The Faceless Master
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no, it's not like saying that, it's like saying tons of others had the chance to come up with the theory of evolution AND THEY ALL FAILED.plagiarize said:
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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.
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The environment surrounding this case has brought up two legal questions (well, relative to what you're quoting).Raist said:
1) The legality of a company removing features retroactively without some form of compensation.
2) Does a company have a right to kill-switch your HW.
plagiarize
Banned
well my original post wasn't talking about courts at all. i was merely saying that i strongly disagreed with the notion that Sony have 'got what they deserved'. i don't think that taking away OtherOS makes them 'deserve' having their system opened up to piracy.Raistlin said:What also should have been clear from my original post was that bricking your system, even if via download, would not be accepted by courts as being within the rights of a manufacturer.
You went on to argue against that ... only to then admit that a court would agree with me.
WTF are you even arguing. If it is your opinion that it's okay ... well that's your opinion. Obviously me and basically everyone else are going to shit all over said opinion, but yeah it's your opinion.
What's confusing here is that my original post was specifically talking about the courts. I mean, I'm not sure how much clearer "That's where you are nuts. And I'm quite sure courts would agree." can be :lol
it wasn't addressing anyone specifically, it was addressing a point of view i've seen echoed a few times.
i ended my post by stating my feelings on what i think it's right for a consumer to do (basically, just about anything short of piracy) and what i think its okay for a platform holder to do.
you told me my opinion of right and wrong are different to the courts. i never argued that point did i? i just joked that i wasn't sure that the courts would agree that i was 'nuts'. i wasn't saying that the courts wouldn't think Sony had done something wrong to purposefully brick systems. i was saying that the court wouldn't think i was nuts.
you said "That's where you are nuts, and I'm sure the courts would agree."
it was a joke. obviously not a clear one.
The Faceless Master said:
If everything went like it was supposed to, Sony would have used a real random number and none of this ever would have happened. I'm sure that if they implement remote bricking there will NEVER be any mess ups or technical snafus :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
As I have said before people. Sony left the door WIDE open. If they would have done things properly, NONE of this would have happened. This is their fault, and they are suffering for it.
(I know people are having trouble finding analogies for this... what about overclocking chips? Isn't that the same sort of thing?)
The Faceless Master
Member
they got more than they deserved, but they had it coming.plagiarize said:
plagiarize
Banned
so what is your point then?The Faceless Master said:
my point is that Sony do not deserve to have piracy on their system because of the removal of OtherOS. do you think they deserve to have piracy on their system because they removed a feature?
we can't say that piracy would never have happened if OtherOS hadn't been removed, just as i can't say that piracy would have happened anyway, but i'm not saying that. i'm just saying it could have happened anyway, so we shouldn't say that it ONLY happened because OtherOS was removed.
that's all.
jmdajr said:
Sony were supposed to use a random number to mask their private key encryption. They used a constant. The hackers just backed out the keys from the equations since Sony used a constant. They have Sony's own private keys. The PS3 is completely defenseless, like PC level open.
plagiarize
Banned
no, i understand it. you thought when i said 'I don't think the courts would think me crazy' that i was saying that i thought the courts would agree with me and consider it okay to brick modified systems. what i wrote wasn't clear on reflection, and i take zero offence at your response to it.Raistlin said:And my original post was talking about courts, simply saying that they would not hold up what you are saying as being legal.
How we ended up here is a blur
shall i blow everyone's minds now and say i think Sony *should* have to offer some kind of recompense to people as a result of the OtherOS removal?
opinions eh?
captmcblack
Member
jmdajr said:
Bigger than everything.
What they've discovered isn't specifically a hack, insomuch as it is the cryptographic key that allows anything to be signed as a legitimate PS3 software application.
This means the PS3 is completely, absolutely and irreversibly open - in theory. You wouldn't need to modify anything, flash anything, crack anything - it would just run whatever you signed because everything is now a legit app.
This is sort of PSP-tier.
The Faceless Master
Member
i'm simply saying what could have happened doesn't matter since we already know what happened and why. also, Sony has piracy on their system because of their incompetence too.plagiarize said:
H_Prestige
Banned
jmdajr said:
We have the ability (once some final issues are sorted out) to run any software on the ps3 and modify firmware with the same exact privileges Sony has. This is better than any hack.
He said interesting, not usable. It was nice to have, but almost worthless the way they ruined it.angelfly said:
Yeah, I meant the emulators and stuff. Everyone's saying it's the same as Sony software, but you still need to do something to your system first as easy and simple as it is.Raist said:If you're talking about emulators etc, that's why the CFW is there.
If you're talking about the CFW itself, well it's a patched version of an OFW, which you can install via USB sooo...
Oh, so that was you
The Faceless Master
Member
who determines what is worthless?
firefox, xchat and pidgin worked great in Ubuntu on PS3.
firefox, xchat and pidgin worked great in Ubuntu on PS3.
captmcblack
Member
Billychu said:
Today, that is the case.
But given that those keys allow absolute access to the hardware, you figure it's only a matter of time before we have all sorts of ways to run whatever on the PS3.
We have all hardware documentation, all software documentation, all access to the hardware, all access to system/OS keys...At this point, what we can and can't do on the PS3 is limited only by imagination, skill and time.
Honestly, the potential of that is fucking mouthwatering. The locked-down PS3 was parallel computing, folding, (originally) running Linux and playing back a lot of media out of the box. A totally unleashed PS3 could conceivably - when all is said and done - emulate or play natively every game ever released anywhere (outside of PC, Gamecube, Wii and Xbox games), play back every kind and every codec of media that exists (wirelessly, even), play back every kind of video and audio disc (short of Laser Discs and HDDVDs), run all manner of homebrew application...and do it in full HD/3D.
...fuck, my dick is hard
[EDIT: I thought new HW can't fix shit, because the key is built into every PS3 game as well. If they changed the hardware to use a new key, or changed the firmware to use a new key to validate applications, every existing PS3 game and hardware would instantly be useless!]
The Faceless Master
Member
meet me somewhere.captmcblack said:
FlashFlooder
Member
this thread makes my head hurt
captmcblack
Member
Raistlin said:
This is true.
That's why this wasn't just fail - this was EPIC fail, the absolute pinnacle of cryptological failure. And all Sony had to do to prevent it, was make the value that was returned when generating the key random and not constant (in this case, the value is always "4").
Sony had Area 51 locked up inside of Fort Knox, but they left the skeleton key to the entire compound in a safe labeled "HEY GUYS HERE IS THE KEY".
And then the password to the safe was "1234".
[EDIT: @Zoe, I have a 60GB phatty. My PS3 will play PS2 natively!]
[EDIT 2: @jmdajr, I have no idea how hard it would be to emulate those other consoles - but considering it requires beefy hardware to emulate those consoles on PC, I'd imagine the PS3 wouldn't be up to the task for quite some time - if ever at all.]
[EDIT 3: @Raist, nope...Sony's choices are to disable 40M PS3s and 10s of millions of existing game discs and PSN software permanently, or to fight with software that can be disabled because we have the master key. That's it, and that's all.]
captmcblack said:
Couldn't games use two sets of keys? One for older HW and one for "fixed" one? I mean, I have no idea whether it's possible, just a random thought.
captmcblack said:
Why do people keep saying that, as if the keys were written on the back of the console or something. It took multiple steps of hacking through security, bypassing stuff, and tools developed from leaked SDK to get there.
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