Seraphinianus
Banned
not by the 1% of gaf-- us 100ppp people
and you bring up good points about change. people want change like buying something from a store, but it's never going to be that easy.
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So what has the Occupy Movement actually achieved?
- Thread starter kurtrussell
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not by the 1% of gaf-- us 100ppp people
and you bring up good points about change. people want change like buying something from a store, but it's never going to be that easy.
Not what I'm saying.
But there is a massive fucking difference between the people who protest between classes and the ones who do it while having guns pointed at the them.
The people in Egypt had every reason to not show up - what is OCW's excuse? They don't have the same drive. Nowhere close. They shouldn't be in the same discussion.
kurtrussell
Banned
Interestingly, the people in Egypt also didn't need to set up little media stations, appeal for handouts of free Mac Books and iPhones and appoint a press liaison officer...
It seems that Occupy was more about empathy and being part of a social and cultural "happening" than actually doing anything concrete, which has to be considered a massively wasted opportunity.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
They were successful in taking an issue that many Americans could sympathize with and through their inept leadership, massive stupidity and boorish tactics managed to piss off and alienate the vast majority of Americans. Bravo
What difference is relevant to this thread? Would storming the White House with machine guns have been more effective than stinking up public places?
Seraphinianus
Banned
why don't you start by saying what were you expecting to happen? How can this be an evaluation without any terms to evaluate it on?
From a raising awareness perspective, it's a pretty big success. Here we are discussing it. Whether anything happens with that awareness is still up in the air.
kurtrussell
Banned
Yes. Next question?
Of course. Isn't that why Americans have guns?
kurtrussell
Banned
Okay, well if I were the leadership, I would have:
1 - Set out a clear list of demands early on
2 - Encouraged my supporters to be more proactive and actually spoken to their representatives, officials etc. A massive portion of the successful SOPA opposition was generated through email and letter writing and phonecalls - NOT camping out somewhere doing nothing for months on end.
3 - Not gotten in the way of some of the ordinary citizens of whose views I claimed to represent. Without the goodwill and support of the masses, the movement is nothing
Interestingly, I went to the very movement that is said to have inspired the Occupy Wall Street lot - a huge temporary encampment in Plaça de Catalunya, Barcelona at the end of May 2011. They pissed a lot of locals off, and lost about 95% of their goodwill because that square is usually used for the community to get together and watch the large Barcelona matches. The moment it became apparent that the square would not be open for the Barcelona European Champions final due to the camps, their support dwindled.. in other words, they started to negatively affect people in a much more obvious way than what they were protesting about and became an annoyance. This is pretty much what has happened with the Occupy movement.
Seraphinianus
Banned
edit nm
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Well at least we're getting to the point where your trolling starts to get lazy.
Feel free to hop off the nuts.
I was talking specifically about Time magazine taking the liberty of lumping in OCW with the other movements going on across the globe. And in comparison they're little league. Good for them on raising awareness, but going back to the OP and what they've actually achieved? Not much other than that.
I'm not saying they need to raid a government building. They can start small... like outdoing the John Stewart/Colbert Rally with some regularity. Like someone else said, they seem more like a fad or cultural thing than an actual movement at times.
radioheadrule83
Banned
I think you're downplaying and underestimating the effect actually... the social and political effects of a movement are often subtle and invisible in the interceding period of change... anyone expecting a revolution was way off base to begin with. But I don't think there's any question that attitudes have begun to change, and people are really questioning what portion of society they belong to, what portion of society is suffering and what portion of society is rolling around in their filthy rich money pits. In the same way that people always question what the government actually does for anyone, they are now questioning the same of the faceless and over-powerful in the commercial world. Tolerance will not be high if there is another economic disaster.
Seraphinianus
Banned
kurtrussell said:
I don't think OWS is safe from criticism, but lets be realistic, the money wasn't just going to get dumped from the windows of high rises because a bunch of people protested. Wealth is in individuals' hands and you can't just take it away from them. If this gets people talking and leads to legislation in the future (like, even the distant future when today's 20 somethings are in the House and Senate), then it's a success.
For now, it's good enough that it happened and got everyone talking. OWS didn't completely suicide itself by going too crazy and burning down buildings and it got a ton of publicity. Sure, it made some people grumble about them getting in the way or needing to get jobs, but if that's the worst of it, then whatever.
maniac-kun
Member
Well the system fired from all canons to stop that movement.
And they won.
And they won.
kurtrussell
Banned
Internet 101: Different opinion to yours != trolling
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
This argument tends to pop up every time OWS is discussed and it's already been refuted a million times. Just because Egyptians faced down guns doesn't mean that any protest that doesn't involve the threat of death is invalid or irrelevant. Some Bhuddist monks set themselves on fire to protest. They literally burned themselves alive, a form of protest so absolutely, painfully final that it kind of dwarfs any other. And yet that doesn't diminish what happened in Egypt in the slightest, nor should it.
At any rate, I would like to believe that Americans should never have to have their protests met with gunfire, not if we're as exceptional and freedom-loving as we like to proclaim.
I understand that, but a large percentage of the Ron Paul fanbase seem to be people who are REALLY fed up with the entire establishment, including the media.
They aren't just fed up with the current sitting president or with a certain politician, they are fed up with the way their entire country has been run for decades on end now.
Ron Paul often does interviews on Alex Jones' show for example, and Alex Jones virulently hates the US government.. he believes they stage false flag terror attacks and are basically the biggest criminals in the world. (he's also against the wars of course)
And I believe a lot of Ron Paul voters are people who sympathize with that kind of world view.
So I think a lot of Paul's supporters outright hate the entire system, they are a lot more angry than the average person who is displeased with the government from time to time, and considering he is the runner-up there are a lot of people who feel this way.
Mortrialus
Banned
They won't change a thing...
"How dare you compare Martin Luther King and his rabble to the Founding Fathers? Don't you realize that the Founding Fathers were fighting against the evils of a monarchy and taxation without representation. Blacks already have the right to vote. Poll taxes and literacy tests are such petty grievances in comparison! I mean really, if you can't pass the literacy text or have spare change equaling $13.53 in today's time, you really shouldn't be voting."
Honestly, that is all I can think of when reading posts decrying comparisons to recent revolutions in Egypt. Yes, people made those arguments.
kurtrussell
Banned
Admiral Bone to Pick
Banned
Well, let's see:
-You've failed to address legitimate counter-arguments to your points.
-"The camps got too cold for the majority of the hipsters so they went back home"
-Responding to a reasonable question with an irrational answer (regarding storming the White House).
Anyways, this is making me dumber so I'm just going to head out.
I'm not saying its irrelevant. But it is a huge difference in the type of people we're talking about. It displays a conviction and determination that simply has never existed within OCW.
Guns and flaming monks aside - there is nothing stopping these guys from showing up but themselves and outside of the 'big' areas, they just look like a bunch of hippies. I took my leave and ran into Occupy Chapel Hill and nothing about anything they were trying to say made sense.
I agree that kurt makes no statement about what his expectations were, but OCW doesn't have any idea either other than raising awareness. Which is nice, but to the broad question of the OP - they haven't actually achieved much else other than that.
HarryHengst
Member
I, too, hate poor people and think it is completely normal to create artificial barriers to prevent them from voting. Instead of saying that it is ridiculous that you have to pay to vote, you defend it. Telling for how fuck you, got mine is the regular mindset of the average American these days.
Seraphinianus
Banned
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Fair enough. You'll get no argument from me on the issue of OWS being a missed opportunity. I just don't believe it was an entirely wasted opportunity either.
That were plenty within the movement proclaiming it to be a revolution, when in reality it was just a friendly get-together. They set out to achieve great things but got stuck on the first stick in the sand.
if you protest and things don't change within a couple of weeks then its not worth it! hell lets never protest because we might fail. its pathetic how many were rooting against the people protesting since the beginning for no real reasons. omg some of the protestors looked like hipsters! i'll never support them.
It's no different than any other presidential candidate in history.
RiggenBlaque
Member
It didn't help anyone that all those goofy looking 4chan nerds were walking around in those stupid masks spouting annoying internet memes. Who could possibly take that seriously?
radioheadrule83
Banned
Me: people who expected a revolution were off-base
You: pictures of the people I'm talking about
what's your point. Care to address anything else I said?
You: pictures of the people I'm talking about
what's your point. Care to address anything else I said?
Seraphinianus
Banned
people are always going to have screwed up perceptions and I'd hardly call "revolution" a great thing. If people in the current USA think we need a revolution, they are sorely mistaken. If they got their revolution, they'd regret it soon after.
I realize this is the first time many of you have actually paid attention to a protest and I hope you're learning that you can't have impossible requirements and expectations that can never be lived up to (such as "no person in the movement can expect revolution, all must be unified in their goals.") Especially something as general and unfocused as this-- you just have to see how much publicity it generates. From there, people get ideas and maybe something more focused will come out of it in the future.
The point is that people were expecting a revolution because they were told there was to be a revolutiion. That's why plenty of people are disappointed with the OWS movement and feel that they didn't deliver on what was supposedly to take place.
In other words, they were full of shit and people found out. Now, nobody cares anymore.
grassroots campaign.
I agree. I thought the whole idea of the Occupy Wall Street movement is that it's leaderless and decentralized--hence that tedious "mic check" thing and their inability to converge on a single message or set of policies.
Lesson learned!
By the way, Who's the lady?
Seraphinianus
Banned
except you're wrong about nobody caring because here we are discussing OWS and I still see it in the news every day, so what are your sources for your assertions? "plenty" of people expected revolution, just like "plenty" of people wanted the "Take Away Money From The Rich And Give It To The Poor Act of 2011" to pass and cure everything.
They didn't get what they wanted but the protests got so much publicity that it got people thinking and talking, which is a great success. There was no clear goal, lots of people had different ideas, they all got together and got everybody talking. Maybe there's no action right now, but the ideas of the movement are out there, whether you agree with them or not. Real life doesn't play out like an episode of your favorite TV show where cause-and-effect are instantaneous.
Here's the thing. They're talking about OCW, true, but because OCW is so damned aimless and outright vague it doesn't even draw attention to the cause that would be attached it like a normal group. It fails even in that regard
So yeah, they're in the spotlight (for generally sucking most of the time), they're raising awareness (because they aren't doing much else) - for what? They don't even get that part straight.
Yeah, and since then banks posted record numbers, gave their top guys millions in bonusses, and cut staff like there was no tomorrow. We have awareness yet big corporations do not give a single shit and continue bussiness like usual.
Nothing changed, and sitting in a hippie lovecircle won't cause it to change either.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Obama's 2012 re-election campaign is almost certainly going to pivot around income inequality (especially with Romney as the GOP nominee)--the exact degree to which the Occupy protests brought this issue front and center is debatable, but it seems absurdly disingenuous to say they had no effect at all.
They will likely be back in the spring, too.
They will likely be back in the spring, too.
Seraphinianus
Banned
First--
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...=1257l3731l0l4099l8l7l1l3l4l0l167l437l0.3l3l0
I don't see anything like that at all....
I do talk with people who have criticisms like that, which is fine...I'm pretty critical of it myself. But it's fine that people have those criticisms because they have to have the movement's basic idea of income inequality on their minds in order to discuss it. People aren't just saying "those protestors are trash." They're saying things like "I know what they wanted to accomplish, but they did X, Y, and Z wrong..." A year ago, these people may not have been thinking about income inequality as much.
once again, it doesn't matter that the sky didn't fall as a result of the protest. Unequal wealth distribution is not even as easy to tackle as bringing about a regime change. It's gonna be a lifelong problem that slowly gets chipped away at. There's nothing wrong with bringing it to the forefront every once in a while.
Seraphinianus
Banned
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Agreed. With all of this, really.
And these people who think about income inequality are going to do what exactly ? These are the same people who are perfectly fine with children in foreign countries working 16 hour days so they can have their luxury gadgets/shoes/jewelry. They don't really care and never will because it is not effecting them yet.
That, and they're just a bunch of hypocrites.
Occupy Congress and do what? Yell about more stuffs and fuck up parking. What exactly are they going for? They don't even know.
Dude, there was already a massive issue with wall street, the economy, congress and all that and hate all you want but the Tea Party made more noise (even though they are misguided as all fuck). They had all the momentum in the world but wasted it. People talk about them but because they couldn't even establish themselves it becomes nothing but a waste of breath.
So dedicated... when its sunny.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
I'm starting to realize that most people who ask what the point of OWS is or what it has accomplished do so only rhetorically.
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