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Some good sites to learn Texas Hold em?
- Thread starter Cubsfan23
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Best online site: http://www.playwinningpoker.com/texas-holdem/
Though I'd recommend starting with a few good books, instead. Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones is the best book for novice players, assuming that you already know the basic rules of the game.
Though I'd recommend starting with a few good books, instead. Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones is the best book for novice players, assuming that you already know the basic rules of the game.
Once you have the basics down, I heartily recommend Inside the Poker Mind by Schoonmaker. Some of his essays are posted on www.twoplustwo.com also. Great, deeper stuff that's also an interesting read.
Oh and Cowboys never win.
Oh and Cowboys never win.
Mister Zimbu
Member
My books:
-For No Limit tourneys, "Harrington on Hold'em" is an excellent read.
-"Winning Low Limit Hold'em" is good too.
-Sklansky's "The Theory of Poker" seems okay, but I only play low limits and tourneys right now so I haven't really been able to apply what I've learned.
-Brunson's "Super System" is kind of outdated, geared towards high stakes players, and following his No Limit section will get you killed 99.9% of the time.
If I had to suggest an order to buy these books, I'd go with WLLHE first, then Harrington's book, then Sklansky's.
In addition, find some Poker forums and just read posts and try to absorb as much as you can. Learn from others' experiences. The rec.gambling.poker newsgroup has some good nuggets of wisdom (mixed in with a shitload of spam and more trolling than the Gaming Forum), if you can find them. Twoplustwo also has some good forums, I hear, but I haven't read into them too much.
If you're a complete beginner, you can get some good basic tips at http://www.pokertips.org.
If you're going to play low or micro limits (which I assume you are), keep away from alot of the advanced strategy; just play good hands strong and don't try to outplay or bluff them whatsoever. You'll outplay them naturally if you're good. Learn to master pot odds as soon as possible.
Don't expect to win too much! In Limit games, playing optimally, the average you can expect to win in a session is 2 big bets per hour. This probably increases more playing micro limits, where you're the only sane one at the table. However, in online tournaments, even with low buyins, you can make a killing if you're good enough and lucky enough. A $5 tournament on PokerStars or UltimateBet can net the winner $1-2k. You just have to get through the other thousand people first.
As I type, I'm getting bitched at by some guy.
I raise with pocket jacks to 4xBB, and defends his blind with T6s. Flop puts two of his suit on the board, he bets minimum, I know what he has and raise to the pot size, he foolishly calls, catches his flush on the turn and goes all-in. I stupidly call, and catch my jack on the river to make a boat. Serves him right to play that trash.
-For No Limit tourneys, "Harrington on Hold'em" is an excellent read.
-"Winning Low Limit Hold'em" is good too.
-Sklansky's "The Theory of Poker" seems okay, but I only play low limits and tourneys right now so I haven't really been able to apply what I've learned.
-Brunson's "Super System" is kind of outdated, geared towards high stakes players, and following his No Limit section will get you killed 99.9% of the time.
If I had to suggest an order to buy these books, I'd go with WLLHE first, then Harrington's book, then Sklansky's.
In addition, find some Poker forums and just read posts and try to absorb as much as you can. Learn from others' experiences. The rec.gambling.poker newsgroup has some good nuggets of wisdom (mixed in with a shitload of spam and more trolling than the Gaming Forum), if you can find them. Twoplustwo also has some good forums, I hear, but I haven't read into them too much.
If you're a complete beginner, you can get some good basic tips at http://www.pokertips.org.
If you're going to play low or micro limits (which I assume you are), keep away from alot of the advanced strategy; just play good hands strong and don't try to outplay or bluff them whatsoever. You'll outplay them naturally if you're good. Learn to master pot odds as soon as possible.
Don't expect to win too much! In Limit games, playing optimally, the average you can expect to win in a session is 2 big bets per hour. This probably increases more playing micro limits, where you're the only sane one at the table. However, in online tournaments, even with low buyins, you can make a killing if you're good enough and lucky enough. A $5 tournament on PokerStars or UltimateBet can net the winner $1-2k. You just have to get through the other thousand people first.
As I type, I'm getting bitched at by some guy.
I raise with pocket jacks to 4xBB, and defends his blind with T6s. Flop puts two of his suit on the board, he bets minimum, I know what he has and raise to the pot size, he foolishly calls, catches his flush on the turn and goes all-in. I stupidly call, and catch my jack on the river to make a boat. Serves him right to play that trash.
BobbyRobby
Member
Raw64life said:
I'd download a good poker program, and play using fake money. When you feel ready, deposit some real cash.
Just don't play a no limit cash game till you get the hang of things. Sit and go's are a good way to get some good no limit action in, and lessen the risk.
.5/1 limit poker at pacific seems to be the easiest to win game in my opinion, and higher limits there might also be just as easy. I had my best session there on Sunday, and I even lost second best flush, and another decent flush for $35 total in pots, so it could of been a lot better.
It does take time to learn, I was slowly losing at the beginning learning to play, but now I have been winning most of the time. Want to move up limits at some point, but never quite get the comfort factor and looseness I need at 1/2 limits.
As far as reading books, I never have, but did read forums. Get some experience in while you reading books is a good idea, need to get a taste before you jump into reading books.
.5/1 limit poker at pacific seems to be the easiest to win game in my opinion, and higher limits there might also be just as easy. I had my best session there on Sunday, and I even lost second best flush, and another decent flush for $35 total in pots, so it could of been a lot better.
It does take time to learn, I was slowly losing at the beginning learning to play, but now I have been winning most of the time. Want to move up limits at some point, but never quite get the comfort factor and looseness I need at 1/2 limits.
As far as reading books, I never have, but did read forums. Get some experience in while you reading books is a good idea, need to get a taste before you jump into reading books.
How is Harrington on Hold Em? I've been meaning to take a look at it at the bookstore but I always seem to forget.
I've read a few chapters from Super System and found them pretty enjoyable. If it teaches you anything it's to be aggressive, which may not be that good until you have a good knowldege of playing first. I've been meaning to look at Super System 2 also.
Online, I like to read articles and forums posted at:
http://fullcontactpoker.com/
http://www.pokerpages.com/index.htm
I like reading about how people played at tournaments and try to determine why they made certain decisions.
Once you have the basic knowledge for the game try getting a few games together with your friends.
I've read a few chapters from Super System and found them pretty enjoyable. If it teaches you anything it's to be aggressive, which may not be that good until you have a good knowldege of playing first. I've been meaning to look at Super System 2 also.
Online, I like to read articles and forums posted at:
http://fullcontactpoker.com/
http://www.pokerpages.com/index.htm
I like reading about how people played at tournaments and try to determine why they made certain decisions.
Once you have the basic knowledge for the game try getting a few games together with your friends.
Thanks guys, haven't played poker in a bit, and this thread made me want to play, so I sat down for some $1/2 limit holdem on pacific. Let me tell you sometimes hands just drop in your lap (skip this if you are not interested in certain hands)
I was dealt 4-5 in small blind twice, both times lots of people in the pot. Typically don't call 4-5 small blind no matter what, but sort slightly tilted over a couple earlier hands. Anyway, Flop comes A23 rainbow. Come out betting, 5 callers. Bet the turn, 2 callers, and third person raises, I rereaise, two people drop (maybe should not of reraised, but flush draw and board pairing might of helped someone, so people might drop on the reraise). Bet out on river, and pick up a nice $34 pot.
Second time, again dealt 4-5 on the small blind. About 5 callers I complete small blind, big blind raises, I call the raise since other 5 people called. Bingo, flop comes 355. Bet in first position, 4 callers. Turn comes 4, got the full house. Bet again, 4 callers again. River brings a 2 (perfect card) (someone has the straight). I bet, second guy raises, third guy reraises, 4th folds, I cap it on the river. Perfect $46 pot.
2 hands within 20 minutes of each other, $80 in pots That is why poker is great.
Of course I should also share the hands that really suck..... but that is a different day.
I was dealt 4-5 in small blind twice, both times lots of people in the pot. Typically don't call 4-5 small blind no matter what, but sort slightly tilted over a couple earlier hands. Anyway, Flop comes A23 rainbow. Come out betting, 5 callers. Bet the turn, 2 callers, and third person raises, I rereaise, two people drop (maybe should not of reraised, but flush draw and board pairing might of helped someone, so people might drop on the reraise). Bet out on river, and pick up a nice $34 pot.
Second time, again dealt 4-5 on the small blind. About 5 callers I complete small blind, big blind raises, I call the raise since other 5 people called. Bingo, flop comes 355. Bet in first position, 4 callers. Turn comes 4, got the full house. Bet again, 4 callers again. River brings a 2 (perfect card) (someone has the straight). I bet, second guy raises, third guy reraises, 4th folds, I cap it on the river. Perfect $46 pot.
2 hands within 20 minutes of each other, $80 in pots That is why poker is great.
Of course I should also share the hands that really suck..... but that is a different day.
Harrington on Hold'em is great. It probably has the most comprehensive hand examples of any poker book I've ever read. It's a bit thin on fourth and fifth street play, but it covers everything else pretty well.keiichi said:
I'd recommend reading Sklansky's Tournament Poker For Advanced Players first, though.
With a lot of players in the pot ahead of you, 4-5 suited is an easy, easy call to make in the SB. Of course, you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand, but you'll be mucking if the flop misses you, anyway.marko said:
Anyways, congrats on the big wins at Pacific. Don't you love how the guys there call down anything with absolutely no hand?
At any rate, I think the best strategy is to read a good book but at the same time find a friendly tournament no-limit game (preferably with friends). People are dumbasses in meaningless free online games, but I think they play more "realistically" when there is at least a little bit of pride and money on the line.
Is there a site to go to that will run down all the potential hands and possibilities, without making you read a ton of text? Like....what if I have a mid-level suited pocket (let's say 8-9 of spades) and there are two spades on the flop? What are the odds that I can make the flush, and what is the appropriate bet (assuming limited straight possibilities, like a J-5-6 flop)?
Is there a site to go to that will run down all the potential hands and possibilities, without making you read a ton of text? Like....what if I have a mid-level suited pocket (let's say 8-9 of spades) and there are two spades on the flop? What are the odds that I can make the flush, and what is the appropriate bet (assuming limited straight possibilities, like a J-5-6 flop)?
Roughly, you're a bit less than 4/1 to make your flush on the turn, and a bit less than 2/1 to make your flush by the river (assuming you play both the turn and river).border said:
The appropriate play varies, according to a few important factors: are you playing limit, or no-limit? what position are you in? what type of, and how many opponents are you playing against? how much money is already in the pot?
Another key point to remember - even if you do make your flush, you might already be drawing dead. Some could very easily be drawing to a higher flush.
Here's a good odds chart, according to the number of outs you have: http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds_chart.php
McLesterolBeast
Member
Flush draws on the flop are slightly worse than 1 in 3 (as in, that another of the suit will hit on either the turn or the river) and open ended straight draws on the flop are slightly better than 1 in 4 (same condition as the flush earlier). You rarely will come up to a situation where you need more precise figures than that. A weak grasp of the stats is almost worse than no understanding of it. Sometimes false interpretation of the statistics (or terms) leads you to an intuitively poor move that actually is a poor move. Three out of four times in a casino when you hear someone commenting about the pot odds, theyre doing so erroniously. Also note that three out of four times you hear people using fractions with respect to poker, theyre pulling the figure out of their ass.
You really wont learn much of anything from reading if you arent getting experience to go along with it. With that in mind, im well up for some 1/2 no limit, if any of you want to learn.
You really wont learn much of anything from reading if you arent getting experience to go along with it. With that in mind, im well up for some 1/2 no limit, if any of you want to learn.
Here's an idea: if anybody at GAF wants to play for money, we could always set up a cash or tournament table at one of the various poker sites, with a small buy-in.McLesterolBeast said:You really wont learn much of anything from reading if you arent getting experience to go along with it. With that in mind, im well up for some 1/2 no limit, if any of you want to learn.
I'd be up for it if there were enough participants.
Something is confusing me about that chart....how do you get a hand with 20 or more "outs"? Are Outs considered to be cards that will make your hand, or just cards that will marginally improve it? I generally considered Outs to be cards that would very directly improve your hand (cards that would bring you to within at least 1 additional card of a flush/straight, or matching cards that would make pairs/trips/quads).
If I have a shit hand (let's say 9 Club and 4 Diamond), does any diamond make an Out beacuase it brings me slightly closer to a flush? Using criteria like that, A-K suited would actually be "worse" than unsuited cards (purely in terms of "Outs").
If I have a shit hand (let's say 9 Club and 4 Diamond), does any diamond make an Out beacuase it brings me slightly closer to a flush? Using criteria like that, A-K suited would actually be "worse" than unsuited cards (purely in terms of "Outs").
Mister Zimbu
Member
border said:
Outs are cards that directly improve your hand to one you believe would be the best.
20 outs is rare, but the situations do occur:
You have KsQs, flop is TsJs4c
You have 6 outs to make top pair, 9 outs to make a flush, and 8 outs to make a straight. 2 of your straight outs intersect with your flush outs (the 9 of spades and the Ace of spades), so they don't count. 6+9+8-2 = 22 outs.
The situation happens alot more often in Omaha. The odds of hitting an out for all intensive purposes is the same in Omaha (a bit better).
Mister Zimbu
Member
Oh, and in the "get more experience" department, I can set up my IRC Hold'em tourney bot if any of the gaffers are interested in playing with each other. It's really the best way to get a private game going between us.
McLesterolBeast
Member
You shouldn't get caught up on that term.
Anything that improves your hand such that it's the leading 'made hand' is an out. If you have 4/8o, the 4's and 8's in the deck are only considered outs if the guy has pocket 3's or pocket 2's. You're only certain of how many outs you actually have when you flip the cards over after an all in.
Anything that improves your hand such that it's the leading 'made hand' is an out. If you have 4/8o, the 4's and 8's in the deck are only considered outs if the guy has pocket 3's or pocket 2's. You're only certain of how many outs you actually have when you flip the cards over after an all in.
McLesterolBeast
Member
The first week i played online, that killed. Ive got pocket 7's and several people call the big blind, so i figure ill raise it 5 times the BB to knock out the limpers and get something heads up. Strangely, everyone calls. I missed the set, so im shit. At the showdown, you see one guy sitting with pocket aces and one guy with pocket kings.
I mean, if i had to pick one face that typified how i imagine these players - it would have to be the top right corner guy in party pokers default face images. That guy that looks almost robotic, dull as fuck and like the thought of raising hasnt passed through his head since he flopped the straight flush several thousand hands ago.
I'm not one to complain, because those players make it profitable usually. It's just frustrating when you can't keep track of who's a calling station fuck-tard and who's a legitimate player. It makes everything a lot more difficult than it has to be. That's why i prefer either higher stakes, or home games. With home games, you know how people play and you can rape the weak ones.
Cash games online are basically a test of your patience. The more patient you are, the better you'll do. Tournaments are the only thing worth playing at low stakes. The shitty players are forced into playing hands by the blinds, making them easy targets.
I played on Party Poker a year back lost $350 ...
My advice it to play TOURNEY's not straight hands. You would be surprised how much money you lose in a hurry playing $$$ per hand. Honestly there's something psychologically impairing about me playing $$$ per hand. I see my $$$ signs going up per bet, and feel some sort of obligation to stay with it no matter how much I put in. That will get you a loss fast.
Plus you seem to be at a marked advantage when you go in and cash in your money, say you goto the $20 limit tables ($20 is most you can have to start) but there are other players there who have been at that table all day winning and have about 6, 7 tiems as much money as you. It's much easier to bluff a guy out when they only got $20 and you bring them all in with like 1/6th of your own money. And it's pretty much impossible to outbluff someone when you have a lot les money than them.
Since then a few months later I started playing tourney's on Party Poker, and am relatively decent. I think I stopped when I was down 4 or 5 dollars, after a crapload of tournaments, I just got tired of it. I would be ahead $20, $30 if there wasn't fees and the rake (what they take out of each pot). I just can't seem to overcompensate for it and get ahead consistently. I usally rotate down $10-$15 ... then win it back .. and go through that cycle over and over again. I've probably played 20-25 times during that time and thats a dollar fee a game, and the rake is a good amount of money taken from the pot.
I would probably start playing again if I found a cheaper online service, because Party Poker's fees are just ... too much.
My advice it to play TOURNEY's not straight hands. You would be surprised how much money you lose in a hurry playing $$$ per hand. Honestly there's something psychologically impairing about me playing $$$ per hand. I see my $$$ signs going up per bet, and feel some sort of obligation to stay with it no matter how much I put in. That will get you a loss fast.
Plus you seem to be at a marked advantage when you go in and cash in your money, say you goto the $20 limit tables ($20 is most you can have to start) but there are other players there who have been at that table all day winning and have about 6, 7 tiems as much money as you. It's much easier to bluff a guy out when they only got $20 and you bring them all in with like 1/6th of your own money. And it's pretty much impossible to outbluff someone when you have a lot les money than them.
Since then a few months later I started playing tourney's on Party Poker, and am relatively decent. I think I stopped when I was down 4 or 5 dollars, after a crapload of tournaments, I just got tired of it. I would be ahead $20, $30 if there wasn't fees and the rake (what they take out of each pot). I just can't seem to overcompensate for it and get ahead consistently. I usally rotate down $10-$15 ... then win it back .. and go through that cycle over and over again. I've probably played 20-25 times during that time and thats a dollar fee a game, and the rake is a good amount of money taken from the pot.
I would probably start playing again if I found a cheaper online service, because Party Poker's fees are just ... too much.
Mister Zimbu
Member
border said:
Nope. Think about it logically for a second- if the flop were Club, Heart, Spade, and your hand has a club and a heart, it's impossible to get a flush. Why would they count as outs?
An out isn't something that improves your hand, it's something that gives you a made hand which is likely the best at the table.
Example:
You have 4s As, and the board is: 2s 7s 5c Qs.
Your hand sucks right now. Let's take a look at your outs.
- There are nine spades left in the deck, that will give you the best flush possible.
- You have an inside straight draw. A 3 will give you a straight. There's four of those in the deck, but only three of them count as outs (because we already counted the 3 of spades before).
- Three aces are left in the deck that will give you top pair; this doesn't really count, however, because if someone else has an ace, you have kicker trouble. Because of this, it's up to your reads on the rest of the people on the table whether you have 3 more outs.
- Three fours are left in the deck. These are NOT outs. You'll have a pair of fours, but that will regularly be beaten by the others at the table.
So, depending on your opinion of the aces, you have either 12 or 15 outs. If we use the 12 number, that means you have a 34:12 chance of hitting your hand. If it costs you $50 to call, the pot should have at least $150 in it beforehand, or you're making a bad move.
This neglects to take implied odds (adjusting pot odds by predicting how much money you can extract by the others if you hit your draw) into consideration, but beginners shouldn't worry about implied odds yet.
Edit: Oh, and if you want a serious brainfuck, try counting outs and pot odds in Omaha 8.
McLesterolBeast
Member
Implied odds are incredibly important though. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time you'll be under estimating the value of your draws.
An easy way to do it is this: measure the ratio of input required to the your best estimate of what the pot will be at the showdown assuming you hit a safe out. Usually you can expect the bet to on the turn to be double that of what you're forced to call on the flop.
Your "outs" have to be safe for the equation to work though. Being on a flush draw, unless it's to the ace, is not necessarily safe. Even with a draw to the ace high flush, the rare circumstance where the guy has a set will skew your calculation a bit. In that case, you'd have to consider the joint probability of a flush hitting and the board pairing up (giving him a full house), and subtract it's weighted value from the estimation of your probability to win.
The same is true for the potential of him having two pair. You have to place a probability on that being the case, and then weight your win probability accordingly. So in effect, there are two probabilities taken into account. Your "read" estimation, and then the random factor of what cards will come out. If you incredible reads, then everything will invariably come down to math. The way you can spot a shitty player is when they know what the person has and still make a bad decision. The math SHOULD be the easy part.
An easy way to do it is this: measure the ratio of input required to the your best estimate of what the pot will be at the showdown assuming you hit a safe out. Usually you can expect the bet to on the turn to be double that of what you're forced to call on the flop.
Your "outs" have to be safe for the equation to work though. Being on a flush draw, unless it's to the ace, is not necessarily safe. Even with a draw to the ace high flush, the rare circumstance where the guy has a set will skew your calculation a bit. In that case, you'd have to consider the joint probability of a flush hitting and the board pairing up (giving him a full house), and subtract it's weighted value from the estimation of your probability to win.
The same is true for the potential of him having two pair. You have to place a probability on that being the case, and then weight your win probability accordingly. So in effect, there are two probabilities taken into account. Your "read" estimation, and then the random factor of what cards will come out. If you incredible reads, then everything will invariably come down to math. The way you can spot a shitty player is when they know what the person has and still make a bad decision. The math SHOULD be the easy part.
Not everybody has the patience to play cash games, or limit games. However, cash games is where the money is at. I've made ~1700 in the past eight months playing low limit cash games online, and at the local casino. If you're patient, and understand the dynamic of low limit games, you'll be able to turn up a winner most of the time.Hollywood said:
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