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[squatingyeti]

uh oh .. sorry

Spoiler

kip

I'm sorry kip, I cannot allow you to...holy fuck logout, wtf kip, OMG..do that

 

[Raist]

Probably too recent to run well. I'm no expert on emulators, but emulating a Gamecube is probably orders of magnitude more difficult than emulating an N64. Plus low amounts of RAM and a shitty GPU don't help.

As many people mentioned before, it's not necessarily a question of power, but rather compatibility between hardwares.

 

[KtSlime]

not having succeeded yet does not equate to a failure.

that's like saying that if Darwin hadn't discovered evolution no one else would have, because all the other scientists trying to understand diversity of life failed to come up with a theory.

...There is soo much wrong with this statement...

 

[plagiarize]

why is that? is the cpu architecture too different? too hard to emulate x86 platforms or power pc on the CELL?

emulation requires a much more powerful machine than the original. the type of PC you need to run a gamecube game at full speed is many many times more powerful than the gamecube was, and more powerful the PS3.

another way to look at it is this. PS2 emulation isn't happening on the PS3. sony have complete knowledge of all the workings of the PS2. people writing emulators don't have nearly as much information.

if the PS3 can't emulate the PS2 (even with a complete library of required information) how can it hope to emulate the more powerful GameCube or Xbox?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Until you get the YLOD!

yep, it happened to me!

 

[Glix]

Couldn't games use two sets of keys? One for older HW and one for "fixed" one? I mean, I have no idea whether it's possible, just a random thought.



Why do people keep saying that, as if the keys were written on the back of the console or something. It took multiple steps of hacking through security, bypassing stuff, and tools developed from leaked SDK to get there.

@ #1. Yeah, you figured it out! No one at Sony thought of that yet? (I know you say you have no idea, but if it was that easy, don't you think someone MAYBE posted about that already?)

@#2. You are pretty much wrong about that. Everything he did to find the keys is completely within his rights, and completely legal. You wanna start going after GAFers who overclock their chips now too?

 

[sajj316]

yep, it happened to me!

shii .. that happen just now???

 

[jmdajr]

emulation requires a much more powerful machine than the original. the type of PC you need to run a gamecube game at full speed is many many times more powerful than the gamecube was, and more powerful the PS3.

another way to look at it is this. PS2 emulation isn't happening on the PS3. sony have complete knowledge of all the workings of the PS2. people writing emulators don't have nearly as much information.

if the PS3 can't emulate the PS2 (even with a complete library of required information) how can it hope to emulate the more powerful GameCube or Xbox?

Ok I hear ya. Makes sense. But at the same time I heard a lot about the greatness of the CELL processor. I thought it could HANG.

 

[The Faceless Master]

@ #1. Yeah, you figured it out! No one at Sony thought of that yet? (I know you say you have no idea, but if it was that easy, don't you think someone MAYBE posted about that already?)

@#2. You are pretty much wrong about that. Everything he did to find the keys is completely within his rights, and completely legal. You wanna start going after GAFers who overclock their chips now too?

i overclocked my clock, now it's 5 minutes faster!

 

[Jobiensis]

Why do people keep saying that, as if the keys were written on the back of the console or something. It took multiple steps of hacking through security, bypassing stuff, and tools developed from leaked SDK to get there.

They made the private key easily solvable by not implementing a random number generator correctly. This is something that should not have been possible.

i overclocked my clock, now it's 5 minutes faster!

Can't wait for them to brick your clock.

 

[sajj316]

I'm sorry kip, I cannot allow you to...holy fuck logout, wtf kip, OMG..do that

Not that it matters .. probably just signed up to get screenshots of posts

 

[The Faceless Master]

shii .. that happen just now???

no, a few weeks ago. a ton of people had it happen over the holidays, people called it bloody kwanzaa.

 

[Raist]

@ #1. Yeah, you figured it out! No one at Sony thought of that yet? (I know you say you have no idea, but if it was that easy, don't you think someone MAYBE posted about that already?)

@#2. You are pretty much wrong about that. Everything he did to find the keys is completely within his rights, and completely legal. You wanna start going after GAFers who overclock their chips now too?

#1. Er yeah, whatever, bro. To happen it would require new hardware, for a start, and second it's not because an idea is simple that everyone should have come up with it 20 years ago.

#2. I wasn't talking about legality at all here. Reading comprehension ftw.
But anyways, no, it wasn't legal. See a few pages before if you want an example of laws stating why and what you can do with reverse engineering.

 

[Emitan]

As many people mentioned before, it's not necessarily a question of power, but rather compatibility between hardwares.

Gotcha. But I hope your post doesn't get those "Wii uses PowerPC, PS3 uses PowerPC, why PS3 no emulate Wii?" people.

 

[H_Prestige]

emulation requires a much more powerful machine than the original. the type of PC you need to run a gamecube game at full speed is many many times more powerful than the gamecube was, and more powerful the PS3.

another way to look at it is this. PS2 emulation isn't happening on the PS3. sony have complete knowledge of all the workings of the PS2. people writing emulators don't have nearly as much information.

if the PS3 can't emulate the PS2 (even with a complete library of required information) how can it hope to emulate the more powerful GameCube or Xbox?

It depends on architecture, not power.

The Wii is barely any more powerful than a Gamecube, yet it can run all of its games just fine.

 

[captmcblack]

Why do people keep saying that, as if the keys were written on the back of the console or something. It took multiple steps of hacking through security, bypassing stuff, and tools developed from leaked SDK to get there.

That's they whole "Fort Knox" thing I alluded to. There was massive security, until the most critical point - and then it was discovered that Sony might as well have written the keys on the back of the console. There is no encryption ever in the history of cryptology/cryptanalysis that isn't done with random values to protect the information. In this day and age, where even silly AOL and MSN people can brute force-attack peoples passwords with simple scripts that throw dictionaries in hours at them, you can't leave such an obvious thing undone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis

It's just stupid.

 

[plagiarize]

...There is soo much wrong with this statement...

then enlighten me. 'you have made mistakes but i'm not going to tell you what they are!' is how your post reads.

my knowledge is not infinite and if i've made a mistake or said something that isn't true, i'd actually like to know where my facts are off base. i enjoy debating because my opinions are not set in stone and may be based on things which aren't true, and because i often learn new things about them, and about the topics at hand.

 

[Emitan]

It depends on architecture, not power.

The Wii is barely any more powerful than a Gamecube, yet it can run all of its games just fine.

The Wii uses the same hardware as the Gamecube but overclocked. Same Broadway and Flipper chips. That's why Dolphin worked so well on Wii games without even trying, it's emulating basically the same system.

 

[Zoe]

Couldn't games use two sets of keys? One for older HW and one for "fixed" one? I mean, I have no idea whether it's possible, just a random thought.

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen anybody convincingly argue why that is though.

 

[plagiarize]

It depends on architecture, not power.

The Wii is barely any more powerful than a Gamecube, yet it can run all of its games just fine.

the Wii doesn't emulate the gamecube.

emulation requires an awful lot of horsepower. if the PS3 can run the code natively, it isn't emulation.

and it can't run PS2, GameCube and Xbox code natively.

 

[itxaka]

A totally unleashed PS3 could conceivably - when all is said and done - emulate or play natively every game ever released anywhere (outside of PC, Gamecube, Wii and Xbox games),

DosBox!

 

[plagiarize]

DosBox!

Scumm VM is an absolute certainty too.

 

[Raist]

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen anybody convincingly argue why that is though.

Well yeah, unless the new hardware has a complete revision that disables the methods that were used to find out the first keys.

 

[squatingyeti]

Not that it matters .. probably just signed up to get screenshots of posts

still funny seeing it. Also, has anyone browsed through and seen if "kip" posted at all? Would be great if he said something stupid.

 

[wolfmat]

Scumm VM is an absolute certainty too.

It only does… Zak McKracken!

 

[captmcblack]

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen anybody convincingly argue why that is though.

Anything done in software is preempted by the fact that people now have absolute software control of the PS3. Sony could create new keys, but they can be circumvented - a person could, for example, create a legitimate application or firmware that disables the need for a valid key at all.

Anything done in hardware is preempted by the fact that it would mean the hardware and software purchased by the 40 or so million current PS3 users would instantly be invalid and useless. Sony would be sued into the next dimension...either that, or the cost to recall and update every piece of outlaw hardware and software would bankrupt them 10 times over.

An idea that people have given is a house.

Sony owned a house. It gave people a password/key that was needed to open the door to the house and get inside, and stationed a bouncer at the door to ensure that only the right people with the right key could get inside. And once you got inside, just to make extra-sure, Sony had a guy inside to watch and moderate.

The jailbreak removed the bouncer.
The master key changed the lock so Sony can't get back in without warning.
CFW will remove the guy inside.

We are inside the house now, and we can let whoever we want in. In addition to that, no one can change the lock before we're in the house already. Finally, because we have the master key, we can give everyone access to the house without compromise. If Sony ever decided to replace a bouncer in front of the house again, everyone will be the right person because everyone has the master key.

 

[sangreal]

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen anybody convincingly argue why that is though.

Well there are two things. One, the new firmware that contains the new keys would need to be encrypted using the old key so PS3s can use it. Two, it doesn't matter if you use new keys unless you're going to revoke the old keys, making existing PS3 software useless. Otherwise the new firmware would still consider software signed with the compromised keys legitimate

still funny seeing it. Also, has anyone browsed through and seen if "kip" posted at all? Would be great if he said something stupid.

He has no posts. Probably just signed up to use the search feature

 

[LeCapitan]

Not that it matters .. probably just signed up to get screenshots of posts

Judging by Sony's recent mess ups, this might not be the case...

EDIT: Nevermind.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen anybody convincingly argue why that is though.

why bother with the new key? just re-sign it with the old key only.

 

[Zoe]

Well there are two things. One, the new firmware that contains the new keys would need to be encrypted using the old key so PS3s can use it. Two, it doesn't matter if you use new keys unless you're going to revoke the old keys, making existing PS3 software useless. Otherwise the new firmware would still consider software signed with the compromised keys legitimate

For the first, they could do away with the universal firmware update and have two branches available.

For the second, I would think compromised software would be an unavoidable loss just like offline consoles are. They've generated as much money as they're going to with older software (barring games with legs).

 

[Glix]

A network being secure, and not allowing cheaters is a feature.

Other OS is a feature.

You can't be upset about one being taken away, but then when it comes to OtherOS say "it wasn't a big deal that they took it away"

 

[Jobiensis]

I think the argument there is because they have the older key, it'd be possible to hack their way to the new key.

I haven't seen that argument.

I don't think it's feasible at all. I'm not sure the current TPM chip could have two keys for validation, they could create new hardware, but how would the old hardware run the new games.

Keep in mind, the whole TPM works because stuff is done in hardware, I don't believe they could issue a firmware update that does anything to the TPM chip.

A network being secure, and not allowing cheaters is a feature.

Implementing network security by limiting clients is fraught with problems. Peer to peer will always have an element were cheating/griefing is possible.

 

[plagiarize]

Well there are two things. One, the new firmware that contains the new keys would need to be encrypted using the old key so PS3s can use it. Two, it doesn't matter if you use new keys unless you're going to revoke the old keys, making existing PS3 software useless. Otherwise the new firmware would still consider software signed with the compromised keys legitimate




He has no posts. Probably just signed up to use the search feature

you could do this, but it's clearly a massive amount of work.

create a table of every single 'authentic' key, alongside a checksum table. before any old game is loaded, you run a checksum on the executable (or whatever) and make sure it matches.

this would enable them to lock up future firmware, but would be a huge amount of work. for anyone on a custom firmware, it would be simple to decrypt new versions of the firmware, and patch out this check, and then make a new custom firmware with all the features of the official one but still able to run anything.

anyone with their foot in the door would keep their foot in the door.

so as far as i can see, the best case scenario at the moment is the situation we had on the PSP for a while where all they could do is hope that people will upgrade to a locked out firmware and get stuck there rather than wait a week or two.

but i always feel that once you've blown the doors off, that the community will learn the workings of the system so well that any slight security flaw in any subsequent firmware will be found and exploited. that's been the case with the PSP. no matter how often they come up with something new, and lock it back up, the scene know the hardware too well for any fix to be permanent.

 

[Freyjadour]

This thread is a mess and a prime reason why the other thread has the rules it does.

 

[H_Prestige]

For the first, they could do away with the universal firmware update and have two branches available.

For the second, I would think compromised software would be an unavoidable loss just like offline consoles are. They've generated as much money as they're going to with older software (barring games with legs).

You really think Sony is going to prevent all existing ps3 software from running on their new hardware?

 

[Zoe]

You really think Sony is going to prevent all existing ps3 software from running on their new hardware?

I never said that. I took this:

Otherwise the new firmware would still consider software signed with the compromised keys legitimate

to refer to homebrew/pirated games.

 

[H_Prestige]

I never said that. I took this:

to refer to homebrew/pirated games.

But how can they prevent those from running without blocking out official software with it? They're signed with the same keys.

 

[Zoe]

But how can they prevent those from running without blocking out official software with it? They're signed with the same keys.

I said they can't prevent those from running. So they'd just ignore them.

 

[captmcblack]

Sony could - and should - try to make new games on the system phone home for validation.

Then again, I imagine you'd then be able to find a way to block that validation altogether like they do with pirated Steam games.

 

[The Faceless Master]

you could do this, but it's clearly a massive amount of work.

create a table of every single 'authentic' key, alongside a checksum table. before any old game is loaded, you run a checksum on the executable (or whatever) and make sure it matches.

this would enable them to lock up future firmware, but would be a huge amount of work. for anyone on a custom firmware, it would be simple to decrypt new versions of the firmware, and patch out this check, and then make a new custom firmware with all the features of the official one but still able to run anything.

anyone with their foot in the door would keep their foot in the door.

so as far as i can see, the best case scenario at the moment is the situation we had on the PSP for a while where all they could do is hope that people will upgrade to a locked out firmware and get stuck there rather than wait a week or two.

but i always feel that once you've blown the doors off, that the community will learn the workings of the system so well that any slight security flaw in any subsequent firmware will be found and exploited. that's been the case with the PSP. no matter how often they come up with something new, and lock it back up, the scene know the hardware too well for any fix to be permanent.

they can just modify the future firmware updates. there is no way to know the key/sig/hash of a future firmware beforehand

 

[wolfmat]

This thread is a mess and a prime reason why the other thread has the rules it does.

Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Emitan]

Sony could - and should - try to make new games on the system phone home for validation.

Then again, I imagine you'd then be able to find a way to block that validation altogether like they do with pirated Steam games.

And people without their consoles online can't play games?

 

[Zoe]

And people without their consoles online can't play games?

They could always make people call support just like with Windows.

 

[KtSlime]

then enlighten me. 'you have made mistakes but i'm not going to tell you what they are!' is how your post reads.

my knowledge is not infinite and if i've made a mistake or said something that isn't true, i'd actually like to know where my facts are off base. i enjoy debating because my opinions are not set in stone and may be based on things which aren't true, and because i often learn new things about them, and about the topics at hand.

Sorry, I have a degree in anth and get anxious when people don't understand the history surrounding Darwin and his colleagues, basically Darwin was one of many that already subscribed to the idea, and many were already proposing natural selection as the mechanism of change. Etc, etc. This is all very much off topic, so I will no longer continue, but I am sure Wikipedia or someplace has a fairly concise overview of the history and the ideas of the time.

In short: Darwin did not discover evolution, he was just the first to publish the mechanism of evolution which we call natural selection.

 

[Freyjadour]

Thanks for the heads-up!

No problem!

Really though it is quite difficuly to get any real information out of it with all the useless bickering going on.

 

[captmcblack]

And people without their consoles online can't play games?

Well, what else are they going to do?

Seriously, the only way Sony could be more fucked as it stands right now is if every user owned the pressing factories where the discs themselves are made. Everything you want to run on PS3 is valid now. Forever.

It's not just patched or cracked or hacked to appear valid - it actually IS valid. That's why this is bigger even than PSP. The security wasn't disabled - we now have full control and understanding/ability to revoke of the security.

Sony at least has control of the situation online, on their servers/on their end. They can issue one-time validation codes for original games, or make them phone home, or make games require a downloaded patch or something before it can be installed/launched, or something. I have no idea, and that - aside from what is going to be made for an open PS3 - is what I'm most interested in.

From a cryptanalysis standpoint, I am curious to see how Sony closes the door here.

 

[WTFing]

Well he was asking for fame. He got it +1
Now he must put his balls on the table. If he has any.
We'll see...

 

[Emitan]

They could always make people call support just like with Windows.

For every game?

 

[Zoe]

For every game?

I really doubt the average joe without an internet connection buys a game a day.

 

[Vorador]

they can just modify the future firmware updates. there is no way to know the key/sig/hash of a future firmware beforehand

The root keys for decryption are embedded in the hardware. They can't just change them.