) were written in the second century, this isn't a matter of half siding with the 6th century hypothesis and the other half with the 2nd century date, the mainstream have concluded a 2nd century date is more likely. I'm literally laughing out loud at your source...
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Yes it can, just not the way you use it to. I had an entire class on thermodynamics in biology. Anyone with any background in thermodynamics, hell anyone with a basic working knowledge of it, knows that the Earth is not a closed system by any means whatsoever. It's like the furthest thing possible from it. And a person building a house of cards used to describe a closed system of energy?
I think you are actually mixing several branches of science together and calling them collectively "thermodynamics". Actually I'm not sure what you are doing...
Telling christians their history is not precise or writtern in truthful context does nothing to sway most. They ignore what the at the very least the council of nicea implies or how vactican church hellenized the damn book to death.
Sanky Panky
Banned
Fine, if it makes it clearer the person building a house of cards is in a closed room which is the closed system. Energies and temperatures start out and remain constant within that room. The potential energy that I myself localized between the cards, will tend to disperse with ease. The cards will fall apart.
I guess going back to abiogenesis, this is the main hurdle you referenced yourself?
Does anything enter or exit this closed room?
Sanky Panky
Banned
Nope. the temperature and energy inside remains the same.
But then... how do you get stuff to add to your house of cards? Was your house of cards always there?
Gorgon
Member
Regarding the Earth as a closed system: the Earth is regarded as a closed system for modelling purposes when modelling very short term phenomena, like what will be the weather 3 days from now. Why? Because the energy imputs and outputs aren't worth considering under such short term time spans and so it simplifies the model.
Under longer time spans this can't be done for the simple reason that the Earth is NOT a closed system. If it was you wouldn't have Ice Ages, Snow-Ball Earths, or major shifts in Earth's average temperatures on long time scales.
So stop embarrassing yourself.
No.
Yes.
Really? Because in your example you were pretty clear you were getting energy from outside the system:
So you get energy from outside the system but you say that you are part of a closed system??? You just don't have any idea what a closed system means.
Tip: stop embarrasing yourself.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
This is where you are confused it seems. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. It is always conserved.
The two things that can change are heat and entropy and entropy can never decrease. In order for life and other ordered systems to exist, there has to be a net increase in entropy. This is why life on earth isn't a closed system, it needs the heat of the sun to exist.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
You said science has no business trying to find out how life got here. so if it doesn't have any business doing why the hell do theists or anyone else? Especially without any given proof? At least science is trying to figure i out with observable proof. it certainly has more business doing it than the religious and their holy texts.
movinggoalposts.jpg
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Sure, science can bring us all together! It's a universal language in many ways. You just have to actually understand the science to know what it is actually telling us instead of twisting it and misconstruing it into something that it is not.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Isn't the sun an outside source of energy anyways?Accepting he's wrong would be transferring energy from the outside. But that would violate the 2nd law so it's obviously impossible.
Why didn't you quote the sentence right after that one? Oh, right, because it wouldn't work either. I mean pick a leaf from a tree, constantly expose it to sunlight, it's not going to live for very long. Could that be... because it has to work as an open system?
Many people who do not understand science compare it to religion. This irks me. Though, if we really must describe science as religious in nature, well its the one true religion. Its responsible for the best prophecies and miracles.
Sanky Panky
Banned
The cards were there. Everything already exists within the room.
Gorgon said:
Thank your admitting that Earth can be viewed in the context of a closed system. Yes long-term temperatures in Earth change, but not enough to affect the sustainability of life as we have known it. Not commenting on the implications of global warming (which I know is real), but for life to have existed since the beginning, Earth temperatures have remained within the range that makes life possible. Entropy does not decrease. Things tend to fall apart. It's undeniable.
Gorgon said:
I get energy from the room that I am in, which is a closed system. Heat is transfered as energy from outside my body to inside (increasing entopy in the room). I think lack of reading comprehension is what is truly embarrasing.
Al-ibn Kermit said:
Check again. By saying that energy is "lost" I'm not saying at all that it was destroyed. Some energy is lost by the system, as it converts energy into work, as no system is 100% efficient. Energy is simply transfered from one state to another. Heat flows. Entropy increases.
Entropy has NOTHING to do with how hot something, but how that heat is ultimately distributed. An increase in entropy is NOT an increase in energy. It's an increase in the energy being spread out equally within the system. So nah, I'm not the one that is confused.
Okay, so house of cards is the body, or rather, the room is and the house of cards is like... I actually don't know. But it was always there? The closed room includes the house of cards AND the builder, but why do you need the builder again? I thought the builder got energy from outside the room and used it to build the house of cards... But if the cards were always there, why do you need to build anything?
This might be my failing guys
This might be my failing guys
So the room is above 37˚C, right? Another condition to add to your ever expanding list. I hope you realize that it gets so precise and restrictive that it can't apply to real life conditions for your body, let alone the whole earth.
Sanky Panky
Banned
The heat within the earth will spread into the room until they are both of equal temperature. Entropy increases. The 2nd law holds. It's what happens at night, heat flows out into space at the same rate it goes in.
Kinitari said:
The room is Earth, the builder is any organ or machinery that converts energy into work, and the house of cards is the product/cell/organism/life.
Raist said:
Not necessarily. Heat is distributed in the closed room from the start, and heat as potential energy can be stored in a piece of bread that I eat, transfering the heat from the bread onto me. Entropy increases. I turn that energy into work, some dissipates into the room, some is stored in the house of cards. Entropy increases. In time, the house of cards falls, energy dissipates, entropy increases. All this time, the energy inside the room is constant.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
The dinosaurs say hello, they would like to disagree with you. They think that the temperature of the Earth can change enough to affect the sustainability of life as we have known it.
Several points:
1. Life has not existed on Earth from it's beginning, it took billions of years for life to develop here
2. Earth's temperatures have certainly not remained stable over it's 4.5 billion year existence. Not even remotely, and we have no reason to believe that they will in the future "just because". You see, the Earth is actually a very open system, and many variables can influence it's energy greatly.
3. The only thing undeniably falling apart here is your argument.
(sorry, but that sounded too good in my head to NOT type it out!)Keep up the good fight Sanky!
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
Sanky will not learn, he is not worth the time to correct and we all need to just leave the thread.
Ah it's just that you still happily interchange heat/energy (although you've been told 20 times you can't) so maybe you weren't aware that heat never transfer from a cold place (the room) to a warm place (you) without any work (unless the room is warmer than your body but that'd be very uncomfortable).
In any case, that's fine and all, but if your room remains a closed system you'll die pretty quickly. Unless, of course, your room contains an infinite supply of water and food (so that'd be a very very big room) and you don't have to pop out for a quick trip to the grocery shop. But that would be quite far away from real life conditions, wouldn't it?
And life as we know it would disappear. Except perhaps from around places like hydrothermal vents.
Also, energy from the Sun doesn't flow out into space at the same rate. It does a lot of work on the Earth, the oceans the weather, photosynthesis. We don't hit close to absolute zero at night.
Sanky Panky
Banned
Except life continued. An explosion was not enough to destroy organic life. There was a shock in temperatures, which stabilized back again over time. Temperatures have been stable enough for life to continue.
Yeah we can debate all we want about how the sun may ultimately get close enough to fry us all, but for the context of the sustainability of life, all that matters is that Earth's temperature not only supported the creation, but also the sustainability of life. It can be viewed in the context that entropy is always increasing in everything that happens in life.
Raist said:
Heat is the currency of energy. All types of energy can be expressed in tearms of heat. Heat transfers explain every mechanical process in this world. If you apply energy to an atom, as its molecules move faster, it heats up. Heat is the energy produced/transfered by chemical dissipation, which is the context in which we have been looking at it. This is a fact. I was going to accuse you of relying on a surface check on Wikipedia for your arguments, but even there it explains it quite clearly.
Raist said:
Yes, the whole point of the story is that for as long as I can consume energy stored in nutrients around the room, I can convert that energy into work in putting the cards together. As energy dissipates into the room (no longer stored for me to consume), I will eventually die, and the house of cards will fall apart. Entropy increases.
But then how come bacteria with infinite resources don't suffer from entropy death?
I'm having so much trouble following, admittedly my psychics knowledge is very weak.
From what I gather of Sanky's point - organisms are closed systems, and that given enough time, even if they have enough resources - they'll suffer entropy death. Rather than this being a mechanism of particular organisms, he sees this as a working of physics.
The points of contention
1. A body isn't a closed system, as organs receive nutrients and energy from outside to power their work.
2. The earth isn't an isolated system as it receives energy and waves and whatnot from the sun.
3. There are organisms that directly contradict Sanky's original claim
I'm having so much trouble following, admittedly my psychics knowledge is very weak.
From what I gather of Sanky's point - organisms are closed systems, and that given enough time, even if they have enough resources - they'll suffer entropy death. Rather than this being a mechanism of particular organisms, he sees this as a working of physics.
The points of contention
1. A body isn't a closed system, as organs receive nutrients and energy from outside to power their work.
2. The earth isn't an isolated system as it receives energy and waves and whatnot from the sun.
3. There are organisms that directly contradict Sanky's original claim
Only if OP offends her and has to sleep on the couch.
Sanky Panky
Banned
That's the point. They normally operate within a closed system where resources are NOT infinite. Energy is not infnite for them or any organism on Earth. You can excert energy yourself to provide these infinite resources to the bacteria, and then you contend yourself with the lack of infinite resources.
.
My point is closer to left by themselves, organisms will decay and die. Heat will dissipate increasing entropy. However, we have tools to convert the resources around us into work. these tools hava a finite life because there are no "tools" applying the needed energy to sustain them forever. They operate under a closed system. These tools are in auto pilot. The energy stored in these tools will dissipate, increasing entropy. Once the tools are gone, the organism is gone. Nothing violates the laws of physics.
The points of contention
1. A body isn't a closed system, as organs receive nutrients and energy from outside to power their work.Without something actively converting energy for specific purposes, the organism will die. As it happens with all organic matter, if left unattended, it will be destroyed by the dissipation of energy contained within. Entropy increases according to the law.
2. The earth isn't an isolated system as it receives energy and waves and whatnot from the sun. Energy within the Earth is stable enough that we can observe nature behaving in a way that supports entropy increasing in every step, as predicted by a closed system.
3. There are organisms that directly contradict Sanky's original claimNo there aren't. Your example of an immortal medusae is one that has a tool that recycles cells, and itself deteriorates with time. They haven't bothered to measure if they are immortal. They are not
Dude Abides
Banned
Atoms dont have molecules. Did you take high school chemistry?
Life as we know it wouldn't be possible without the seemingly infinite supply of energy - as far as life is concerned - from the Sun.
So far the Sun hasn't stopped even if it will eventually. If your point is that everything dies, it seems a silly one. Is everything alive because it might all reach thermodynamic equilibrium 10^100 years from now?
So far the Sun hasn't stopped even if it will eventually. If your point is that everything dies, it seems a silly one. Is everything alive because it might all reach thermodynamic equilibrium 10^100 years from now?
scar tissue
Banned
Amazing.
This and the carbon dating line really delivered. Thread of the year candidate.
louis89
Member
lol. Why even argue with this guy? He doesn't even have a basic understanding of science, as you can see here. Stop wasting your time.
So if an organisms manages to circumvent death via medicine (ie, nanomachines, organ replacement, who knows what) and for their 'infinite energy source' manages to leave earth's atmosphere by the time the sun dies, and continue to find new stars as their energy source - then they are not alive - because they don't die?
Originally all this came up because of his definitions of what constitutes life - the physics stuff... well it seems like he has a very... out there and radical opinion, and I am definitely not learned enough to give him a proper debate in this field - so I'd rather we just move back to his original point. That death is a quality of life.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Hah, if I show her this thread she will most certainly become a "closed system", LOL!!!
Sanky constantly uses scientific terms in the wrong context. If he would just stop throwing around words in the wrong places and stop trying to make his arguments sound more impressive than they are he would come across better. I assume by "molecules" he simply meant building blocks of an atom. Or maybe he didn't, in which case LOL!
Or maybe atoms are made of molecules and science and chemistry have been wrong all along...
Ice. Cold.
"Theists" aren't trying to see how life got here. They accept whatever they believe & most of us fit this belief within the context of what science finds out. It's just like science does with abiogenesis. It's a belief for sure although I would never go so far as to call it a religious one.
I may have mistated if I said science has no business trying to find out how life got here. They will and they can't help it and, who knows, maybe there is a slight chance they're right. I'm not that hung up on that. I'm pretty sure my statements have made it clear that it's a pointless endeavor for them. My point was trying to guestimate about how life got here is not science, but maybe it will turn into it just like realizing God exists will automatically turn him into a scientific discussion.
As it stands, the only thing it has in common with science is that a scientist believes it over God and has the ability to convert non-scientists into accepting it too.
I'm all for them trying to create life though, so if trying to find life's origins in absence of God spurs that activity on, then more power to them.
Sanky Panky
Banned
Oops, meant to say particles. Had molecules in my mind.
danwarb said:
Life is possible because the constant stable energy is the Earth is constantly in motion between nutrients, organisms, and waste. Entropy increases in every step, as assumed by a closed system.
Kinitari said:
Welp, a living organism has a tool to convert the energy in its surroundings into work. As long as something is maintaining that tool, then yes theoretically it can go on forever. However, that goes against the natural laws, so we never see it happening. We can talk theoreticals all day, but it's not relevant to our definition of life as we know it.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Sanky.....as I and many others in this thread have told you already...
NO, NO! FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN, NO!!!! The Earth is not a thermodynamically closed system! It's not a closed system of any kind whatsoever!!! Energy does not always equal heat! And energy does not always stay in one form! Thats why we aren't fried from the sun bombarding the Earth for billions of years!
Please, just....please STOP calling the Earth a closed system. Just....stop.
What about inorganic life?
I can give you an infinite supply of food, you'll still die (don't even need any close to infinite but whatevs). S'up with that?
I dunno man, your argument seems very familiar to... something. What was it again...
"The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics describes basic principles familiar in everyday life. It is partially a universal law of decay; the ultimate cause of why everything ultimately falls apart and disintegrates over time. Material things are not eternal. Everything appears to change eventually, and chaos increases. Nothing stays as fresh as the day one buys it; clothing becomes faded, threadbare, and ultimately returns to dust.2 Everything ages and wears out. Even death is a manifestation of this law. The effects of the 2nd Law are all around, touching everything in the universe."
Oh...
I wish they were.
Sanky Panky
Banned
a living thing begins when a system starts processing nutrients to sustain itself. The minute it can no longer do so, it dies. Life is a cycle. Death is a part of it.
When everything around us stops behaving like one, then I'll stop.
Then why include death in the definition of life? Things tend not to last forever, whether they're alive or not.
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