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[The Faceless Master]

Digital cable hasn't been cracked in the US.

if you mean the technology, then yes. if you mean watching what's on digital cable for free, there's tons of places that stream that content as it airs and tons of ways to watch it after it airs too. it's like saying the Xbox 360 wasn't cracked by the DVDROM firmware since the integrity of the signed executables wasn't defeated.

 

[Metalmurphy]

do you think the majority of PC owners pirate games?

facepalm.gif

 

[The Faceless Master]

You also have the case where a guy got arrested for modding Xbox consoles:

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/20465/Student-Arrested-for-Modding-Xbox-Consoles

I am not sure if Microsoft is behind this lawsuit or if there is some other general laws that got him arrested.

you know that case was dismissed, right?

 

[plagiarize]

Go back to the 70s and that would have been a serious concern by content holders! But legally the answer was determined to be "no".

this is different though. this isn't about a device capable of copying things (as a VCR or Xerox was) this would be about a company that offered a form of copy protection which by not following their own due procedures, was completely comprimised.

pretend sony were a company that specialised in copy protection who you purchased copy protection from, who then didn't copy protect your game to the degree they advertised they would.

as the person who had paid for that protection wouldn't feel that you could hold the person who provided it liable?

i'm not sure of the terms of contract between publishers and Sony, but if its in the licensing agreement that Sony are responsible for providing the copy protection, there could well be grounds for a publisher or dev to sue.

 

[plagiarize]

facepalm.gif

he answered my question and i had no issues with his response. i genuinely wondered if he felt the majority of PC owners copy games, and he thinks the majority has at some point. he's probably right too.

but yeah, face palm away. it beats having to try and figure out what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[The Faceless Master]

this is different though. this isn't about a device capable of copying things (as a VCR or Xerox was) this would be about a company that offered a form of copy protection which by not following their own due procedures, was completely comprimised.

pretend sony were a company that specialised in copy protection who you purchased copy protection from, who then didn't copy protect your game to the degree they advertised they would.

as the person who had paid for that protection wouldn't feel that you could hold the person who provided it liable?

i'm not sure of the terms of contract between publishers and Sony, but if its in the licensing agreement that Sony are responsible for providing the copy protection, there could well be grounds for a publisher or dev to sue.

c'mon son, there's no way Sony (or any first party) would have a licensing agreement like that. let's not be ridiculous here, with the record of how many consoles have been cracked one way or another, a company would be insane to assume that kind of liability.

 

[captmcblack]

Keep moving those goalposts, brother. It's not like cable and satellite TV descrambling was a big business or anything. It was probably never worth more than a few hundred million dollars. Who gives a shit about that little money, right?

That industry existed 10 years ago because there wasn't a better way or alternative 10 years ago.

Nobody descrambled those things for the sake of the boxes. They descrambled them for the ability to pirate TV programs, live/taped sports and movies. Now, they can pirate TV programs, live/taped sports and movies via the Internet. There's an alternative, and it is better.

Descrambling boxes and shit are obsolete - as they should be, because the Internet does it better. This is very much like digital music vs. CDs (Internet did it better), online stores versus retail (Internet does it better), and so on.

If you're saying that it's different or "less pirate-y" because the media being pirated can be pirated in another way, you're crazy.

 

[KtSlime]

Uh, not at all, because unlike the music industry, they still have to provide the network infrastructure. The service is an ongoing thing, and its not only pirates that they have to deal with, but cheaters as well.

I ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that "convenience" might work on pirates (yeah, right...), but what about cheaters? how does that work on them?


Also, the "there will always be pirates" excuse doesn't really work. How many people were pirating PS3 games a year ago?

Sorry, I'm not sure what point you were referring to of mine. I said that it would be wise for Sony to not act like the RIAA, because they certainly can. As for cheaters, Sony can do other things such as: monitor games for cheating, ban cheaters, etc.

Captmcblack already responded by what I meant there will always be pirates.

It's not funny at all, actually. I hope Sony prevails in this. The compromise here could effect more than Sony's PS3 business in that it has the ability to seriously compromise Sony's brand integrity across the entire company.

That fact that any code can be signed and made to appear that it is Sony signing it is a very different issue from just piracy. The fact that the PS3 can connect to your home network, have access to credit information, a connected camera, authenticated access to Sony network services, etc. means many more vulnerability points than just copying a game.

This is not being a corporate apologist. People forget that there are people at Sony who worked hard to bring this to market, tried to create some "pro consumer" points (use your own bluetooth headset, keyboard, hard drives, etc.), not to mention the billions that Sony put into R&D to bring the thing to market, and that is being jeopardized thanks to a few with an over inflated sense of entitlement?

Go get 'em Sony. Hope you win big.

EDIT: Also, the difference between this and the iPhone store you cited in your response above is that the apps can be signed to make it appear that it is signed by Sony. The fact that this can run on stock, unmodified PS3's is a MUCH worse problem than the iPhone issues.

I didn't mean haha funny, as in "look at Sony being a doofus", I meant weird, as in "look at Sony, they won't stop digging their grave".

I hope Sony fails at this, we have a much bigger issue at hand than a few kids playing homebrew emulators on a computer sold as a toy hooked up to a TV. Consumer rights issues.

What Sony brand integrity are you talking about? The 'get two jobs' part, or the 'LOL all my friends are on Xbox so I will play there too' part? You are aware that every Sony product (playstation and otherwise) has had some form of piracy, in fact, Sony built their empire off of piracy with their CD-Rs, cassettes, VCRs, etc.

I can't follow you, are you saying pirates are going to hack other peoples PS3s to get photos and credit card numbers?

If by sense of entitlement you mean getting to keep things I paid for, then yeah.

And while there is a difference between the iPhone piracy and PS3 piracy, my point in it being worse for Apple was in regards to it being so much easier, not the technological method in which it occurs. Apple's is a much bigger problem because they have more content, the downloads are smaller so people are more likely to do it, and the method of getting them is easier. While Apple can plug a few holes, they really only last a few days/weeks between cracks.

Ummm, the main reason people pirate is because they don't want to PAY for the games/applications. Don't mix-up the things that the homebrew community (the minority) wants and the pirates (the majority).

As others have said, you have no way of quantifying who is the majority vs the minority. AND, I don't think the reason everyone pirates is because they don't want to pay. I believe it is a cost benefit relationship, certainly there are the people that pirate everything, however some of them have no money and would have never bought the item anyway, and others have all the money in the world but because it is easier to pirate than get it by legal means that is the route they take. I think you would be hard pressed to find people pirating things they have access to for free legally if it is easy to access.

 

[cRIPticon]

Of course you do. There are plenty of reasons to have it. That isn't really the point though. Unless you are in fact doing something illegal with the information, what's the problem?

Name one legitimate reason for anyone needing access to the private root keys that sign code that makes it look as if Sony signed the app.

 

[plagiarize]

c'mon son, there's no way Sony (or any first party) would have a licensing agreement like that. let's not be ridiculous here, with the record of how many consoles have been cracked one way or another, a company would be insane to assume that kind of liability.

the licensing agreement wouldn't say 'we promise your games will never be pirated' it would say 'we will implement this copyprotection scheme'. its like the Enigma machine, the code was unbreakable if implemented correctly.

Sony didn't implement it correctly. if they were contracted to provide copy protection and they didn't properly implement that copy protection why wouldn't they be liable?

this isn't a case of someone breaking their copy protection as (hypothetically) contracted. this is a case of that copy protection not being properly instigated (not encrypting the keys properly).

 

[Metalmurphy]

he answered my question and i had no issues with his response. i genuinely wondered if he felt the majority of PC owners copy games, and he thinks the majority has at some point. he's probably right too.

but yeah, face palm away. it beats having to try and figure out what the fuck you're talking about.

The comparison was beyond ridiculous.

Most PC owners aren't even gamers and you were comparing hacking a PS3, that has it's disadvantages, to achieve limited homebrew and/or piracy, to simply owning a PC.

 

[test_account]

I don't see what the difference is in releasing them or not. How about he just told everyone how to gain access to them? Would that still be a problem? In the end, everyone who owns a PS3 can gain access in the exact same way. It doesn't really make a difference if you're telling people the method or the info itself. The people who want to use them will have access regardless.

Unfortunately i dont really know how the law defines stuff like this, if it is ok to release info on how to do it, but not ok to release the actual product (in this case, the PS3 decryption keys). The result might be the same (people could still find the keys then as you say), but maybe the law defines it differently depending on how the info is being published.

you know that case was dismissed, right?

I didnt know that, thanks for the info! I see now that it got dismissed in early December 2010. But he still got sued (was it by Microsoft or was he taken on general law by the way?) for breaking the Xbox 360 (or was it Xbox 1?) protection by installing modchips. But good that the case was dismissed though, getting upto 10 years in prison for installing modchips seems like too much of a punishment in my opinion.

 

[Slightly Live]

Name one legitimate reason for anyone needing access to the private root keys that sign code that makes it look as if Sony signed the app.

One reason? If I want to run a homebrew application and it requires signing in a particular way to run on the machine.

 

[Dambrosi]

this is different though. this isn't about a device capable of copying things (as a VCR or Xerox was) this would be about a company that offered a form of copy protection which by not following their own due procedures, was completely comprimised.

pretend sony were a company that specialised in copy protection who you purchased copy protection from, who then didn't copy protect your game to the degree they advertised they would.

as the person who had paid for that protection wouldn't feel that you could hold the person who provided it liable?

i'm not sure of the terms of contract between publishers and Sony, but if its in the licensing agreement that Sony are responsible for providing the copy protection, there could well be grounds for a publisher or dev to sue.

...but they won't, since that would just be sending good money after bad. It just isn't worth their while. Otherwise, Nintendo would have been bankrupted slightly less filthy rich due to lawsuits over the Wii's fatally flawed security, which didn't even last a year after the console's release as far as I recall.

cRIPTIballwasher: The only reason - getting back an underused feature that Fat PS3 owners like me nonetheless paid for, that was illegally* removed for "security reasons".

Now, name me one good reason why I SHOULDN'T have full and unfettered access to MY OWN PROPERTY

Spoiler

and if you say anything about licenses or contracts I'll reach through my monitor and strangle you

Spoiler

just kidding

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Name one legitimate reason for anyone needing access to the private root keys that sign code that makes it look as if Sony signed the app.

... umm its about ease. It's a hell of a lot easier to sign have an app signed with the official key than trying to get a workaround. Look at installing homebrew on the PSP and the PS3. One is able to be signed with the official key and one isn't.

 

[Koren]

Piracy can be stopped? Name me even one device on this Earth - or even one thing on this Earth - which isn't perfectly replicable.

I'd say that they still haven't been able to fully crack the GemStar Showview/Video Plus system, which is just a 9-digit number code ^_^

(I find it really stupid that such a closed system is the one everyone uses... You can't produce codes, you can't use them for recording anything with a PC or anything like that.)

 

[The Faceless Master]

Name one legitimate reason for anyone needing access to the private root keys that sign code that makes it look as if Sony signed the app.

to sign our own apps so we can run them? like say i want to port Links to PS3...

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

to sign our own apps so we can run them?

BU BU BU YOU PIRATE!!!

 

[plagiarize]

The comparison was beyond ridiculous.

Most PC owners aren't even gamers and you were comparing hacking a PS3, that has it's disadvantages, to achieve limited homebrew and/or piracy, to simply owning a PC.

i didn't make a comparison.

i asked a question.

the person i asked the question was completely civil and responded. you then decided to jump up my butt.

 

[The Faceless Master]

BU BU BU YOU PIRATE!!!

i'm a Ninja, not a Pirate.

 

[Metalmurphy]

i didn't make a comparison.

i asked a question.

the person i asked the question was completely civil and responded. you then decided to jump up my butt.

So your question was simply out of random curiosity and you weren't trying to make a point, is that it?


"Please don't be ignorant. I'm pro-homebrew all the way, but let's not pretend the majority of people don't use it for pirating."

"do you think the majority of PC owners pirate games?"

 

[plagiarize]

...but they won't, since that would just be sending good money after bad. It just isn't worth their while. Otherwise, Nintendo would have been bankrupted slightly less filthy rich due to lawsuits over the Wii's fatally flawed security, which didn't even last a year after the console's release as far as I recall.

oh, i'm not saying i think anyone will, or should, i was just musing that there might be grounds should someone want to attempt it.

 

[plagiarize]

So your question was simply out of random curiosity and you weren't trying to make a point, is that it?

i wanted to know how he bad he thought piracy was on other open platforms, to get an idea of where he was coming from with his previous comments.

sometimes a question is just a question.

 

[test_account]

From what i understand, releasing all of these PS3 keys was not really required to enable homebrew. Just look back at the PSJailbreak, no PS3 keys were released then, but homebrew still worked fine I cant say for sure, but i would not be surprised if there was another way around this and still enable homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys.

 

[expy]

As others have said, you have no way of quantifying who is the majority vs the minority. AND, I don't think the reason everyone pirates is because they don't want to pay. I believe it is a cost benefit relationship, certainly there are the people that pirate everything, however some of them have no money and would have never bought the item anyway, and others have all the money in the world but because it is easier to pirate than get it by legal means that is the route they take. I think you would be hard pressed to find people pirating things they have access to for free legally.

There is no difference between these different groups you mentioned, they're still pirates. The reason doesn't matter. Also, even with a 'cydia-like' store, people will still pirate the shit out of that too, just look at the iPhone.

 

[cRIPticon]

to sign our own apps so we can run them? like say i want to port Links to PS3...

If you want to do that, there is a process that Sony has in place if you want to write apps for the PS3. it may not be the DESIRED route to it, but it a ligitimate (read: licensed) route. Using Sony keys, that sign the apps as if Sony did it themselves is terrible. Just becaus that's what you may want to do does not legitimize it in the eyes of the law or the license granted to you around the IP in the system.

 

[captmcblack]

Nobody "needs" knowledge.

But everyone wants it, and has a right to it - and if you can get that knowledge via reverse engineering something you own, that should be fine.

That is why it was fine with DeCSS.

Of course you don't need the key. But the key was in the PS3 - and it was found. Do we not have the right to know the key if the key is inside of something we purchased, and we found the key with our own savvy?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

If you want to do that, there is a process that Sony has in place if you want to write apps for the PS3. it may not be the DESIRED route to it, but it a ligitimate (read: licensed) route. Using Sony keys, that sign the apps as if Sony did it themselves is terrible. Just becaus that's what you may want to do does not legitimize it in the eyes of the law or the license granted to you around the IP in the system.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[plagiarize]

From what i understand, releasing all of these PS3 keys was not really required to enable homebrew. Just look back at the PSJailbreak, no PS3 keys were released then, but homebrew still worked fine I cant say for sure, but i would not be surprised if there was another way around this and still enable homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys.

if nothing illegal was done to find the keys, then why should it be wrong to release the keys?

we can debate whether anything wrong was done in finding the keys, but if its the case that no laws were broken in attaining that information, then whether it upsets anyone, or puts anyone in danger, or whatever, releasing that information isn't illegal.

at least as things currently stand.

 

[captmcblack]

I'd say that they still haven't been able to fully crack the GemStar Showview/Video Plus system, which is just a 9-digit number code ^_^

(I find it really stupid that such a closed system is the one everyone uses... You can't produce codes, you can't use them for recording anything with a PC or anything like that.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_recorder_scheduling_code

Nope, they got that too...but why would you want to crack VCR Plus anyway? Wasn't that to grant the ability to time recordings of shows?

 

[Ronok]

Name one legitimate reason for anyone needing access to the private root keys that sign code that makes it look as if Sony signed the app.

Play a backup of a game you purchased? :-/ Run your own code? You're also ignoring my point, and that is that it doesn't matter the reason as long as the person isn't using the private root key in order to break the law....

 

[Dambrosi]

From what i understand, releasing all of these PS3 keys was not really required to enable homebrew. Just look back at the PSJailbreak, no PS3 keys were released then, but homebrew still worked fine I cant say for sure, but i would not be surprised if there was another way around this and still enable homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys.

Uhhh...yeah, but PSJailbreak and other similar dongles were created using stolen information, copyrighted to Sony. Geohot's little firmware patch wasn't; it doesn't contravene Sony's copyrights, therefore it's perfectly legal

Spoiler

in a sane and rational legal system

.

 

[test_account]

if nothing illegal was done to find the keys, then why should it be wrong to release the keys?

we can debate whether anything wrong was done in finding the keys, but if its the case that no laws were broken in attaining that information, then whether it upsets anyone, or puts anyone in danger, or whatever, releasing that information isn't illegal.

at least as things currently stand.

Releasing these keys will open the PS3 secuirty and make it (most likely) unfixable. If the hackers could have enabled homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys, then Sony could maybe at least try to limit the piracy much better.

But as from a law perspective, i have no idea if it matters to release i.e a modchip or an exploit compared to releasing the encryption keys to a security system.

 

[plagiarize]

Uhhh...yeah, but PSJailbreak and other similar dongles were created using stolen information, copyrighted to Sony. Geohot's little firmware patch wasn't; it doesn't contravene Sony's copyrights, therefore it's perfectly legal

Spoiler

in a sane and rational legal system

.

and hopefully that's what will continue to have... the Wikileaks case makes me a lot more nervous than this one though.

it is Sony's responsiblity to protect their secrets. if they fail to do so and other people are able to legally figure them out... tough.

 

[The Faceless Master]

If you want to do that, there is a process that Sony has in place if you want to write apps for the PS3. it may not be the DESIRED route to it, but it a ligitimate (read: licensed) route. Using Sony keys, that sign the apps as if Sony did it themselves is terrible. Just becaus that's what you may want to do does not legitimize it in the eyes of the law or the license granted to you around the IP in the system.

there's nothing illegitimate about not doing it Sony's way. Sony's way is desired by Sony. also, Sony has no process in place for me or any other individual. they have a process in place for companies.

 

[captmcblack]

Releasing these keys will open the PS3 secuirty and make it (most likely) unfixable. If the hackers could have enabled homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys, then Sony could maybe at least try to limit the piracy much better.

But as from a law perspective, i have no idea if it matters to release i.e a modchip or an exploit compared to releasing the encryption keys to a security system.

But the hackers didn't release the npdrm keys, the stuff that would truly "enable" piracy (which was already enabled anyway). They did enable homebrew support without piracy to the best of reasonable ability.

But with this suit, Sony is kissing the beehive. You don't think they're going to keep those keys out of the public now, do you?

 

[cRIPticon]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh the irony. Laughter from the guy with the avatar, pimping the biggest closed wall DRM system on the PC. AndjJust because you laugh does not make me wrong. Let's take both arguments in front of a court and see who walks out.

I think the thing that bothers me most is that code can now be signed by anyone and it looks as if it is coming from Sony. This also means that code signed with this key identifies itself to Sony's servers as legit. Anyone who does not thing there will be an exploit trying to obtain server data is kidding themselves.

 

[plagiarize]

Releasing these keys will open the PS3 secuirty and make it (most likely) unfixable. If the hackers could have enabled homebrew without releasing the PS3 keys, then Sony could maybe at least try to limit the piracy much better.

But as from a law perspective, i have no idea if it matters to release i.e a modchip or an exploit compared to releasing the encryption keys to a security system.

look, morally we can argue if releasing the keys was immoral. clearly a lot of people outside of Sony stand to be harmed by this... but when it comes to diseminating freely available information morality shouldn't come into it.

freedom of the press, first amendment rights etc protect such a thing.

Sony designed a system where by if the keys were compromised the entire system would be irrepairably compromised. Sony didn't properly encrypt those keys.

people figured them out. they only cause as much harm as they do because of how Sony designed the PS3. they were only figured out because Sony didn't properly encrypt them.

releasing a modchip, or the keys or whatever isn't illegal... but what can be illegal is how the knowledge required was aquired.

say Sony accidentally handed out materials with the keys printed on them to a bunch of journalists. current laws state that the journalists can then print that information, and that Sony have absolutely no recourse not matter the harm that befalls them.

 

[test_account]

Uhhh...yeah, but PSJailbreak and other similar dongles were created using stolen information, copyrighted to Sony. Geohot's little firmware patch wasn't; it doesn't contravene Sony's copyrights, therefore it's perfectly legal

Spoiler

in a sane and rational legal system

.

I was just thinking about that it wasnt really required to release the PS3 keys to enable homebrew. It was more of a reply to when cRIPticon asked for one legitmate reason to release the PS3 keys (but i didnt quote anyone when i answered, sorry about that).


By the way, one question about releasing the keys being legal, is there any laws that says something like "you should have known what the concequences of your actions were"? And is it possible to be convicted if you knew that your actions could lead to abuse, even if your actions on itself were perfectly legal?

 

[The Faceless Master]

Uhhh...yeah, but PSJailbreak and other similar dongles were created using stolen information, copyrighted to Sony. Geohot's little firmware patch wasn't; it doesn't contravene Sony's copyrights, therefore it's perfectly legal

Spoiler

in a sane and rational legal system

.

why do people keep saying the information was stolen? the original Sony PSP Jigkick was sent out accidentally in a factory repaired PSP. the PS3 jig could have been stolen or accidentally sent out or just reverse engineered. plus, the exploit only uses the Dongle's ID. it does a very crafty trick with overwriting buffers to gain access it shouldn't have, it doesn't use Sony code, and a Dongle ID, like a Key, is just a number. it's not something that can be copyrighted or patented, and a trademark doesn't stop someone else from using it, only from trying to confuse their 'thing' with your 'thing', be it a product, service or something else.

 

[railGUN]

I think the thing that bothers me most is that code can now be signed by anyone and it looks as if it is coming from Sony. This also means that code signed with this key identifies itself to Sony's servers as legit. Anyone who does not thing there will be an exploit trying to obtain server data is kidding themselves.

Well, the thing that bothers you is Sony's fault, not fail0verflow or GeoHot's.

 

[plagiarize]

I was just thinking about that it wasnt really required to release the PS3 keys to enable homebrew. It was more of a reply to when cRIPticon asked for one legitmate reason to release the PS3 keys (but i didnt quote anyone when i answered, sorry about that).


By the way, one question about releasing the keys being legal, is there any laws that says something like "you should have known what the concequences of your actions were"? And is it possible to be convicted if you knew that your actions could lead to abuse, even if your actions on itself were perfectly legal?

not currently here in the US, though some people are trying to change that over the whole Wikileaks fiasco.

legally aquired information can be disseminated whatever the consequences. that's why they have to prove the George did something illegal in aquiring the information. even then though, if someone gives you stolen information and you did nothing to encourage or aid them in aquiring said stolen information, you can still disseminate it.

so in other words, the websites that George sent the information to can continue to share it, because they didn't illegally aquire it unless they paid for it, or help plot to aquire it.

 

[The Faceless Master]

But the hackers didn't release the npdrm keys, the stuff that would truly "enable" piracy (which was already enabled anyway). They did enable homebrew support without piracy to the best of reasonable ability.

But with this suit, Sony is kissing the beehive. You don't think they're going to keep those keys out of the public now, do you?

seriously, the days are counting down to someone releasing something called "NPDOA" or something with a similarly silly name.

 

[Dambrosi]

Oh the irony. Laughter from the guy with the avatar, pimping the biggest closed wall DRM system on the PC. And just because you laugh does not make me wrong. Let's take both arguments in front of a court and see who walks out.

I think the thing that bothers me most is that code can now be signed by anyone and it looks as if it is coming from Sony. This also means that code signed with this key identifies itself to Sony's servers as legit. Anyone who does not thing there will be an exploit trying to obtain server data is kidding themselves.

No, wait.

I think the thing that bothers me most is that code can now be signed by anyone and it looks as if it is coming from Sony.

Yeah...to a PS3.

Why should I care what it looks like to a PS3? It's not like I'm going to hurt its feelings.

Oh, and yes, you're very wrong. You're so wrong, in fact, that it's laughable. So, here I go: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[cRIPticon]

Play a backup of a game you purchased? :-/ Run your own code? You're also ignoring my point, and that is that it doesn't matter the reason as long as the person isn't using the private root key in order to break the law....

Not ignoring your point. The issue is that the private root key, that is tied to Sony's identity, can not be used without breaking the law. All code signed with this will look as if it came from Sony. Any liability incurred will be directed at Sony, even if it is easily dismissed, the legal costs and time will not be.

As for the backups issue, while technically illegal due to the DMCA, there was already precedent for this in the Fair Use Doctrine in the 1970's ( I believe). I guess the big issue I have is that the community is able to distribute code that appears to be authenticated by Sony.

 

[KtSlime]

There is no difference between these different groups you mentioned, they're still pirates. The reason doesn't matter. Also, even with a 'cydia-like' store, people will still pirate the shit out of that too, just look at the iPhone.

You can't get rid of pirates, what you can do is offer what I called 'fence sitters' who are would be pirates alternatives to pirating. That is all anyone can do.

We have evolved for millions of years the ability to watch something get done, and do it ourselves, we have evolved the ability to use language to be able to freely transfer information from one person to another. Humans have evolved to 'pirate'.

This piracy 'problem' isn't going to just go away because people with lots of money want it to. Removing the hurdles from gaining information/media/knowledge legally is the only way to combat piracy.

I have an iPhone, I know I can pirate software, I don't because:
A) I like certain things, and want to compensate the people that made those things I like
B) I have a warranty on my phone, and it is more important to me than saving 3 dollars by pirating Doodle Jump
C) It's actually more of a hurdle to pirate software for me than click the buy button when I see something I like in the appstore.

The media/software content companies are the ones that actually create piracy by putting up barriers to what they create. People lash out by pirating said software because their intrinsic natural rights to information are blocked.

 

[Raist]

But the hackers didn't release the npdrm keys, the stuff that would truly "enable" piracy (which was already enabled anyway). They did enable homebrew support without piracy to the best of reasonable ability.

You mean, like how geohot argued on G4 that his hack would not enable any form of piracy at all, while people are now running backups? Right.

 

[The Faceless Master]

No, wait.

Yeah...to a PS3.

Why should I care what it looks like to a PS3? It's not like I'm going to hurt its feelings.

Oh, and yes, you're very wrong. You're so wrong, in fact, that it's laughable. So, here I go: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

hey now, it is actually kind of dangerous. imagine if someone uses a DNS cache poisoning attack and releases a false PS3 firmware on their fake server that sends out a modified firmware (or even just bricks PS3's) that could be a disaster!

 

[plagiarize]

The issue is that the private root key, that is tied to Sony's identity, can not be used without breaking the law.

which law would that fall under?

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Oh the irony. Laughter from the guy with the avatar, pimping the biggest closed wall DRM system on the PC. AndjJust because you laugh does not make me wrong. Let's take both arguments in front of a court and see who walks out.

I think the thing that bothers me most is that code can now be signed by anyone and it looks as if it is coming from Sony. This also means that code signed with this key identifies itself to Sony's servers as legit. Anyone who does not thing there will be an exploit trying to obtain server data is kidding themselves.

And guess what else such a closed system like Steam allows me to do:

*Install games to my hard drive
*Off line mod
*Sales that put everyone else to shame
*Add any game to Steam
*Community features
*Mods
*Valve supporting indie teams
*And more

So yea, it may be a closed system and yet the benefits of IT make it a much more open system than that of Sony.

My PS3 is just that, IT IS MINE. I paid for it. I can use it as I like as long as its not hurting anybody else. I don't pirate. I don't cheat. It is my system. It isn't on rental from Sony. If I want to install a program that turns it into a talking robot I can do that. If I choose to install emulators galore I can do that as well. Sony doesn't own that console once I walk out of the retailer having handed over my money. You may choose to hand over your rights as a consumer to Sony but I choose not to.