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So what IS the HDR standard?

I

Inkwell

Banned
Skilletor said:
This is all so frustratingly confusing.

I a samsung UN55KU630DF

I didn't really know anything about HDR yesterday, so I researched yesterday and it seems like my TV doesn't have the "wide color gamut" necessary for HDR.

But on my box it says this:



So after reading this thread, which is great btw, thank you, I don't know what I have. :(
Click to expand...

Cobalt Izuna said:
Your TV should be fine, looking at the spec sheet. Is there an option or firmware update you need to do?
Click to expand...

This confuses me greatly. I have a Samsung UN65KU650DF and have been doing way more research lately and don't know what to think. As far as Samsung goes, if you don't purchase a SUHD model, it doesn't have a 10-bit panel. Instead it has an 8-bit panel with dithering. It essentially fakes a 10-bit picture. How can an 8-bit TV be labeled as having HDR if it doesn't have the wider color gamut of a 10-bit TV?
 
I

Izuna

Banned
Inkwell said:
This confuses me greatly. I have a Samsung UN65KU650DF and have been doing way more research lately and don't know what to think. As far as Samsung goes, if you don't purchase a SUHD model, it doesn't have a 10-bit panel. Instead it has an 8-bit panel with dithering. It essentially fakes a 10-bit picture. How can an 8-bit TV be labeled as having HDR if it doesn't have the wider color gamut of a 10-bit TV?
Click to expand...

Because HDR is not a regulated specification. You got boned, basically. The thing is, because of Metadata, even if your TV was dope at downsampling the image it would never be allowed to receive it. I'll look into this more... Sounds like a scam.

edit: PurColor is a scam lol

1Complies with CTA (Consumer Technology Association) definition requirement for HDR open standard profile playback.
Click to expand...
I found this in a .pdf... but with them it is defined as needing 10-bit. Is this a straight up lie then if you really have 8-bit?
 
I

Inkwell

Banned
Cobalt Izuna said:
Because HDR is not a regulated specification. You got boned, basically. The thing is, because of Metadata, even if your TV was dope at downsampling the image it would never be allowed to receive it. I'll look into this more... Sounds like a scam.

edit: PurColor is a scam lol

I found this in a .pdf... but with them it is defined as needing 10-bit. Is this a straight up lie then if you really have 8-bit?
Click to expand...

What actually makes the whole thing worse is that it's my parents TV. My dad has been wanting one of these TVs for quite some time, though I've always tried to talk him out of it until the price dropped and there was more content. I feel like he got cheated. With all the PS4 Pro stuff I started looking at TVs for myself and stumbled onto most of the information. I'm mostly window shopping since I get analysis paralysis or whatever you want to call it, plus it may be a while before I actually need one of these TVs.

I do feel like Samsung is doing some shady stuff. I hear other manufacturers like Sony have done something similar. I feel horrible for my parents and don't really want to tell them they bought a garbage TV, but they probably won't even notice or care all that much anyway. In the end it feels like false advertising that they are able to skirt around with technicalities.
 
L

luffeN

Member
Skilletor said:
This is all so frustratingly confusing.

I a samsung UN55KU630DF

I didn't really know anything about HDR yesterday, so I researched yesterday and it seems like my TV doesn't have the "wide color gamut" necessary for HDR.

But on my box it says this:



So after reading this thread, which is great btw, thank you, I don't know what I have. :(
Click to expand...

This is your answer: http://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/89a9584

Edit: So you "only" have 8 bit colors instead of 10.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
III-V said:
Cross posting, but this is some really good information.
Click to expand...

Some quick notes about this video:
- Game are being rendered in 16-bit (and have been) for a long time
- Explanation of HDR starts from 6:05
- Guy speaks like a lecturer and will literally put you to sleep
- His slides have false comparisons
- Stuff about Pointer's Gamut is very interesting, starts at 13:00

ePOkKOI.png

- He tells us that the squiggly black line is encapsulates all the colours that tend to occur naturally, showing that Rec. 2020, while not capable of showing us every colour visible to the average human eye, it shows pretty all the ones we want
Click to expand...

- He then goes on to explain on how the rendering is done, gamma, etc. and the rest is sort of how their Lumberyard engine works and how it benefits from HDR...

Here's tl;dr from their own slide:

Lumberyard makes HDR easy.
HDR gives artists more space to create.
HDR looks great without special tweaking.
HDR TVs faithfully reproduce what artists see.
Click to expand...
 
G

GeoNeo

I disagree.
Inkwell said:
What actually makes the whole thing worse is that it's my parents TV. My dad has been wanting one of these TVs for quite some time, though I've always tried to talk him out of it until the price dropped and there was more content. I feel like he got cheated. With all the PS4 Pro stuff I started looking at TVs for myself and stumbled onto most of the information. I'm mostly window shopping since I get analysis paralysis or whatever you want to call it, plus it may be a while before I actually need one of these TVs.

I do feel like Samsung is doing some shady stuff. I hear other manufacturers like Sony have done something similar. I feel horrible for my parents and don't really want to tell them they bought a garbage TV, but they probably won't even notice or care all that much anyway. In the end it feels like false advertising that they are able to skirt around with technicalities.
Click to expand...

This type of crap is exactly why I'm against manufacturers setting their own goal lines like I posted in the other page so they can cheat out consumers such as your parents by selling them low end panels & making claims which are never true.

Now you have them selling "HDR" 8-bit panels which will suffer from poor gradations & coverage of Rec2020(DCI P3) gamut.

Also, you still have LCD manufacturers selling edge lit displays with poor blacks & weaker nit output because fuck it they can do what they want in the "entry" price point.
 
S

Skilletor

Member
Inkwell said:
This confuses me greatly. I have a Samsung UN65KU650DF and have been doing way more research lately and don't know what to think. As far as Samsung goes, if you don't purchase a SUHD model, it doesn't have a 10-bit panel. Instead it has an 8-bit panel with dithering. It essentially fakes a 10-bit picture. How can an 8-bit TV be labeled as having HDR if it doesn't have the wider color gamut of a 10-bit TV?
Click to expand...

Right? And on the box it clearly states hdr premium, which from what I've read is only used for true hdr. That seems like false advertising to me.

I'm a fairly smart consumer, and I'm confused as fuck. I can't imagine what it would be like for the average person.

I admit to not researching before buying the TV, but even after, I'm not sure what to think.
 
K

Koren

Member
metareferential said:
Not really. There could 1080p 10bit displays.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure there is... For example, aren't the Sony 4500 line, which is 8 years old, 10 bits sets?

W4500 at least are 10bits Wide color gamut, if I'm not mistaken... Blacks aren't wonderful, but I still like the colors of mine even if I bought it in 2008 (although the source is an issue)...
 
BigEmil

BigEmil

Junior Member
JP said:
Dolby Vision? I'm not sure the full profile will ever become the standard but it's probably worth including it here.
Click to expand...

Dolby Vision is proprietary so shouldn't be standard like the popular standard HDR 10
 
G

GeoNeo

I disagree.
Skilletor said:
Right? And on the box it clearly states hdr premium, which from what I've read is only used for true hdr. That seems like false advertising to me.

I'm a fairly smart consumer, and I'm confused as fuck. I can't imagine what it would be like for the average person.

I admit to not researching before buying the TV, but even after, I'm not sure what to think.
Click to expand...
Return it. It's not HD Premium even on Samsungs site they don't list it as that. If the box says it you have every right to return it.

Disgusting practice by Samsung.
 
W

Wollan

Member
HDR10 is solidifying itself as the standard and baseline with maybe a 'final' HDR12 to come in a couple of years.
HDR10 is being updated with continous metadata (Dolby Visions greatest strength) with the HDMI 2.1 standard.

Please have FreeSync come too.

Will get the Samsung this year for my PS4 Pro with next TV update in 2019-20.
 
K

KennyL

Member
Super simplified way of imagining this in your mind is greatly reduced black crush, white clamp, and color banding.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
KennyL said:
Super simplified way of imagining this in your mind is greatly reduced black crush, white clamp, and color banding.
Click to expand...

http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html

This is a super complicated way of viewing it. Basically, most examples I have shown are in fact a gross oversimplification.

Our own eyes cannot see really dark and really bright content at the same time, it's actually an illusion. However, our TVs being able to show these at the same time would allow us to get that information to our brains regardless.

--

But yeah, you're right. I tried to keep out black crush etc. though since the average consumer has the additional issue of using an LCD regardless. It'll still exist with some HDR displays sadly.
 
C

cleveridea

Member
What kind of money would you need to get a 4K set with good HDR that has low enough latency for at least 30 fps games, but preferably fast enough for 60 fps. Something in the 60-65 inch range.

Just ballpark pricing like $2000?
 
C

Cartman86

Banned
I'm guessing if I have a television that supports HDR 10 bit etc my second monitor that I split the video signal too will not be able to display an image at all? I'll have to lower the source to something both displays can show? Like how I would have to do that with resolution?
 
1

10k

Banned
Thanks cobalt. Making me want to buy a 4k HDR set when I'm broke. I wish I was still ignorant about HDR lol.
 
S

Steve McQueen

Member
GeoNeo said:
Make sure to warn people HDR10 standard atm is static metadata & next year TVs will be moving to dynamic HDR10 which is huge. (Will get pushed out with new HDMI 2.1 spec.)
Click to expand...

I've read somewhere that HDMI 2.1 is just around the corner. Is this true? I'm willing to wait, but it would be great if it launches in the near future for a decent price.


Edit: HDR10 is not supported on HDMI 2.1 Dolby Vision is apparantly. The plot thickens...
 
Boss Man

Boss Man

Member
cleveridea said:
What kind of money would you need to get a 4K set with good HDR that has low enough latency for at least 30 fps games, but preferably fast enough for 60 fps. Something in the 60-65 inch range.

Just ballpark pricing like $2000?
Click to expand...
You guessed it. Maybe $1500-$2000 depending on size.
 
I

Izuna

Banned
Venom Fox said:
My question is now will TV'S come calibrated as standard to enhance HDR more?
Click to expand...

I honestly don't know why they don't already do. Any TV worth its salt should be pretty good out of the box these days.

It should eliminate the need for dynamic contrast etc. being enabled on TVs, but I fear SDR -> HDR post-processing effects will come to play.
 
V

Venom Fox

Banned
rrs said:
at the higher end range perhaps, but I still see low end tvs having settings to get sold on a sales floor rather than for a living room
Click to expand...
I hope so. Calibration is fucking expensive or hard to do on your own. This is one thing that should be standardised for 4K and HDR.

Cobalt Izuna said:
I honestly don't know why they don't already do. Any TV worth its salt should be pretty good out of the box these days.

It should eliminate the need for dynamic contrast etc. being enabled on TVs, but I fear SDR -> HDR post-processing effects will come to play.
Click to expand...
Yep they really should.
 
PLASTICA-MAN

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Wow. The number of threads talking about HDR. I know this is so confusing for many. That is why.
It seems HDR is getting more attention and emphasis than 4K UHD itself.
 
P

panama chief

Member
cleveridea said:
What kind of money would you need to get a 4K set with good HDR that has low enough latency for at least 30 fps games, but preferably fast enough for 60 fps. Something in the 60-65 inch range.

Just ballpark pricing like $2000?
Click to expand...

Got a Samsung 65KS8000 for $1699 a month ago. Thank you Adorama/eBay/slickdeals. Regularly priced at $1999 tho.
 
P

ps3ud0

Member
More interested in HLG HDR adoption myself as the THE standard, annoying how long it took for Rec 2100 to be finalised as we could have had 1080p HDR sets...

ps3ud0 8)
 
S

Steve McQueen

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
Wow. The number of threads talking about HDR. I know this is so confusing for many. That is why.
It seems HDR is getting more attention and emphasis than 4K UHD itself.
Click to expand...

Digital Foundry was more impressed by HDR than 4K UHD. Must admit that I never worried about HDR thinking any HDR would do. Silly me 😂
 
S

Sciz

Member
PLASTICA-MAN said:
Wow. The number of threads talking about HDR. I know this is so confusing for many. That is why.
It seems HDR is getting more attention and emphasis than 4K UHD itself.
Click to expand...

People understand "more pixels". We've been through that song and dance before.

Explaining "better pixels" is trickier business that hasn't been a big focus in the consumer space since way back when PCs were still working on getting up to 16.7M color support, and those jumps were a lot more obvious.
 
THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Reading the various threads on GAF the last few days? A mess.

I'm leaving it at least a year or two but I admit I'm fed up of the goalposts of TV spec being moved with new standards coming before current standards are anywhere near fleshed out.

No doubt 8K screens or some other next big thing will launch before HDR is fully realised.
 
C

cleveridea

Member
Wow I didnt realize prices have come down so rapidly. Definitely makes me think Sony should have bitten the bullet and just put the UHD drive in there. Once the Pro comes out it likely will sell 4K TV's if the graphics are as good as DF were saying they are.

I am buying a Pro anyway for 1080p, it would be ironic if I ended up buying that, then find the move to 4K TV too hard to resist, buy a 4K set and...then I would need to buy a MS console for the UHD. I have a high end PC so given X1 games are coming out on PC, I had no plans to buy a Scorpio and just keep my OG X1 for sunset overdrive in particular. Sony may have ended up selling me on a new xbox console (I def want UHD drive)

Can someone comment on how good they think a PS4 Pro would look & "feel" at 4K 30 fps (presumably the standard framerate) on one of these high quality TV's versus playing at 1080p with Titan X (Its 3D Vision capable monitor hence not 1440) at 60 fps maxed? The former being much higher IQ the latter being 60+ smooth? Its hard for me to tell if it would be better playing say Watchdogs 2 at 4K/HDR/30fps versus 1080/60...I guess the quicker the action the more the framerate benefits and vice versa.
 
molnizzle

molnizzle

Member
I'll be checking back in to this HDR thing in a couple years when this shit has been fully worked out and standardized. Buying right now feels akin to buying an HDTV back before the HDMI spec was fully standardized. You're taking a big risk.
 
T

televator

Member
FINALLY! A straight faced answer to the question of Full Vs. Limited RGB raw scales before display processes. Thank you! I had a slight bothersome inkling that limited could potentially create more banding for like a whole year now without finding a straight answer.
 
R

rrs

Member
cleveridea said:
Can someone comment on how good they think a PS4 Pro would look & "feel" at 4K 30 fps (presumably the standard framerate) on one of these high quality TV's versus playing at 1080p with Titan X (Its 3D Vision capable monitor hence not 1440) at 60 fps maxed? The former being much higher IQ the latter being 60+ smooth? Its hard for me to tell if it would be better playing say Watchdogs 2 at 4K/HDR/30fps versus 1080/60...I guess the quicker the action the more the framerate benefits and vice versa.
Click to expand...
Better picture vs higher framerate is a battle fought since the beginning of time, the answer is up to the beholder.
 
I

Izcarielo

Banned
So what about pc monitors? Are they HDR too? I think i never saw any pc monitor marketed using that term.
Maybe its something that only affect Tvs?
Great insightful thread btw 👌🏻
 
V

Vinc

Member
This is a fantastic thread, thank you for making it!

There are clear signs that the market is not yet mature enough for mainstream adoption, so hopefully the standards that emerge are the best possible ones.

At the moment I'm just wondering what's the best gaming 4K HDR TV 1500 canadian dollars can buy.
 
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