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Sony patents Depth Camera within a controller

onQ123

Member
I could swear I vaguely remember similar arguments made for the SIXAXIS back in the day.

It worked for a few games (I like Flower), but very few actually used the feature effectively.

That's the thing SIXAXIS & Wiimote was IMU controls as standard input for a console at it's Infancy , someone made a motion controller ( Le Stick ) in 1981 to emulate the old Joystick controls that was the standard in the Atari days but that was a 3rd party & no games was made for it it was just emulating digital joystick movements with a motion controller. so from 1981 to 2006 before a console used it as a standard impute vs dpad that replaced the joystick only a few years after it was introduced & was the standard on NES , SMS & so on & continued to be a standard on console games every since then the analog thumb stick made it's way into a standard controller in 1999 with the Dreamcast ( Calm down I know about the Dual Analog & The N64 thumb stick but Dual Analog /Dual Shock was introduced years after the PS1 was released & N64 thumb stick was digital much like the Joystick ) You also have controls like trackballs that was used over the years but have never been used as standard as a console's input , all of these controller inputs was experimented with in the 70's & early 80's dpad & analog sticks wasn't perfect the 1st few goes but they became standards & they kept using them until they came close enough to being perfect so you have to give IMU/ 3D mouse controls this same room to grow & not just say "it didn't work the 1st time so it's never going to work" Xbox was still having trouble getting the d'pad right even 20+ years after it was introduced as a standard , IMU controls are pretty much 2nd nature now in games & will be even better next generation Sony/Nintendo would be fools not to continue improving upon these controls now. Look how good voice commends work now with Alexa & Google Home but just a few years ago it was terrible on phones & so on but they didn't give up on it & now anyone can use voice commends.


Funny thing is that due to discouraging MS might skip out on making a next generation Kinect & Sony might slip in a cheap PlayStation camera that perfect full body motion controls.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Just make a box that plays games Sony, no need to go fucking up a good thing.

Thats the idea here tho. Having a built in camera makes every ps5 all the more VR-ready.

VR is the next frontier and will open up new gamin genres and experiences. Right now for ps4 vr people need
- ps move
- ps camera
- headset
- external vr box that connects via usb

Thats some sega cd + 32x shit. PS5 streamlining a couple of those is a big deal and would help VR become less of the niche gimmick that it is today.
 
Why people that don't care about VR won't simply ignore it instead of actively wasting their time trying to destroy it on social media?
You don't want VR? We get it. Nobody is forcing you to buy it.
Everytime something VR related is announced (or leaked) we get a parade of drive-by comments just bashing it.
.

Thank you.
I'm so bored of this too.
VR is here to STAY. Deal with it people.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Thats the idea here tho. Having a built in camera makes every ps5 all the more VR-ready.

VR is the next frontier and will open up new gamin genres and experiences. Right now for ps4 vr people need
- ps move
- ps camera
- headset
- external vr box that connects via usb

Thats some sega cd + 32x shit. PS5 streamlining a couple of those is a big deal and would help VR become less of the niche gimmick that it is today.
News flash:
NO ONE CARES ABOUT VR.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Im old enough to remember similar arguments made for the analog stick back in the day. That worked out pretty great. I`d rather they try new things than just offer the same over and over again. Some of it will work. Some of it wont.
Me too. Just not at a new system's expense. Release it as a peripheral and if it's meant to be it will be. That's what Sony did with the Dual Shock originally.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
How is that? you can make it dimmer or turn it off if you clever enough.

if sony would listen people like you we would be stuck with:

That's pretty hyperbolic. It would be like me saying because of people like you, we got the Wii, which ruined the fucking market for half a decade. Thanks dude!
 

Darius87

Member
That's pretty hyperbolic. It would be like me saying because of people like you, we got the Wii, which ruined the fucking market for half a decade. Thanks dude!
you seem very stagnant don't want to things to keep move foward i prefer to try new things even if they fail, and wii motes was good upgrade at the time coming after gamecube standart controller, so your comment doesn't makes any sense.
Then why is it tanking? Sales have fallen dramatically according to a report released earlier this summer. All major players saw massive drop-offs in sales numbers.
Tanking? lol, it's new technology how it could be that popular if it's not even fully developed, devs still figuring out new ways to makes games on it, that's what sony is doing by incorporating vr technology in one box.
 

onQ123

Member
Me too. Just not at a new system's expense. Release it as a peripheral and if it's meant to be it will be. That's what Sony did with the Dual Shock originally.


You acknowledge that Dual Analog was baby fed to gamers before becoming a standard input for consoles so what's wrong with 3D Air Mouse doing the same? on PS3 you had to buy the PS Move & Camera for this input so devs was limited to a sub user base if they wanted to use the Air Mouse controls, Then on PS4 you only had to buy the camera for full 3D mouse input so it was still a sub user base for devs if they wanted to fully use the 3D mouse input but if PS5 is going to make it standard & give devs a chance to create all games knowing that they have 3D mouse input over the full user base & they can make better games.

I remember N64 having GoldenEye 007 & Perfect Dark because the Thumb stick & Z trigger was standard while no one invested in big FPS games on PS1 .
 

CeeJay

Member
You acknowledge that Dual Analog was baby fed to gamers before becoming a standard input for consoles so what's wrong with 3D Air Mouse doing the same? on PS3 you had to buy the PS Move & Camera for this input so devs was limited to a sub user base if they wanted to use the Air Mouse controls, Then on PS4 you only had to buy the camera for full 3D mouse input so it was still a sub user base for devs if they wanted to fully use the 3D mouse input but if PS5 is going to make it standard & give devs a chance to create all games knowing that they have 3D mouse input over the full user base & they can make better games.

I remember N64 having GoldenEye 007 & Perfect Dark because the Thumb stick & Z trigger was standard while no one invested in big FPS games on PS1 .
It's all well and good putting these exotic features into a controller but the majority of third party devs don't end up using them. A third party dev wants to get their game played on as many devices as possible so plans their game from the ground up for the lowest common denominator. If these extra features are going to have an adverse effect on the cost and battery life and end up being used by only a small minority of games then it's probably not worth including them in the base model. Release an Elite or VR model with these extra features for after market sales instead but keep the base model solid and simple.
 

Aintitcool

Banned
The potential of tech like this in a controller similar to the iPhonex, is you could do facial capture ingame, you could do lip reading for virtual voice, you could do game commands via facial expressions. You could do 3d face scans for character creator, and it is not as much battery as a touch LED/Oled screen on the controller. It has lots of potential depending on the detail of IR rays.
 
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onQ123

Member
It's all well and good putting these exotic features into a controller but the majority of third party devs don't end up using them. A third party dev wants to get their game played on as many devices as possible so plans their game from the ground up for the lowest common denominator. If these extra features are going to have an adverse effect on the cost and battery life and end up being used by only a small minority of games then it's probably not worth including them in the base model. Release an Elite or VR model with these extra features for after market sales instead but keep the base model solid and simple.


You're not listening lol The dpad , analog sticks , triggers & so on was also exotic for years until they came standard on a console & devs made games that made good use of them .

Snapple Fact: at the moment there is more people using devices with IMU /Touch /Pointer for gaming than there is people using devices without IMU /Touch /Pointer inputs for gaming. Xbox One is the only mainstream gaming device out right now without IMU /Touch /Pointer as a standard control input.
 

CeeJay

Member
You're not listening lol The dpad , analog sticks , triggers & so on was also exotic for years until they came standard on a console & devs made games that made good use of them .

Snapple Fact: at the moment there is more people using devices with IMU /Touch /Pointer for gaming than there is people using devices without IMU /Touch /Pointer inputs for gaming. Xbox One is the only mainstream gaming device out right now without IMU /Touch /Pointer as a standard control input.
Oh I am listening, I just don't agree with you. Sure, everything on an existing controller had to be invented but there have been a damn sight more misses with gimmicky controllers over the years than hits. I also disagree with your Snapple fact as part of an argument for gimmicky controllers. On mobile a touch interface is ok for simple games but for anything complex it's at best sub-optimal. I certainly wouldn't agree that the touch pad on the DS4 is even necessary for the vast majority of games. In most use cases it could be done with a simple button. How many DS4 users would have jumped at a simpler design without the light or touchpad but better battery life? The minute that you start to compromise your controller to cater to a tiny amount of games of your system then you are taking a huge risk that might not pay off.
 

GermanZepp

Member
The potential of tech like this in a controller similar to the iPhonex, is you could do facial capture ingame, you could do lip reading for virtual voice, you could do game commands via facial expressions. You could do 3d face scans for character creator, and it is not as much battery as a touch LED/Oled screen on the controller. It has lots of potential depending on the detail of IR rays.

Something like dis?
 

onQ123

Member
Oh I am listening, I just don't agree with you. Sure, everything on an existing controller had to be invented but there have been a damn sight more misses with gimmicky controllers over the years than hits. I also disagree with your Snapple fact as part of an argument for gimmicky controllers. On mobile a touch interface is ok for simple games but for anything complex it's at best sub-optimal. I certainly wouldn't agree that the touch pad on the DS4 is even necessary for the vast majority of games. In most use cases it could be done with a simple button. How many DS4 users would have jumped at a simpler design without the light or touchpad but better battery life? The minute that you start to compromise your controller to cater to a tiny amount of games of your system then you are taking a huge risk that might not pay off.


Well lets see Wii took that risk 100 million sold , PS4 took that risk on it's way to 100 million sold , Xbox One gave gamers what you claim they would jump at but yet they are getting out sold 2:1 by PS4.


Facts
 

CeeJay

Member
Well lets see Wii took that risk 100 million sold , PS4 took that risk on it's way to 100 million sold , Xbox One gave gamers what you claim they would jump at but yet they are getting out sold 2:1 by PS4.


Facts
And the Wii was worse off for it as well IMHO. Without the ability to use the existing GC controllers it would have been awful.

So let me get this straight, are you saying that if the Xbox One had a touch pad the sales for the consoles would be on parity? I don't think the touchpad and light bar on the controller had anything to do with the PS4 running away with this generation. That is ridiculous to even try to twist things that way.
 

onQ123

Member
And the Wii was worse off for it as well IMHO. Without the ability to use the existing GC controllers it would have been awful.

So let me get this straight, are you saying that if the Xbox One had a touch pad the sales for the consoles would be on parity? I don't think the touchpad and light bar on the controller had anything to do with the PS4 running away with this generation. That is ridiculous to even try to twist things that way.

The world may never know! But what I do know is that people didn't jump at the controller without Touch & IMU input like you said they would ,

So I put my facts up against your emotions & as you can see your emotions don't hold any weight but nice try reality is a little different.


Your emotions tell you that Wii was worse off for using Pointer & IMU controls yet the Wii out sold PS3 & Xbox 360 with SD graphics coming from over clocked Gamecube processors, in fact Wii was basically the gamecube with Pointer/IMU controls & Nintendo went from only moving 20+ million with the Gamecube to moving 100+ million with the Wii .

Facts
 

Caayn

Member
I don't understand the benefit of "sophisticated" motion tracking within a two handed controller. The current DS4 implementation works fine for normal applications and in VR you'd be much better off with split controllers.

For split controllers I can understand it, even for non-VR use cases.
 

onQ123

Member
I don't understand the benefit of "sophisticated" motion tracking within a two handed controller. The current DS4 implementation works fine for normal applications and in VR you'd be much better off with split controllers.

For split controllers I can understand it, even for non-VR use cases.

Having absolute position tracking in 3D space with any controller is like being able to reach into the virtual world & you don't have to keep both hands on a standard controller at all times.
 

Aintitcool

Banned
Something like dis?
I doubt it will also have secondary cameras for color and making of such 3d scans, but yeah, bringing IR rays projectors onto a controller could bring game changing gameplay, Imagine winking your eye to roload a gun. Also this could maybe allow gamers who has handicaps to play with their face instead of hand and fingers. Or help gamers with bad hand cordination use facial expressions and or actions as inputs.

I think the nintendo 3DS even experimented a bit with this idea, in games like face training.
 
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Alx

Member
The potential of tech like this in a controller similar to the iPhonex, is you could do facial capture ingame, you could do lip reading for virtual voice, you could do game commands via facial expressions. You could do 3d face scans for character creator, and it is not as much battery as a touch LED/Oled screen on the controller. It has lots of potential depending on the detail of IR rays.
playing devil's advocate here, but you could do all of that with Kinect, and very few devs experimented with it. The tech is one thing, but you must convince people to use it. That's the hardest part.
 

Aintitcool

Banned
playing devil's advocate here, but you could do all of that with Kinect, and very few devs experimented with it. The tech is one thing, but you must convince people to use it. That's the hardest part.
True true true, but kinnect was all body scanning, and small detail was on people faces. This would be entirely for faces and maybe hand movement above the controller? like this companies product that also seemingly failed. https://www.leapmotion.com/ but is available.

Since iPhone came out with the hardware devs have been practicing with it. And it would not be as hard as when kinnect was new.
 
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CeeJay

Member
The world may never know! But what I do know is that people didn't jump at the controller without Touch & IMU input like you said they would ,

So I put my facts up against your emotions & as you can see your emotions don't hold any weight but nice try reality is a little different.


Your emotions tell you that Wii was worse off for using Pointer & IMU controls yet the Wii out sold PS3 & Xbox 360 with SD graphics coming from over clocked Gamecube processors, in fact Wii was basically the gamecube with Pointer/IMU controls & Nintendo went from only moving 20+ million with the Gamecube to moving 100+ million with the Wii .

Facts
How about the WiiU that also had all that?

OK, so you put a depth camera, touchscreen, speaker and loads of other VR specialist tech into into a PS5 controller (and console) which then raises the price of the console package, possibly significantly. Do you not think that this is then getting dangerously close to the problem that the Xbox One had with the forced Kinect peripheral that led to a lower performance more expensive machine? The PSVR has sold to less than 5% of the total PS4 owners out there putting it firmly in the niche category. Do you really think it's worth risking alienating your core audience to chase a niche market in the hope that it will keep everybody happy?

Another question for you... Seeing as you are looking forward to Sony taking bigger risks into VR technology for the PS5, will you be happy if their traditional AAA first party output from the likes of ND, Guerrilla, SSM, is reduced significantly in favour of getting them to develop bigger budget and bigger scale games to support PSVR2? If Sony want to grow the VR side then they are going to have to put out more meaningful full size content to attract more customers than the smaller scale offerings this gen. is that another compromise that you think is worthwhile?
 

onQ123

Member
The Wii U problem was that it was one big controller , now look at the success that Switch is having , About these features driving up the price I seem to recall Xbox One & PS4 controller being the same price unless I missed something. Also why blame Kinect for Xbox One not being as powerful as PS4? Sony also launched with a depth camera & all these control features that you claim would raise the price of the console & even when the Kinect was removed Xbox One wasn't cheaper than PS4. Xbox One short coming mostly came from their memory solution which made the SoC bigger than the SoC in the PS4.


Edit: You also seem to be lost because I haven't said anything about VR my whole talk has been about these controls being standard so devs can take advantage of them knowing that the whole user base can use them.
 
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CeeJay

Member
The Wii U problem was that it was one big controller , now look at the success that Switch is having , About these features driving up the price I seem to recall Xbox One & PS4 controller being the same price unless I missed something. Also why blame Kinect for Xbox One not being as powerful as PS4? Sony also launched with a depth camera & all these control features that you claim would raise the price of the console & even when the Kinect was removed Xbox One wasn't cheaper than PS4. Xbox One short coming mostly came from their memory solution which made the SoC bigger than the SoC in the PS4.


Edit: You also seem to be lost because I haven't said anything about VR my whole talk has been about these controls being standard so devs can take advantage of them knowing that the whole user base can use them.

For once I agree with you, you didn't mention VR but if not VR, what else would the primary purpose of a depth camera in the controller be? I didn't realise that anyone would think it would be used for something else entirely, please share what you think its primary use would be? With regard to your hope of devs taking advantage of these unique features. Good luck with getting anything other than first party and the odd third party to support them. History has shown us that they ignore them.

It was Kinect that made Xbox One $100 more expensive when it launched ($499), when it was removed they were the same price ($399) and also as you well know, the PS4 camera wasn't mandatory so didn't factor into the launch price of the console.

If you read my original comment, I never said that it was Kinect that made Xbox One less powerful than PS4, merely that including Kinect led to it been more expensive along with the fact that it was less powerful than PS4 as well. However, fun fact. Kinect did actually make the launch Xbox One less powerful than it would have been without it. When the Kinect was uncoupled the extra resources that were ring fenced for it were allocated for developers to take advantage of. If you think that adding the VR features into the controller and then the other breakout hardware into the main console is not going to affect its cost or is not going cause a compromise in other areas compared to what it would be if PSVR was completely separate then you are dreaming. Also, you didn't give an answer to the prospect of software related compromises that Sony will have to make to support both traditional and PSVR?

I would rather they just give us a straight forward no compromise traditional games console without any gimmicks.
 
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HeresJohnny

Member
You acknowledge that Dual Analog was baby fed to gamers before becoming a standard input for consoles so what's wrong with 3D Air Mouse doing the same? on PS3 you had to buy the PS Move & Camera for this input so devs was limited to a sub user base if they wanted to use the Air Mouse controls, Then on PS4 you only had to buy the camera for full 3D mouse input so it was still a sub user base for devs if they wanted to fully use the 3D mouse input but if PS5 is going to make it standard & give devs a chance to create all games knowing that they have 3D mouse input over the full user base & they can make better games.

I remember N64 having GoldenEye 007 & Perfect Dark because the Thumb stick & Z trigger was standard while no one invested in big FPS games on PS1 .
If they want to baby feed this to the market, that's fine with me. But the market had plenty of the hand waving gesticulating motion bullshit and it got sick of it. And as I've already cited, VR sales are tanking. Why would you attach VR as a built in cost to your meat and potatoes hardware if you were Sony?
 

HeresJohnny

Member
you seem very stagnant don't want to things to keep move foward i prefer to try new things even if they fail, and wii motes was good upgrade at the time coming after gamecube standart controller, so your comment doesn't makes any sense.

Tanking? lol, it's new technology how it could be that popular if it's not even fully developed, devs still figuring out new ways to makes games on it, that's what sony is doing by incorporating vr technology in one box.
Well, go have them fail on your own dime. I like my systems to succeed and control concepts that actually work. The Wii mote was actually unusable for entire genres, so I don't see how you can call it a "good upgrade" to the Cube controller, which you could play a decent fighting game on, albeit with some effort.

And you're just being a VR apologist. The sales numbers are going down, not up. That's reality.
 

TLZ

Member
Well, go have them fail on your own dime. I like my systems to succeed and control concepts that actually work. The Wii mote was actually unusable for entire genres, so I don't see how you can call it a "good upgrade" to the Cube controller, which you could play a decent fighting game on, albeit with some effort.

And you're just being a VR apologist. The sales numbers are going down, not up. That's reality.
It hasn't even properly taken off yet. Wires everywhere like you're in the matrix movie. Wait til it becomes wireless, much lighter and more accessible. I bet everyone will want to jump in then.
 

Darius87

Member
Well, go have them fail on your own dime. I like my systems to succeed and control concepts that actually work. The Wii mote was actually unusable for entire genres, so I don't see how you can call it a "good upgrade" to the Cube controller, which you could play a decent fighting game on, albeit with some effort.

And you're just being a VR apologist. The sales numbers are going down, not up. That's reality.
Yes wii and ps4 are failures because of touchscreen and controller that won't fit every genre. AMEN.
There's no perfect controller for every genre, the wii mote was good for what it supposed to do, i could apply your logic to mouse/keyboard or even standart controller which you could play a decent strategy game with some effort. reality is that vr here to stay like it or not, i suggest you to get one it may help with your ignorance problems.AMEN
 

Ar¢tos

Member
The world may never know! But what I do know is that people didn't jump at the controller without Touch & IMU input like you said they would ,

So I put my facts up against your emotions & as you can see your emotions don't hold any weight but nice try reality is a little different.


Your emotions tell you that Wii was worse off for using Pointer & IMU controls yet the Wii out sold PS3 & Xbox 360 with SD graphics coming from over clocked Gamecube processors, in fact Wii was basically the gamecube with Pointer/IMU controls & Nintendo went from only moving 20+ million with the Gamecube to moving 100+ million with the Wii .

Facts
Facts aren't important when they disagree with someone's beliefs. That's why we still have religions.
There are people in this world that still refuse to belief that the earth is round...

The only issue with VR is that the tech is not ready yet. It needs more processing power and better hardware/screens. Sony might have tried too early to bring it to the market, and those issues are the only reasons I never bought one.
Next gen has the potential to solve both issues, IF Sony invests enough in the software and in marketing. And Sony marketing choices are either nothing or all, impossible to predict.
 
Dear Sony,

All I want for Christmas is a box, a triangle, a circle, and a cross. One D-Pad and two analog sticks. Start and Select. Oh, and four numbered R's. Nothing else.
 
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HeresJohnny

Member
It hasn't even properly taken off yet. Wires everywhere like you're in the matrix movie. Wait til it becomes wireless, much lighter and more accessible. I bet everyone will want to jump in then.
And that's totally cool if it does; I actually don't have a problem with VR. I just don't want future hardware being weighed down by it because it was included needlessly. VR is and should stay a peripheral, and Sony is being stupid if they tie the next Playstation to something that may or may not take off, that's all I'm saying.
 

HeresJohnny

Member
Yes wii and ps4 are failures because of touchscreen and controller that won't fit every genre. AMEN.
There's no perfect controller for every genre, the wii mote was good for what it supposed to do, i could apply your logic to mouse/keyboard or even standart controller which you could play a decent strategy game with some effort. reality is that vr here to stay like it or not, i suggest you to get one it may help with your ignorance problems.AMEN

We just fundamentally disagree on what a controller is supposed to do. You think the controller is supposed to be something that dominates the entire experience, I think a controller should be an extension of the player's hand to the point that they forget they're holding a controller. Flailing arms around and waving inaccurately does not agree with my philosophy on controls, which is why I was never a Wii convert. The DS4 is fine as it didn't substantially add to the cost of the controller (at least not enough to make them raise the price of the machine) and didn't ass it up -- which is good because it became a pretty worthless addition to the controller overall. Now imagine if it had cost a bunch of money to implement and that manifested itself in a higher price of the hardware that prevented people from buying it. Then it goes from being a harmless, worthless addition to a crippling decision. It's best to stay with what works when what works works so very, very well.
 

Handy Fake

Member
So.

If the rumours are true and the VR tech is being bundled in the actual box, with the controllers being part of it...
Would this imply that the surmised $500 pricetag would include the VR headset? Since the bones of the thing are inside the machine itself and presumably the actual peripheral wouldn't be nearly as expensive as a PSVR, as is, is now?
EDIT: I mean of course the rumoured PS5 ^.
 
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Darius87

Member
And that's totally cool if it does; I actually don't have a problem with VR. I just don't want future hardware being weighed down by it because it was included needlessly. VR is and should stay a peripheral, and Sony is being stupid if they tie the next Playstation to something that may or may not take off, that's all I'm saying.
You seems one of those who never tried VR and looking for excuses for your decision, believe me vr is the future is just to early for hardware right now to fully utilize potential of VR tech, after playing vr the standart tv setup looks like a joke, vr is so much better if games right now which are on standart setup would be in vr with same gfx 60 fps the standart gaming screen would go downhill fast, and i hope that will happen with ps5.
We just fundamentally disagree on what a controller is supposed to do. You think the controller is supposed to be something that dominates the entire experience,
no i never said that you putting words in my mouth.
I think a controller should be an extension of the player's hand to the point that they forget they're holding a controller.
yes which DS4 does perfect job at that.
Flailing arms around and waving inaccurately does not agree with my philosophy on controls, which is why I was never a Wii convert.
if you don't like motion controls then it's bad news for you because with vr motion controls will be common in the future.
The DS4 is fine as it didn't substantially add to the cost of the controller (at least not enough to make them raise the price of the machine) and didn't ass it up -- which is good because it became a pretty worthless addition to the controller overall. Now imagine if it had cost a bunch of money to implement and that manifested itself in a higher price of the hardware that prevented people from buying it. Then it goes from being a harmless, worthless addition to a crippling decision. It's best to stay with what works when what works works so very, very well.
Which never happen with DS prices it was allways at 60$ but you seem to have a problem because it might happen by including touchscreen & camera? i'm certain it won't the DS3(sixaxis) to DS4 included touchpad & speaker and lightbar price remained the same. there's no need to think otherwise if things haven't changed what you don't like just ignore it be happy with standart buttons.
 

onQ123

Member
For once I agree with you, you didn't mention VR but if not VR, what else would the primary purpose of a depth camera in the controller be? I didn't realise that anyone would think it would be used for something else entirely, please share what you think its primary use would be? With regard to your hope of devs taking advantage of these unique features. Good luck with getting anything other than first party and the odd third party to support them. History has shown us that they ignore them.

It was Kinect that made Xbox One $100 more expensive when it launched ($499), when it was removed they were the same price ($399) and also as you well know, the PS4 camera wasn't mandatory so didn't factor into the launch price of the console.

If you read my original comment, I never said that it was Kinect that made Xbox One less powerful than PS4, merely that including Kinect led to it been more expensive along with the fact that it was less powerful than PS4 as well. However, fun fact. Kinect did actually make the launch Xbox One less powerful than it would have been without it. When the Kinect was uncoupled the extra resources that were ring fenced for it were allocated for developers to take advantage of. If you think that adding the VR features into the controller and then the other breakout hardware into the main console is not going to affect its cost or is not going cause a compromise in other areas compared to what it would be if PSVR was completely separate then you are dreaming. Also, you didn't give an answer to the prospect of software related compromises that Sony will have to make to support both traditional and PSVR?

I would rather they just give us a straight forward no compromise traditional games console without any gimmicks.

What make you think that absolute position tracking is just for VR? Do you think that these controls just all of a sudden activate when you put the VR headset on?

I'm not sure why this is so hard to click with some of you but having the depth camera in the controller means that 3D Air Mouse controls will be standard for PS5 so if a dev decides to use it they can, You wouldn't call Mouse controls a gimmick in a PC game so why do you feel that 3D air mouse controls on a console have to be a gimmick?



If they want to baby feed this to the market, that's fine with me. But the market had plenty of the hand waving gesticulating motion bullshit and it got sick of it. And as I've already cited, VR sales are tanking. Why would you attach VR as a built in cost to your meat and potatoes hardware if you were Sony?



If they added a depth camera to the controller that already has all these sensors inside of it it's clear that they are going for absolute position tracking & not gesture controls , And like I said before this is not just for VR .
 

CeeJay

Member
What make you think that absolute position tracking is just for VR? Do you think that these controls just all of a sudden activate when you put the VR headset on?

I'm not sure why this is so hard to click with some of you but having the depth camera in the controller means that 3D Air Mouse controls will be standard for PS5 so if a dev decides to use it they can, You wouldn't call Mouse controls a gimmick in a PC game so why do you feel that 3D air mouse controls on a console have to be a gimmick?

If they added a depth camera to the controller that already has all these sensors inside of it it's clear that they are going for absolute position tracking & not gesture controls , And like I said before this is not just for VR .

Which the vast majority of devs won't. A 2D mouse is not a gimmick, its a standard control method on any computer, just plug in a mouse and keyboard and you have standard devices that's capable of controlling lots of existing applications and games. Plug in an air mouse and what do you have? A device that no one is making software for anywhere I can think of outside of VR. It's something that you see in films like Minority Report and only really becomes useful when moving a cursor in a 3D space and we are back to VR again...

Please discuss these types of games outside of VR that a 3D mouse is going to be better for than what we already have?
 

onQ123

Member
Which the vast majority of devs won't. A 2D mouse is not a gimmick, its a standard control method on any computer, just plug in a mouse and keyboard and you have standard devices that's capable of controlling lots of existing applications and games. Plug in an air mouse and what do you have? A device that no one is making software for anywhere I can think of outside of VR. It's something that you see in films like Minority Report and only really becomes useful when moving a cursor in a 3D space and we are back to VR again...

Please discuss these types of games outside of VR that a 3D mouse is going to be better for than what we already have?

You seem to be short sighted , I already went through this explaining how games like Golden Eye was on N64 because the N64 controller had the thumb stick & trigger standard while PS1 didn't , FPS games wasn't important on consoles until consoles came with thumb sticks as standard control inputs , Y'all really think controllers should stop evolving after the dual analog thumb stick was added? devs work with the input that they are giving as a standard , Xbox is the only gaming company that has basically stuck with the same controller input for 3 generations everyone else move on & try to open up the next console for new gameplay ideas. well they tried with Kinect but that wasn't the controller.






Pong , Breakout & so on was big back in the day because of the paddle controllers

 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Weird to want that in a standard controller honestly. I could see it for a Move 2 though.

As long as it works 100%, I don't want the need to recalibrate or recenter/reset mid-game or to experience any drifting/mireading whatsoever. That was OK for Wii Motion Plus, no longer and not in VR.
 
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onQ123

Member
Weird to want that in a standard controller honestly. I could see it for a Move 2 though.

As long as it works 100%, I don't want the need to recalibrate or recenter/reset mid-game or to experience any drifting/mireading whatsoever. That was OK for Wii Motion Plus, no longer and not in VR.


The point of having the position tracking camera in the controller is most likely so that you wouldn't have to re-calibrate, if the depth camera is in the controller it will have many reference points like the TV , the walls , floor & ceiling vs the old way of just having the camera on top of your TV or whatever with only the light of the controller as a reference point. there is also the advancements in IMU that will be in the controllers.



Also why do you think something like this should be limited to VR? Absolute position tracking is one of the most natural inputs you can get into the virtual world. Imagine if a console got this completely right to the point where you feel like you're reaching in the game moving stuff around naturally? Now add the pressure sensors so it will be easy to forget that you're even holding a controller you will feel like you're gripping whatever they choose to superimpose over the controller in the game.


There is a few more pieces that need to be added to the controller after this to make it completely immersive & that's thermal feedback & ultrasonic sensors so that your finger movements can be tracked away from the controller.


 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I didn't say it'd only work for VR though? I love motion controls when done right. I'd be all over a Red Steel 3 that was like 2 but better with more precise controls even without VR (or better yet outside VR since locomotion is still a problem to overcome). I don't know how good camera motion tracking is which is why I said good, as long as it works 100%. Yes I know the theory of how it works, how well it's done in this case remains to be seen. If it's even done at all. Iirc the inside out motion tracking in the Windows Mixed Reality sets is fine, it's the controllers that pose the problems there (which are tracked by the cameras in the headset, they don't have cameras of their own) so that's promising for how effective the tech can be. It really needs to be foolproof though.
 
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onQ123

Member
I didn't say it'd only work for VR though? I love motion controls when done right. I'd be all over a Red Steel 3 that was like 2 but better with more precise controls even without VR (or better yet outside VR since locomotion is still a problem to overcome). I don't know how good camera motion tracking is which is why I said good, as long as it works 100%. Yes I know the theory of how it works, how well it's done in this case remains to be seen. If it's even done at all. Iirc the inside out motion tracking in the Windows Mixed Reality sets is fine, it's the controllers that pose the problems there (which are tracked by the cameras in the headset, they don't have cameras of their own) so that's promising for how effective the tech can be. It really needs to be foolproof though.

OK but what I was saying still apply for the standard controller vs PS Move , Give us position tracking that's good enough to just be natural, You wouldn't be swinging the controller around so all you would have to do is let go of one side of the controller to use it as a PS move.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I don't wanna use a 2-hand controller like the dualshock with one hand nor do I think it would be natural to "reach into" things with such a controller but that's me. Using it as a steering wheel or something though, that's neat (but doesn't need a camera, just good tilt/gyro sensors). Could work for plane games also and the like. Lair style but good, lol.
 
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onQ123

Member
I don't wanna use a 2-hand controller like the dualshock with one hand nor do I think it would be natural to "reach into" things with such a controller but that's me. Using it as a steering wheel or something though, that's neat (but doesn't need a camera, just good tilt/gyro sensors). Could work for plane games also and the like. Lair style but good, lol.

The difference is basically in your head once you look away from the controller , have you held a DS4 with one hand? I think you somehow got it in your mind that I'm talking about swinging the controller all around or something . I'm talking about bringing these controls into normal games , that's the point of having it in the standard controller .
 
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